Universalism...why not?

[Dartman]

You were 'thinking correctly as to what I meant'. Well done cowboy, and I mean that. But, and there's always a but...I really was just thinking more about proof from Jesus or in the NT scriptures.

But in checking your sleep/death verses in the OT, even though I do find that word to be pretty interesting and very broad in it's use in the OT at 191 times, and with over 28 definitions, but death certainly is one of them.

Remember, the NT is built upon the foundation of the OT. The nature of death, the plan of God, the rewards of the wicked and righteous, the promise of eternal life on a perfected planet .... ALL these key doctrines are consistent from creation to the 3rd heaven and earth.

So, you are a bit 'unorthodox' yourself then?

.... this might be one of the greatest understatements ever.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone here speak of the Lazarus/rich man story/parable as anything but a proof of hell after death. If that's what I hear you saying, that is.

The point of the parable is explained at the end. The Pharisees, and the vast majority of the Jewish nation, were NOT going to be persuaded to repent, and return to their God, even though Jesus was going to be resurrected from the dead!
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Dartman]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I think I was discussing Ecclesiastes 3 and 9 and what the author of that book said not Genesis.

1) You are incorrect about Ecclesiastes. It is NOT discussing any different outcome for "the body".
2) ALL Scripture MUST be harmonized with EVERY other text.

If you can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the Jews were hellenized and their views were wrong then your objection might be worth considering.

You have this backwards. Until YOU provide credible, verifiable, BIBLICAL evidence that the Jew's teachings match Scripture, their teachings are irrelevant.

First, deal with the identical language at the beginning of each parable in chapter 16, coupled with the declarations made in Matt 13:34 and Mark 4:34

Does anything in those texts refute anything I posted?

Yes.
The Bible states Jesus spoke in parables, and the context of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus clearly fits. The beginning of each of the two parables in Luke 16 are identical, which refutes your claims.

In Luke 16 Jesus' primary audience were His disciples not the multitudes.

Luke 16:1 Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions.​

Then you are going to point out something about the Pharisees.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.​

Jesus was talking to His disciples but the Pharisees happened to overhear it. After the Lazarus/rich man account Jesus was still talking to His disciples.

Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!​

You OBVIOUSLY are aware of the truth, but are fighting it! Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a DIRECT RESPONSE TO THE PHARISEES...... THEN he returned to speaking to the disciples .... like the text shows, in SPITE of your efforts to circumvent the evidence.

 

[ClementofA]

Yes, Jehovah/YHVH God is sharing His throne with Jesus.
Incorrect. Death is NOT a required ingredient for reigning.

The "end" comes "when" (v.24) reigning is abolished:

1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Since reigning continues in Revelation 21 &22, "the end" has not yet come:

"Let us see: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall
be therein" (Rev. 22:3). "And his servants shall serve
him" and "they shall reign for the ages of the ages"
(Rev. 22:3-5). "The Kings of the earth bring their
glory into the New Jerusalem" (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes,
rule, authority, and power are still present on the New
Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning,"

Since the "end" has not yet come in Revelation 21 & 22, death has not been abolished:

1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

So in Revelation 21 & 22 this has not happened either:

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[mkgal1]

I really don't understand the problem here.
Faith is:

a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religionb (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return (2) : complete trust

You seem to be ignoring the first definition, that faith is "belief and TRUST in and loyalty to God". I changed the emphasis, BTW.

Or, better still:

the Bible defines faith as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see”

I've responded to this one already, but I will repeat it....I believe this is speaking of hoping for God's full reconciliation of His creation to Him (when every tear is wiped away and there is no more death and mourning.....and all the former things have passed away). We don't see much of anything that resembles that.....right? That takes faith (meaning....trust).

So, how in the world is Satan able to have "faith" in Christ...Satan "knows" Christ is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and that he will bend his knee to Christ....

There is no "faith" necessary...

That is like you saying that you have faith that your boss is your boss. You have faith that Trump is president. You have faith that when you look in the mirror you will see the same face you always see.

This is not faith... Faith is putting your trust in the fact that Christ is the messiah, that He died for your sins, that He will forgive you from your sins if you ask. It is faith that when you close your eyes for the last time, you will open them to His smiling face and He will accept you for who you are BECAUSE you accepted His gift of salvation.

Faith is believing that humbling yourself and praying to Christ for forgiveness and asking Him to come into your heart will bring you eternal life.

If Satan knows all that....and will bow his knee because of it---why is he resistant NOW? What's keeping him (do you suppose....obviously we don't *know*) from bowing now?

You also just added in a lot more to the definition. Does Satan KNOW all that?

Satan KNOWS all these things. Even the demons that Christ purged from that poor mans body knew He was the Christ, they said "you are the Son of God" so Jesus shut them up so they would not expose who He was at a time when people were not to know by that source.

No, Satan needs no faith. Satan full well outright knows. Period.

I, personally, believe it's not quite ONLY about us "knowing He is Christ". As the one passage says, it's "believing God" not "believing IN God". To me....."reconciling ALL to Himself" is about humanity choosing Him....trusting Him....believing Him....joining with Him in His purpose.....on our own volition....so that ALL is restored back to the state of Eden (and that's going to take a LOT of "therapy" to achieve).

 

[ClementofA]

The restoration spoken by God's holy prophets is; the restoration of edenic conditions on earth, and that earth being the eternal home of the righteous ONLY .... made possible by destroying the wicked, and all their works, by fire. There are more than 75 verses describing this "restoration" in the Scriptures.
Your theory denies ALL of those words ".. spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

"Peter repeats this soon after, announcing the eventual restoration, in Acts 3:24: “all the
prophets […] foretold these days,” that is, those of the universal apokatastasis. In the immediate continuation of Peter’s speech, the fulfilment of this prophecy is linked to the accomplishment of the promise made to Abraham, the benediction of all families of the earth in his progeny. Now, this will be accomplished in the eschatological times as well, and will be an action of God. The same event is referred to in Ps 21:28–30, where it is prophesied that “all the families of the peoples” will adore God and “all the boundaries of the earth will (re)turn [ἐπιστραφήσονται] to the Lord.” " (Ramelli, p.14, in the following).

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian doctrine of Apokatastasis : a critical assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Book, 2013) [WorldCat.org]

Preview of The Christian doctrine of Apokatastasis : a critical assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena [WorldCat.org]

 

[Hillsage]

Website glitch repeat

 

[ClementofA]

eonian life is exactly what Jesus received at his resurrection, and is the same reward given to those in the first resurrection, AND given to those judged worthy after the judgement. But those judged NOT worthy are given eonian punishment!!
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

That punishment will last forever, just like eternal life.
It does NOT say the PUNISHING lasts forever, but the PUNISHMENT .... they will be dead forever.

Some alternate translations are:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

On page 30 of the following url/book Tom Talbott is quoted:

"The Gospel writers thought in terms of two ages, the present age and the age to come, and they associated the age to come with God himself; it was an age in which God‘s presence would be fully manifested, his purposes fully realized, and his redemptive work eventually completed. They therefore came to employ the term, ―αίώνίος,‖ [aionios] as an eschatological [doctrine of end times] term, one that functioned as a handy reference to the realities of the age to come. In this way, they managed to combine the more literal sense of ―that which pertains to an age‖ with the more religious sense of ―that which manifests the presence of God in a special way.‖ Eternal life, then, is not merely life that comes from God; it is also the mode of living associated with the age to come. And similarly for eternal punishment: It is not merely punishment that comes from God; it is also the form of punishment associated with the age to come. Now in none of this is there any implication that the life that comes from God and the punishment that comes from God are of an equal duration. 12"

From page 26 the passage in Matthew 25 is considered at:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Rajni]

It doesn't matter how many times you claim this, it still isn't true.

Or, it is true, and not everyone believes it.

Twisting "sermons IN the Bible", to; sermons that MIGHT be Biblical.

This is merely a dishonest claim.

Careful. I'm fairly certain that telling people that they're being dishonest for holding beliefs you personally disagree with is a violation of CF rules. It's along the same lines as telling someone they're not really a Christian if they say they are.

In a word, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is the source of evil, but quite on the contrary, Scripture says that God is supremely good and holy.

True, Scripture also says that He is good and holy as well.

Adam - again, here you are fundamentally in error, for you do not recall God's gracious gift of free will. Adam, like us, abused his free will for evil, and so do we through our continued sin and rebellion.

If Adam was perfect, then he would not have misused his allegedly free will for evil. And here's the thing: If a perfect Adam could ruin a perfect setting with just a flick of his free will, then who's to say this won't happen again in heaven one day (assuming we have free will in heaven)?

Once again, then, where in Scripture does it say that whoever, through sin, rebellion and unbelief rejects God's grace, namely Jesus Christ, will have life? Paul repented from his evil and believes in Christ.

Exactly! That's what "having life" involves. Repentance is a change of heart, and scripture indicates that God grants repentance, making it just as much a gift as faith, belief, and the salvation that accompanies them.

Scripture indicates that God is the one that begins the good work in a person. Paul was, apparently, still in the habit of, as Acts 9:1 puts it, "breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord" when he was literally knocked off his high horse by God and was changed.

So yes, to answer your question again, one can be in sin, rebellion, and unbelief one minute and have life (and thereby be changed) the very next. As I said before, if it can happen to Paul, who was the worst of sinners, it can happen to anyone.

Again, I'll add this question: If you hold that all will have salvation, do you believe that even the fallen angels will be saved? In which case, how do you get around 2 Peter 2?

I wouldn't rule it out, though I don't think all universalists believe that they will be.

Which part of 2 Peter 2 specifically are you referring to regarding this?

And yet again: Do you deny that it is good and righteous for God to punish evil and sin?

Dealing with evil and sin itself is one thing, throwing the baby out with the bathwater by tossing the whole individual into endless torment is another. I've said countless times already that wrongdoings come with their own punishments cleverly built right in (kudos to the Intelligent Designer, amirite?).

Even humans know to clean a container when it's dirty and replace the inferior contents with that which is good, rather than merely throwing the whole thing out. I'm really not interested in adopting a theology that renders God as less sensible than that in dealing with those created in His own image.


-

 

[Der Alte]

Remember, the NT is built upon the foundation of the OT. The nature of death, the plan of God, the rewards of the wicked and righteous, the promise of eternal life on a perfected planet .... ALL these key doctrines are consistent from creation to the 3rd heaven and earth.

And you think this is relevant to anything I have been discussing how?

.... this might be one of the greatest understatements ever.
The point of the parable is explained at the end. The Pharisees, and the vast majority of the Jewish nation, were NOT going to be persuaded to repent, and return to their God, even though Jesus was going to be resurrected from the dead!
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Right! Abraham in the place he was, explained Jesus' parable to his disciples who were the primary audience Jesus was speaking to. And they automatically understood that the "parable" was about the Jews not repenting after the resurrection of Jesus? When did this message get to the Pharisees, etc? When and how did it get to the Christians? As I said and repeat here every early church father who quoted or referred to the Lazarus account considered it to be factual. I don't think God let this important explanation wait for 2000 +/- years to be revealed.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

 

[The Times]

The god of Universalism is a Unitarian Universal messiah, who will bless the sins of the world and will accuse and persecute my Christian brethren of being fundamentalists and dead enders for Jesus Christ.

The manifestation of the Anthropos/ peoples of Sin is all to evident. True Christianity is being marginalised and condemned, with a concerted effort to destroy it from within and without by the forces of darkness.

This is the time where many that side with the beast powers that be, will be eternally condemned and sent to outer darkness.

God's people know who they are. The false accusers of my brethren are those who are not of God.

Though shalt not use the name of Christ Jesus in vein!

Away from me evildoers Christ Jesus will tell them, for these have not the concerns of God at heart, but their own callous pride, that is eating at them from within.

 

[Der Alte]

1) You are incorrect about Ecclesiastes. It is NOT discussing any different outcome for "the body".
2) ALL Scripture MUST be harmonized with EVERY other text.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You have this backwards. Until YOU provide credible, verifiable, BIBLICAL evidence that the Jew's teachings match Scripture, their teachings are irrelevant.

No the Jews inform us how the Hebrew scriptures should be translated not Christians, who do not anything about Hebrew, 2000 years later. Rather you have to provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the biased interpretation you propose is correct. Perhaps since you evidently have superior knowledge you can interpret this for us.
בטח אל־יהוה בכל־לבך ואל־בינתך אל־תשׁען׃

Yes.
The Bible states Jesus spoke in parables, and the context of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus clearly fits. The beginning of each of the two parables in Luke 16 are identical, which refutes your claims.
You OBVIOUSLY are aware of the truth, but are fighting it! Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a DIRECT RESPONSE TO THE PHARISEES...... THEN he returned to speaking to the disciples .... like the text shows, in SPITE of your efforts to circumvent the evidence.

The Lazarus account was not in direct response to the Pharisees. Luke 16:15-18 was the direct response to the Pharisees. We have nothing but your opinion that the Lazarus account is a parable. The internal evidence shows that it is not a parable. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, Jesus would be a liar.

 

[mkgal1]

The god of Universalism is a Unitarian Universal messiah, who will bless the sins of the world and will accuse and persecute my Christian brethren of being fundamentalists and dead enders for Jesus Christ.

The manifestation of the Anthropos/ peoples of Sin is all to evident. True Christianity is being marginalised and condemned, with a concerted effort to destroy it from within and without by the forces of darkness.

This is the time where many that side with the beast powers that be, will be eternally condemned and sent to outer darkness.

God's people know who they are. The false accusers of my brethren are those who are not of God.

First of all, be careful with your accusations (you're breaking CF rules). Not only that, but universal reconciliation (Apocatastasis) IS an accepted belief of the church.

Next.....can you link us up to an Eastern Orthodox site that agrees with you (because all that I've seen disagree with you)?

 

[Daniel9v9]

True, Scripture also says that He is good and holy as well.

If Adam was perfect, then he would not have misused his allegedly free will for evil. And here's the thing: If a perfect Adam could ruin a perfect setting with just a flick of his free will, then who's to say this won't happen again in heaven one day (assuming we have free will in heaven)?

Exactly! That's what "having life" involves. Repentance is a change of heart, and scripture indicates that God grants repentance, making it just as much a gift as faith, belief, and the salvation that accompanies them.

Scripture indicates that God is the one that begins the good work in a person. Paul was, apparently, still in the habit of, as Acts 9:1 puts it, "breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord" when he was literally knocked off his high horse by God and was changed.

So yes, to answer your question again, one can be in sin, rebellion, and unbelief one minute and have life (and thereby be changed) the very next. As I said before, if it can happen to Paul, who was the worst of sinners, it can happen to anyone.

I wouldn't rule it out, though I don't think all universalists believe that they will be.

Which part of 2 Peter 2 specifically are you referring to regarding this?

Dealing with evil and sin itself is one thing, throwing the baby out with the bathwater by tossing the whole individual into endless torment is another. I've said countless times already that wrongdoings come with their own punishments cleverly built right in (kudos to the Intelligent Designer, amirite?).

Even humans know to clean a container when it's dirty and replace the inferior contents with that which is good, rather than merely throwing the whole thing out. I'm really not interested in adopting a theology that renders God as less sensible than that in dealing with those created in His own image.

I'm glad you recognize that God is entirely good and holy, and again, an important part of this is that He is not the source of evil, for He neither tempts, imputes or bestows evil, but rather punishes evil, in accordance with His goodness, holiness and righteousness. Just as it's written in 1 John 2:16: "For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world."

Adam - Well, here again we have to look at what Scripture says. In the beginning it was, and I quote, "very good". What is meant here is that Adam was made righteous before God, and this is a perfect state. Adam (mankind) was made in the image of God and given free will. However, he was also given a warning that if he rebels against God, he would surely die; this is exactly what happened. As it's written in Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" Notice this: Death spread to all men because ALL sinned. However, our Lord Jesus Christ says: "Behold, I am making all things new.", and proclaim that sin, death and evil will be thrown out from God's presence. In other words, God's promise for all who believe in Christ Jesus is eternal life void of sin and rebellion. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

There are many important distinguishments to be made with regards to Adam and Christ, but the most noteworthy for this purpose has to do with God's promise. In short, we know that whoever believes in Christ Jesus as savior and Lord will not be hurt by the second death, and neither can they sin and rebel, for they are in Christ. Revelation 20:6

2 Peter 2 - I think all of this is very relevant for our discussion, and you really need the complete context - however, if you believe that all, including fallen angels will be saved, how do you get around this:
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;"?
Now, we should be mindful of what this judgment is. Look at Matthew 8:29: "And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"

Again, your argument using Paul is not addressing my question, but only proves my point, for Paul repented and believed, according to God's grace - just as anyone may find salvation in Christ, for it is a free gift from God. However, the question is what about people who through their own sin and rebellion reject God's grace and die in sin? Where in Scripture does it say that whoever, through sin, rebellion and unbelief rejects God's grace, namely Jesus Christ, will have life? Does Scripture say that man can repent and believe after dying? No. The only reference we have to this is Christ's proclamation to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey - which does not mean universal salvation, for it needs to be understood in context with everything else Scripture speaks regarding judgment, that sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God. e.g. Luke 16:19-31 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Galatians 5:19-21

Regarding sin - Do you suggest that people can pay for their own sins and then find salvation? This idea is entirely incompatible with the Gospel, for it holds that only Christ Jesus can pay for our sins, and this is a free gift from God, apprehended through faith. For the faithless, then - those who reject God's grace - by what means are their sins atoned?

 

[The Times]

First of all, be careful with your accusations (you're breaking CF rules). Not only that, but universal reconciliation (Apocatastasis) IS an accepted belief of the church.

Next.....can you link us up to an Eastern Orthodox site that agrees with you (because all that I've seen disagree with you)?

Please refrain from pointing fingers at Christ's sheep. This is the second person you are falsely accusing.

I still remember that you called me a fundamentalists and not a Christian. That would be breaking CF rules as I warned you previously.

I warn you again, please do not falsely accuse me or my brethren and secondly you are not orthodox, you are Anglican.

Universalism is not accepted by the orthodox church fathers and what I stated in my previous post is a general comment and is the truth.

 

[The Times]

Not only that, but universal reconciliation (Apocatastasis) IS an accepted belief of the church.

Here is the link.......for your Apostatesis...

 

[The Times]

There is no such thing as universal reconciliation. I can ask to make peace with another in Christ's name, if the other party comes to make peace with me in Christ's name also. But I can't give peace to another, because peace is not mine to give.

Therefore there is no worldly universal reconciliation.

 

[Kerensa]

The god of Universalism is a Unitarian Universal messiah, who will bless the sins of the world and will accuse and persecute my Christian brethren of being fundamentalists and dead enders for Jesus Christ.

So that's what you're really afraid of, brother? Being wrong??

(Not to mention of finding that heaven is full of all the sorts of people you're convinced don't deserve to be there. I seem to recall Jesus had some pretty strong words for the Pharisees about just that.)

Away from me evildoers Christ Jesus will tell them, for these have not the concerns of God at heart, but their own callous pride, that is eating at them from within.

Mmmm, callous pride that eats at one from within... that says rather a lot, doesn't it?

Anyway, I've had enough of following this discussion... it looks like most of us Christian Universalists here have twigged that we're not going to win this argument. But God is.

 

[The Times]

So that's what you're really afraid of, brother? Being wrong??

I am very sad that the blood covenant of Jesus Christ is being trampled on by those who are undermining the gospel of Jesus Christ and in addition I am sad for the unsuspecting Christians who are continually being brainwashed into a doctrine of worldly reconciliation, through Universalist Unitarian teachings, that is the antithesis to the Christian religion.

(Not to mention of finding that heaven is full of all the sorts of people you're convinced don't deserve to be there. I seem to recall Jesus had some pretty strong words for the Pharisees about just that.)

Heaven is filled of only one sort of people, that is one sort of people from every nation, who have made their garments white by the blood of the Lamb of God (Revelation 7:14).

Mmmm, callous pride that eats at one from within... that says rather a lot, doesn't it?

It says a lot, about those who think that they can say beyond a reasonable doubt that those who have not washed their robes by the blood of the Lamb of God are also heaven bound.

To a Unitarian Universalist....

Atheist go to Christ's Father's house
Those who worship other false gods go to Christ father's house
Down right Satanists who worship Lucifer go to Christ's Father's house

This is the callous pride that places man in a position to qualify all, without the cross of Christ and it is a callous act of pride, that has man so determined on making friends with the world, that the words of Jesus are completely dismissed and his cross denied before men.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. (James 4:4)

The reason to make worldly reconciliation outside the cross of Christ and his Holy name, is an act of callous pride. What I say is the truth in the matter, for it is man who through pomp and ceremony wants to extend their hands of peace to the world, to a world who knows not and accepts not Christ Jesus.

My final words on this is, that it is a prideful and callous heart that thinks peace is theirs to begin with, that they can so offer it to the world as if they are in possession of peace. There is only one who owns peace, the Prince of Peace Christ Jesus who is to be asked, so that he can extend his peace, that without him, there is no peace and never will be.

Anyway, I've had enough of following this discussion... it looks like most of us Christian Universalists here have twigged that we're not going to win this argument. But God is

No, as Universalists your not winning arguments here on promoting a doctrine that denies the justifying cross of Christ and that denies the sanctifying works of the Holy Ghost.

No one comes to the Father, except he goes through the Son and is approved by the Father. (John 3:5)

If you dismiss John 3:5, then you are promoting another gospel that is outside of the grace of God and his Christ.

To the Universalists your only answer that will convince you of your errors, is when you come face to face with Christ and cry out Lord Lord to him and then surprise surprise....

 

[The Times]

Understand this, there will be no Universal worldly peace for all of humanity, it had never happened historically and will never happen in the future.

The Bible informs us that Satan's spokesman the AntiChrist will try to Institute a worldly reconciliation, after a devastating global event, yet even that peace that he institutes will not be peace, because true Christians who oppose him will be persecuted and killed and towards the end, God the Father will give them all a big piece of rock to ponder upon.

17“I will bring such distress on all people that they will grope about like those who are blind, because they have sinned against the Lord. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the Lord’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth. (Zephaniah 1:17-18)

Everyone who will be running towards global peace and safety, are not carrying their crosses, big mistake!

 

[mkgal1]

I still remember that you called me a fundamentalists and not a Christian.

You may want to go back and re-read my posts.....that's not what I wrote.