To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[Der Alte]

Actually He did correct them in a number of ways:
1) He told the self righteous Pharisees, who thought they would escape hell, that they were headed there.
2) His teachings rejected the Sadducees belief about there being no hell.
Therefore, to use your own words, since "Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been" wrong.
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

As I said and which you have talked around but not addressed Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs

• The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell.
• hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away"
• All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them
• heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jew.
• When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them
• chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment
• "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
• The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,
• they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,
•"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched."
• Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed And their forms wasteth away in the nether world,"​

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

You rail against accepted scholastic sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud and continually post unsupported universalist scribbling from a site maintained by some anonymous person with no stated qualifications in Hebrew or Greek.

 

[Teshuvah777]

Luca we all struggle, nobody is perfect. But He see's our heart and He knows our intentions. How can anyone pass up heaven for eternity, verses a few messed up wacky years on planet earth? Compared to eternity, this aint nothin

We have a choice. Bottom line.

Do we really have a choice?

I've noticed when talking to rabid atheists that they have addled and very damaged minds. They can't follow an argument for even 3 seconds without sidetracking and they are loaded with pain, insecurity, and confusion. These are not intelligent people.

How can people have "choice" when they are simply too damaged and confused to even understand what they are choosing?

NOBODY with perfect clarity of mind could ever reject Christ and eternal heaven. It is an absurd and illogical choice!

 

[Solomons Porch]

Do we really have a choice?

I've noticed when talking to rabid atheists that they have addled and very damaged minds. They can't follow an argument for even 3 seconds without sidetracking and they are loaded with pain, insecurity, and confusion. These are not intelligent people.

How can people have "choice" when they are simply too damaged and confused to even understand what they are choosing?

NOBODY with perfect clarity of mind could ever reject Christ and eternal heaven. It is an absurd and illogical choice!

Yep we do have a choice, but we are to show them our God, not so much in word debates etc., but by our actions, love and mostly His supernatural miracle working power. But, I have talked with quite a few atheists and I have seen they are very intelligent (just my personal experience).

 

[Teshuvah777]

Yep we do have a choice, but we are to show them our God, not so much in word debates etc., but by our actions, love and mostly His supernatural miracle working power. But, I have talked with quite a few atheists and I have seen they are very intelligent (just my personal experience).

Believers who meet those qualifications are so rare I can maybe count on one hand how many I've met in my life. I'm certainly not one of them. My life is unimpressive and clumsy.

The overwhelming majority of people will never meet a Christian who is able to perform genuine miracles in their lives.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Believers who meet those qualifications are so rare I can maybe count on one hand how many I've met in my life. I'm certainly not one of them. My life is unimpressive and clumsy.

The overwhelming majority of people will never meet a Christian who is able to perform genuine miracles in their lives.

One word = Faith in Him and nothing else

 

[beebert]

Do we really have a choice?

I've noticed when talking to rabid atheists that they have addled and very damaged minds. They can't follow an argument for even 3 seconds without sidetracking and they are loaded with pain, insecurity, and confusion. These are not intelligent people.

How can people have "choice" when they are simply too damaged and confused to even understand what they are choosing?

NOBODY with perfect clarity of mind could ever reject Christ and eternal heaven. It is an absurd and illogical choice!

Correct. Which is why universalism is probably true. And I would like to add that christians are rarely more intelligent than atheists. No difference really. It is obvious based on what christians have done historically and continues to do. Some arguments by atheists, protesting against traditional rational theology about eternal hell, foreknowledge and predestination etc. are ABSOLUTELY valid. Those arguments should be taken seriously and are done rightly.

 

[beebert]

As I said and which you have talked around but not addressed Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs

• The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell.
• hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away"
• All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them
• heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jew.
• When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them
• chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment
• "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
• The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,
• they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,
•"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched."
• Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed And their forms wasteth away in the nether world,"​

You rail against accepted scholastic sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud and continually post unsupported universalist scribbling from a site maintained by some anonymous person with no stated qualifications in Hebrew or Greek.

This theology both goes too far in the rationalisation of Divine mysteries and too early on, it proclaims an interdict for knowledge, it asserts agnosticism. In this it is distinct from theosophy, which both more admits the irrationality of Divine matters and permits more the possibility of an endless movement in the cognition of these mysteries, but a cognition not through concepts. Theology however operates primarily through concepts, especially the Catholic school theology, so beautifully worked out. I term it a comedy, this following conception from the kataphatic rational theology. God is perfect and unstirring, having no need of anything, and as self-sufficing, all-powerful, omniscient and all-good He created the world and man for His own glorification and for the good of the creation. The act of the world-creation was neither evoked by nor answered any sort of need in God, it was the product purely of free chance, it nowise added up to anything more for the Divine being and nowise enriched it. God endowed His creature, man, with his fatal freedom, and sees in the freedom the worthiness of His creation and a likeness to Himself. Man however made bad use of his freedom, he rose up in revolt against his Creator, he fell away from God and in his fall he dragged down after him the whole of creation. Man, having transgressed the will of God, fell under a curse and the power of the law. The whole of creation groans and weeps. Such was the first act. In the second act begins the Redemption and there transpires the Incarnation of God for the salvation of the creature. The image of the Creator is replaced by that of the Saviour. But it is remarkable, that this whole cosmology and anthropology is constructed upon the principle of a pure monotheism, without any sort of relationship to Christ or to the revelation of the MostHoly Trinity. This is a dualistic theism, knowing nothing about the aspect of the Trinity within the Deity, knowing only the monarchic teaching about God, i.e. a teaching non-Christian. The comedy or play of God with Himself here involves also this, that God, having endowed man with freedom, in His Omniscience knew also all the consequences of this freedom -- sin, evil, worldly torment and suffering, the eternal perishing and the eternal torments in hell of an indeterminable, and evidently, enormous number of beings, created by Him for bliss. Man is rendered an insignificant plaything, innately having received freedom, but together with this there is imposed upon him an immense responsibility. He is great of stature only in his falling. For God everything transpires within eternity and in the act of world-creation, so that in eternity are predestined both the temporal and the eternal torments. This inevitably leads to the teaching about the predestination of some to salvation, for others however to eternal perdition, a teaching, to which Bl. Augustine had already inclined and which Calvin took to its conclusion. God in thus having created man, predestined him to eternal perdition, since He knows the consequences of freedom, He knows, what a man will choose. A man has received his freedom from God, he does not possess it of himself and this freedom is wholly set within the grip of God, wholly determined by Him, i.e. ultimately, it is fictitious. God awaits a response from the creature to His call, so that the creature should love God and dwell in a godly life, but ultimately it is that God is awaiting an answer from Himself, He plays Himself a game, since He Himself endows the freedom and He knows Himself the consequences of this freedom, for Him it is clearly apparent.

 

[ClementofA]

As I said and which you have talked around but not addressed Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs

• The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell.
• hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away"
• All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them
• heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jew.
• When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them
• chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment
• "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
• The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,
• they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,
•"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched."
• Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed And their forms wasteth away in the nether world,"​

This teaching is against what the Lord says in the Scriptures:

"All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them".

Is it saying people can get out of Gehenna? Like a Catholic purgatory? Is that what you believe the Lord teaches in Scripture?

Define heretics & oppressors. This teaching is probably against what the Lord says in the Scriptures:

"heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jew.

Who cares if the Lord agreed or disagreed with this:

"When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them"

Jesus did not believe all non Jews were headed to a "fiery pool":

"chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment"

Jesus used different language than the following. How long can "flesh" last in a fiery lake? What original ancient language word is translated "eternity"? Evidently the Pharisees used aidios, but Jesus used aionios.

""The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"

Jesus indicated dead sinners were in Hades, not Gehenna:

"The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,"

The Bible says they are judged at the great white throne, not from generation to generation:

"they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,"

Is this a Bible or extra biblical quote:

"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched."

Will the saints in heaven be looking upon the "carcases" of men in the lake of fire?

The Bible says Hades is cast into the lake of fire, not Gehenna. Gehenna is thought by many to be the equivalent of the lake of fire. If people are to be tormented in it forever and ever, how can it be "destroyed"?

"Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed And their forms wasteth away in the nether world"

It seems Jesus & His Scriptures disagree with almost everything you posted re alleged Jewish beliefs at the time of Jesus in the 1st century AD.

Therefore, to use your own words, since "Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been" wrong.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

This theology both goes too far in the rationalisation of Divine mysteries and too early on, it proclaims an interdict for knowledge, it asserts agnosticism. In this it is distinct from theosophy, which both more admits the irrationality of Divine matters and permits more the possibility of an endless movement in the cognition of these mysteries, but a cognition not through concepts. Theology however operates primarily through concepts, especially the Catholic school theology, so beautifully worked out. I term it a comedy, this following conception from the kataphatic rational theology. God is perfect and unstirring, having no need of anything, and as self-sufficing, all-powerful, omniscient and all-good He created the world and man for His own glorification and for the good of the creation. The act of the world-creation was neither evoked by nor answered any sort of need in God, it was the product purely of free chance, it nowise added up to anything more for the Divine being and nowise enriched it. God endowed His creature, man, with his fatal freedom, and sees in the freedom the worthiness of His creation and a likeness to Himself. Man however made bad use of his freedom, he rose up in revolt against his Creator, he fell away from God and in his fall he dragged down after him the whole of creation. Man, having transgressed the will of God, fell under a curse and the power of the law. The whole of creation groans and weeps. Such was the first act. In the second act begins the Redemption and there transpires the Incarnation of God for the salvation of the creature. The image of the Creator is replaced by that of the Saviour. But it is remarkable, that this whole cosmology and anthropology is constructed upon the principle of a pure monotheism, without any sort of relationship to Christ or to the revelation of the MostHoly Trinity. This is a dualistic theism, knowing nothing about the aspect of the Trinity within the Deity, knowing only the monarchic teaching about God, i.e. a teaching non-Christian. The comedy or play of God with Himself here involves also this, that God, having endowed man with freedom, in His Omniscience knew also all the consequences of this freedom -- sin, evil, worldly torment and suffering, the eternal perishing and the eternal torments in hell of an indeterminable, and evidently, enormous number of beings, created by Him for bliss. Man is rendered an insignificant plaything, innately having received freedom, but together with this there is imposed upon him an immense responsibility. He is great of stature only in his falling. For God everything transpires within eternity and in the act of world-creation, so that in eternity are predestined both the temporal and the eternal torments. This inevitably leads to the teaching about the predestination of some to salvation, for others however to eternal perdition, a teaching, to which Bl. Augustine had already inclined and which Calvin took to its conclusion. God in thus having created man, predestined him to eternal perdition, since He knows the consequences of freedom, He knows, what a man will choose. A man has received his freedom from God, he does not possess it of himself and this freedom is wholly set within the grip of God, wholly determined by Him, i.e. ultimately, it is fictitious. God awaits a response from the creature to His call, so that the creature should love God and dwell in a godly life, but ultimately it is that God is awaiting an answer from Himself, He plays Himself a game, since He Himself endows the freedom and He knows Himself the consequences of this freedom, for Him it is clearly apparent.

I hope you don't mind but I will ignore this off topic diatribe, which does not address the topic or anything I posted.

 

[ClementofA]

​

Nonsense they were NOT out-of-context as I said the vss. I quoted were 15-16 chapters after your out-of-context proof text, Rev 5, which is talking about events prior to Rev 20 and 21. So after the events in chap 5

"if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire." YLT Revelation 20:15 ​

Then, again after your proof text, we read in Rev 20:4 death is destroyed

YLT Revelation 21:4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.' ​

Although death is destroyed in vs. 4 there are still groups of people being cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

YLT Revelation 21:8 and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' ​

Where does the book of Revelation say the events occurring in it are written in chronological order? It doesn't. Meanwhile this is still staring you in the face & not going away:

and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13, YLT)

 

[Der Alte]

This teaching is against what the Lord says in the Scriptures:
"All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them".
Is it saying people can get out of Gehenna? Like a Catholic purgatory? Is that what you believe the Lord teaches in Scripture?

Maybe you can help me out, in which verse does Jesus say "You have heard it said All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men..." but I say to you...? But this is exactly what many Unis teach that some people will be punished in fire but the Lord will reconcile them.

Define heretics & oppressors. This teaching is probably against what the Lord says in the Scriptures:
"heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jew.
Who cares if the Lord agreed or disagreed with this:

Probably against what the Lord says..." That certainly rebuts something, not! You don't care if the Lord agreed/disagreed with this? But I thought Unis taught that everyone is going to be saved no matter what.

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them"

This verse shows that the ancient Jews also used sheol to refer to hell the same as Gehinnom/Gehenna. Sheol is translated hades in the 225 BC LXX.

Jesus did not believe all non Jews were headed to a "fiery pool":
"chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment"

The quote does not say what you claim it does. It would be most helpful if you would address what I actually posted.

Jesus used different language than the following. How long can "flesh" last in a fiery lake? What original ancient language word is translated "eternity"? Evidently the Pharisees used aidios, but Jesus used aionios.
""The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"

How long can "flesh" last in a fiery lake? How long did the Hebrew slaves last in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace? How long did the bush last in the fire? God is not limited to what what finite, fallible human's can conceive. If God does not want fire to consume something, guess what the fire does not consume it.
Speculating on which word the Pharisees "evidently" used is not evidence of anything but someone's desperation. The Greek word "aonios" does in fact mean eternal, unending, everlasting etc. as I have shown in my Link:[post #147] in this thread. I quoted from nine [9] Greek language sources which have not and cannot be refuted.

Jesus indicated dead sinners were in Hades, not Gehenna:
"The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,"

The Jews used Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol interchangeably. Sheol is translated hades in the 225 BC LXX. Jesus used Gehenna in Mark 9:43-48 for people being thrown into Gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die. That is what the Jews called hell. Jesus did not dispute this.

The Bible says they are judged at the great white throne, not from generation to generation:
"they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,"

The Jews knew nothing of a white throne judgement all they had was the OT. Can you find a white throne judgement in the OT?

Is this a Bible or extra biblical quote:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched."
Will the saints in heaven be looking upon the "carcases" of men in the lake of fire?

If you have read your Bible you should know. It is a reference to two OT scriptures. Had you bothered to read my post #212 you would have seen where I highlighted the scripture references in blue.

The Bible says Hades is cast into the lake of fire, not Gehenna. Gehenna is thought by many to be the equivalent of the lake of fire. If people are to be tormented in it forever and ever, how can it be "destroyed"?

What is "thought by many" is not evidence. While hades can be conceivably be cast into the LOF, the scripture you referred to says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14. Death is the point in time end of life. It has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. But there is a scriptural answer which does not require arbitrarily mixing literal and figurative in the same sentence.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

Both sentient beings, which I refer to as the angel of death and the demon of hell, can be literally thrown into the LOF but they have not died a first death so they can't die a second death. Thus the "second death" does not equate with physical death.

"Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed And their forms wasteth away in the nether world"

Quit picking though my posts and only addressing part of what is written. Read post 212 and the scriptures referenced.

It seems Jesus & His Scriptures disagree with almost everything you posted re alleged Jewish beliefs at the time of Jesus in the 1st century AD.

As I have shown you have refuted nothing.

Therefore, to use your own words, since "Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been" wrong.

Twisting my words making appear that I said something I did not say is a violation of forum rules I would recommend that you not repeat it.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

The only scriptures the Jews had, before and during the time of Jesus, was the OT. How they interpreted those scriptures, as I have quoted, is not "Jewish fables, and commandments of men." Therefore you out-of-context proof text does not apply.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Perhaps you should heed your own advice re: "Jewish fables, and commandments of men." when quoting and linking to tentmakers.

 

[Der Alte]

Where does the book of Revelation say the events occurring in it are written in chronological order? It doesn't. Meanwhile this is still staring you in the face & not going away:. . .

Oh very good when scripture as written contradicts someone's beliefs, don't change the beliefs, change the scripture to make them say what you want them to. I knew this argument was coming. You might have been correct but for one thing, how many times does the phrase "after this" or "after these things" occur in Revelation? I have seen nothing but false beliefs continually staring me in the face.

 

[ClementofA]

As I have shown you have refuted nothing.

LOL. I did. And most of your responses were off topic, as anyone with eyes wide open could see. Therefore they were irrelevant.

Twisting my words making appear that I said something I did not say is a violation of forum rules I would recommend that you not repeat it.

It's not twisting to use your own reasoning & follow it to its own logical conclusions.

Therefore, to use your own reasoning, since Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been wrong.

The only scriptures the Jews had, before and during the time of Jesus, was the OT. How they interpreted those scriptures, as I have quoted, is not "Jewish fables, and commandments of men." Therefore you out-of-context proof text does not apply.

The Bible says there were Jewish fables (myths). Are you calling God a liar?

The Pharisees had their oral traditions, which were not Scripture. Jesus rebuked them regarding their traditions.

For an example of Jewish fables or myths, you posted this which is nowhere found in the Scriptures:

""When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them"

That statement is just an opinion, a tradition of man, not Scripture.

Several of your other quotes were also Jewish myths or fables.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment,
He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.

Actually He did correct them in a number of ways:

1) He told the self righteous Pharisees, who thought they would escape hell, that they were headed there.

2) His teachings rejected the Sadducees belief about there being no hell.

Therefore, to use your own reasoning, since Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been wrong. So ECT is wrong.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[beebert]

I am ready to forgive all men on earth that harm me, as Christ commands. But if God isn't ready to forgive those that he foreknew before the foundation of the world that they would offend him and not turn to him before they die(therefore he predestined it to happen, because what God allows, he in a way wills, otherwise he wouldn't have created this world full of misery knowing what would happen), and if God predestined and created a hell prepared for all rebelious people where they shall be tortured forever for offending him(thereby allowing and wanting evil to exist forever, which by the way goes against scripture), then I can NOT forgive God. Period.

 

[Radrook]

I suppose...but why God torture people in hell forever, that is not love. That is cruel and sad.

Why do they have to be both eternal?

Please read this article:
Was the Doctrine of Hell Manufactured by Theologians?

 

[ClementofA]

A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

​

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

LOL. I did. And most of your responses were off topic, as anyone with eyes wide open could see. Therefore they were irrelevant.

IF,that's a big "if", I have said anything off topic it is incumbent on the accuser to identify such statements, if any, and show how they are off topic. Otherwise this is just blowing in the wind.

The Bible says there were Jewish fables (myths). Are you calling God a liar?

I'd be careful about making such assertions. Please read very carefully what I actually said.

"The only scriptures the Jews had, before and during the time of Jesus, was the OT. How they interpreted those scriptures, as I have quoted, is not "Jewish fables, and commandments of men." Therefore you out-of-context proof text does not apply." ​

Please show me where can any of this, by any stretch of the imagination, be understood as calling God a liar?

The Pharisees had their oral traditions, which were not Scripture. Jesus rebuked them regarding their traditions.

Already addressed, my response was either ignored or misrepresented.

For an example of Jewish fables or myths, you posted this which is nowhere found in the Scriptures:
""When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them"
That statement is just an opinion, a tradition of man, not Scripture.

You quite evidently do not know scripture from Jewish fables and myths. I asked you before to actually read my post #212. I highlighted the scripture, in blue, which the Jews interpreted as I have shown. Isa 14:9-10 quoted from three Jewish translations.

Targum Isaiah 14:9-10
9 Hell [sheol] from beneath is moved for thee, to meet thee at thy coming ; she rouseth for thee the mighty : all the rich in treasures, all the kings of the nations rise from their thrones.
10 All of them shall answer and say unto thee, Art thou become sick as we Unto us thou hast become like.
JPS Isa 14:9-10
(9) The nether-world from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; the shades are stirred up for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; all the kings of the nations are raised up from their thrones.
(10) All they do answer and say unto thee: 'Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?
LXX Isa 14:9-10
(9) Hell from beneath is provoked to meet thee: all the great ones that have ruled over the earth have risen up together against thee, they that have raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All shall answer and say to thee, Thou also hast been taken, even as we; and thou art numbered amongst us.​

The Jews consider other writings not in the Christian canon to be inspired.

Several of your other quotes were also Jewish myths or fables.

Meaningless assertion without specific evidence. But again I remind you that Jesus did not correct the Jews on any of the beliefs listed in my post #212.

Actually He did correct them in a number of ways:

Irrelevant.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Both good scripture but not relevant to this discussion without specific evidence.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Now this is where your proof text Titus 1:14 is relevant. Linking to/quoting from a website maintained by an anonymous person with no stated qualifications relevant to this discussion e.g. Hebrew, Greek, Bible history etc.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." ​

 

[Radrook]

Do we really have a choice?

I've noticed when talking to rabid atheists that they have addled and very damaged minds. They can't follow an argument for even 3 seconds without sidetracking and they are loaded with pain, insecurity, and confusion. These are not intelligent people.

How can people have "choice" when they are simply too damaged and confused to even understand what they are choosing?

NOBODY with perfect clarity of mind could ever reject Christ and eternal heaven. It is an absurd and illogical choice!

Don't forget to include those who claim Jesus is just the Son of God and not God himself. They too are said to be hurled into the bowels of hell to be roasted alive forever.

 

[ClementofA]

The only scriptures the Jews had, before and during the time of Jesus, was the OT. How they interpreted those scriptures, as I have quoted, is not "Jewish fables, and commandments of men." Therefore you out-of-context proof text does not apply.​

Jesus said the Pharisees' father was Satan the devil, they were children of Hades, and they taught false doctrines and the commandments of men:

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12). To a Jew, leaven was a bad word. It meant the silent working of evil. At Passover they had to clean the leaven out of their houses. Leaven infects what it touches and turns it into something entirely different. It works silently and slowly, almost unnoticed."

"...He said, “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:20)."

"...The average person thought God was exactly like a Pharisee, so Jesus had to deprogram them from the religion they had learned. He called the Pharisees “sons of hell” (Matt. 23:15) and a “brood of vipers” (Matt. 23:33). He told them that their father was the devil (John 8:44). You can envision how stunned the multitudes must have been when they heard Him say this. They had been following the teachings of the Pharisees, who were their religious leaders in the synagogues. Yet, Jesus was performing miracles before their eyes and was calling them out as hypocrites."

“Fence Laws”

"The Pharisees counted all the commandments in the Law of Moses and came up with 613 laws. If those 613 Old Testament commands weren’t cumbersome enough, they invented 1,500 additional man-made restrictions called “fence laws” to keep people from sinning. They assumed that the best way to keep people from breaking God’s Law was to build a fence or a protective barrier around that Law, even though the Lord never told them to do this. Because there were hundreds of these rules, the people were burdened down and miserable trying to keep them all. Jesus told the Pharisees, “You weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.”(Luke 11:46). The Pharisees taught you couldn’t carry “a burden” on the Sabbath, and they defined a burden as whatever you could carry on your little finger. Jesus made a play on words by saying, “You will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.” "

"Exodus 20:8-10 says, “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; you shall not do any work.” But what does “work” mean? To keep people from laboring on the Sabbath, the Pharisees felt it necessary to define work. And so they defined 39 types of prohibited work so that no one would break the fourth commandment. Here are some of their fence laws:

 You could not spit on the Sabbath because it would disturb the dust on the ground and you would become guilty of plowing.
 You could not swat a fly on the Sabbath because you would become guilty of hunting.
 A woman could not look at her reflection because she might see a gray hair and pluck it out, which would be doing work.
They created loopholes to get around some laws.
 If your house was burning down on a Sabbath, you could not carry clothes out of it. However, you were permitted to put on several layers of clothes as the house was burning, and you could leave without breaking their law because you were wearing them instead of carrying them!
 On the Sabbath day, you could not travel more than 3/5 mile from your house. However, you could leave food 3/5 mile from your home on the night before, which would make it permissible to travel twice the distance without breaking the law.

"Keeping these man-made fence laws actually became more important to them than keeping God’s Word. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees saying, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?” (Matt. 15:3) Jesus deliberately broke their fence laws to demonstrate that these commands did not come from God. It was as if Jesus was trying to create a gigantic chasm between them so that people could see the difference between truth and error. Jesus told them, “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!” (Matt. 23:24). The Pharisees were extremely careful to not eat anything unclean, so they would strain their wine though a piece of cloth, just to make sure that a gnat didn’t get in it. They shuddered at the thought of swallowing a gnat. Jesus said that they strained out a gnat, the smallest unclean animal, but didn’t seem to notice when they gulped down a camel, which was the largest unclean animal. Clearly their man-made traditions and fence laws were the gnats they had been straining, while not noticing God’s Law that they were breaking."

continued at:

http://storage.cloversites.com/makinglifecountministriesinc/documents/Who were the Pharisees_2.pdf

​

 

[ClementofA]

As I said and which you have talked around but not addressed Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs

• The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell.
• hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away"
• All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them
• heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jew.
• When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them
• chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment
• "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
• The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,
• they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,
•"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched."
• Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed And their forms wasteth away in the nether world,"​

You err.

Let's look at those alleged "Jewish beliefs", one after the other:

1. "The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell."

Jesus never used the word "hell".

2. "hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away"

The Bible doesn't say "hell shall pass away".

3. "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"

The New Testament obviously opposes the above myth.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

4. "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jew."

The New Testament obviously opposes the above fairy tale.

5. "When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them"

Says nothing about any endless punishment fable.

6. "chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment"

The book of Revelation speaks of a lake of fire, but no swimming "pool". How many people can fit in a "pool"?

7. "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"

Scripture does not use this language. It's a myth. Jesus rejected such. Assuming your 2nd or 3rd hand quotes are even accurate. If worms are eating their flesh, does God recreate it so the worms can keep eating it for "eternity"? Nice God you have.

8. "The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,"

That is another myth. In the Bible sinners are in Hades, not Gehenna, before the day of judgement.

9. "they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,"

The Bible says they are judged at the great white throne, not "from generation to generation".

10. "Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed And their forms wasteth away in the nether world,"

This isn't what the Bible says.

To sum up these 10 "Jewish beliefs" in one word: hogwash.

Therefore, according to your own reasoning, since Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been wrong.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf