To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[ClementofA]

Jesus did not teach universalism as I have shown in my [post #212] this thread.

That has already been sent to its Waterloo.

Jesus, the Word of God, taught it from Genesis to Revelation. See here:

Scriptural Evidence of Universalism

Where does the NT say that anyone cast into eternal punishment or fire is taken out at some point? If the fiery punishment is for correction how will those who experienced it feel about God who put them through it. How do many criminals feel about the the judges, witnesses, courts etc.who put them in prison? Many do not have warm fuzzies but place all the blame on the judges, witnesses. And many of them are repeaters.

and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13, YLT)

 

[aiki]

I've studied hell to some degree and I know it will be bad and that there will be torment for those there. With that said, I'm not going to say that it is fire for eternity. I know satan and his fallen angels will be in the Lake of Fire, that is clear but for me the eternity of non-believers is not as clear, except that it will be torment.

Revelation 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Apparently, the Lake of Fire will hold more than merely the devil and his angels and those who take the mark of the Beast. Anyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life (ie. who is not a born-again disciple of Christ) will be cast into the Lake of Fire, too.

So, saying that, my point is why are Christians so obsessed with what exactly it will be? It's almost like they get some kind of justice or feeling of superiority thinking about the non-believers who will be going there.

It concerns me, not for reasons related to feeling superior, but because there is a slow slide into apostasy happening within the evangelical church today that involves a rejection of the clear and basic doctrines of the faith - one of which is the doctrine of ECT in hell. My concern is to defend the truth, not feel superior.

Selah.

 

[Der Alte]

They are. They disagree with one another & they're not inspired, infallible or inerrant.

Your objection is irrelevant! I did not quote the Jewish Encyclopedia or the Talmud as "scripture" but exactly what they purport to be, the only credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews.
.....On forums like this there are a plethora of "apologists" arguing about what Hebrew words mean or what ancient Jews believed. And where you have 5 "apologists" you will find 6 different opinions. So I go to the source.
.....What did the Jews, at the time of Jesus, believe about eternal punishment and hell? We could go over to tentmakers, as some people do, and ask people with no stated qualifications what their opinion is? Or we could use some common sense and review historical documents of the Jews themselves thus the Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] and the Talmud.
.....So how did what Jesus taught about eternal punishment and hell compare with what the Jews of His day that about those topics. Tentmakers or JE and Talmud?

 

[aiki]

So I think in that way, we are all bias to our experiences and what we have been told and by whom we have been told. If we carry that in and then decide what God's Word has said, then aren't we bringing our own meaning and experience to the table before and as we are reading and understanding what we think God is telling us when we read those scriptures?

Yes. But this is why it is important to have proper hermeneutics guiding how one interprets Scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

That has already been sent to its Waterloo.
Jesus, the Word of God, taught it from Genesis to Revelation. See here:
Scriptural Evidence of Universalism

Once again quoting from and linking to a website which does not state any qualifications in anything. Abraham Lincoln once posted online "Don't believe everything you read on the internet." Be nice if you could share your own thoughts on this topic. If I want to know what tentmakers says about anything I can find them online.

and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13, YLT)

Proof text theology. Yank a verse out-of-context and think it disproves all other scripture. 15 and 16 chapters later Rev says.

Revelation 20:15
(15) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."​

 

[ClementofA]

Your objection is irrelevant! I did not quote the Jewish Encyclopedia or the Talmud as "scripture" but exactly what they purport to be, the only credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews.
..

Once again the Scriptures are dismissed. Why are you leaving them out of "the only credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews"?

Other ancient Jewish writings are listed here:

Early Jewish Writings: Old Testament, Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, and More
Ancient Hebrew writings - Wikipedia

Why include something (the Jewish Encyclopedia) published in the early 1900's as one of the only 2 "credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews"?

There are other Jewish encyclopedias written in English, such as:

Encyclopaedia Judaica - Wikipedia

"Publication of the prospectus in 1898 created a severe backlash, including accusations of poor scholarship and of subservience to Christians. Kaufmann Kohler and Gotthard Deutsch, writing in American Hebrew, highlighted Singer’s factual errors, and accused him of commercialism and irreligiosity. Now considering that the project could not succeed with Singer at the helm, Funk & Wagnalls appointed an editorial board to oversee creation of the encyclopedia."

"... Theologian and Presbyterian minister George Foot Moore was added to the board for balance. (Soon after work started, Moore withdrew and was replaced by Baptist minister Crawford Toy.)"

"...Conflict also arose over what types of bible interpretation should be included, with some editors fearing that Morris Jastrow's involvement in "higher criticism" would lead to unfavorable treatment of scripture.[9]"

Jewish Encyclopedia - Wikipedia

 

[Der Alte]

Once again the Scriptures are dismissed. Why are you leaving them out of "the only credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews"?

Showing that you did not read my [post#212] this thread where I quoted at least 25 verses of scripture.

Other ancient Jewish writings are listed here:

Early Jewish Writings: Old Testament, Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, and More
Ancient Hebrew writings - Wikipedia
Why include something (the Jewish Encyclopedia) published in the early 1900's as one of the only 2 "credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews"?
There are other Jewish encyclopedias written in English, such as:
Encyclopaedia Judaica - Wikipedia
"Publication of the prospectus in 1898 created a severe backlash, including accusations of poor scholarship and of subservience to Christians. Kaufmann Kohler and Gotthard Deutsch, writing in American Hebrew, highlighted Singer’s factual errors, and accused him of commercialism and irreligiosity. Now considering that the project could not succeed with Singer at the helm, Funk & Wagnalls appointed an editorial board to oversee creation of the encyclopedia."
"... Theologian and Presbyterian minister George Foot Moore was added to the board for balance. (Soon after work started, Moore withdrew and was replaced by Baptist minister Crawford Toy.)"
"...Conflict also arose over what types of bible interpretation should be included, with some editors fearing that Morris Jastrow's involvement in "higher criticism" would lead to unfavorable treatment of scripture.[9]"
Jewish Encyclopedia - Wikipedia

Wikipedia? Are you serious? Wiki is about as credible as the scribbles on a public facility wall. Every article has multiple [edit] links. Anybody can post, change, delete anything at any time without review. I know I have done it a few times to convince doubting Thomases. And OBTW "accusations" are not proof! The publication date of the Jewish Encyclopedia is irrelevant every article has a bibliography of the sources reviewed. That hole you are digging for yourself keeps getting deeper.

 

[Der Alte]

Once again the Scriptures are dismissed. Why are you leaving them out of "the only credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews"?

Showing that you did not read my [post#212] this thread where I quoted at least 25 verses of scripture.

Other ancient Jewish writings are listed here:

Early Jewish Writings: Old Testament, Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, and More
Ancient Hebrew writings - Wikipedia
Why include something (the Jewish Encyclopedia) published in the early 1900's as one of the only 2 "credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews"?
There are other Jewish encyclopedias written in English, such as:
Encyclopaedia Judaica - Wikipedia
"Publication of the prospectus in 1898 created a severe backlash, including accusations of poor scholarship and of subservience to Christians. Kaufmann Kohler and Gotthard Deutsch, writing in American Hebrew, highlighted Singer’s factual errors, and accused him of commercialism and irreligiosity. Now considering that the project could not succeed with Singer at the helm, Funk & Wagnalls appointed an editorial board to oversee creation of the encyclopedia."
"... Theologian and Presbyterian minister George Foot Moore was added to the board for balance. (Soon after work started, Moore withdrew and was replaced by Baptist minister Crawford Toy.)"
"...Conflict also arose over what types of bible interpretation should be included, with some editors fearing that Morris Jastrow's involvement in "higher criticism" would lead to unfavorable treatment of scripture.[9]"
Jewish Encyclopedia - Wikipedia

Wikipedia? Are you serious? Wiki is about as credible as the scribbles on a public facility wall. Every article has multiple [edit] links. Anybody can post, change, delete anything at any time without review. I know I have done it a few times to convince doubting Thomases. And OBTW "accusations" are not proof! The publication date of the Jewish Encyclopedia is irrelevant every article has a bibliography of the sources reviewed. That hole you are digging for yourself keeps getting deeper.

 

[William M K Yin]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

Because it has been foretold. The wisdom that knoweth all things, even from the foundation of the world. The wisdom that was there before the foundation of the world.
Jesus said, before the world, in the beginning I already was, meaning he was already created. even though he was born few thousand years later. You could call it the essence of Jesus, or his unique soul or spirit. Contrast this with future lives in Buddhism that the Saints that have been killed also mention.
The names written in the book of life of the lamb before the foundation of the world. These people in a similar fashion have already been known by God even before they were born. God knew exactly what they would decide and in what circumstances there were. This was also under the supposition that their will was also known by God and taken into account in this book.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

Because it has already been foretold, see below.

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

It is a prophecy so it is a foreseeing of the future and that persons fate. Ie the persons future has already been foretold by his actions that God already knew.
For the people that repented in Jonah's time, if there was a book of prophecy about that it would write that there will be people in Nineveh that will repent to my holiness.



Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[William M K Yin]

Have a look at my website, that will have or give directions and understanding to many of the confusions or unknowns surrounding the bible. You will be able to make conclusions for yourself because of the core and important teachings.
BeingwithGod.education
JusticeofGod.wordpress.com

 

[William M K Yin]

Because of my difficult life and life experience of a lot of unfairness and injustice, there was no other option but to stick to the faith and belief of and in Revelations. I believe this is what the saints did. Thus after having stuck with it long enough, things start to come together and understanding arises. Also with the help of other readings from the Saints. Modern books don't really teach me anything. Maybe this is one of the meanings what Jesus mean't when he said whoever keeps the words of this book (Revelations) happy will he be, but whoever removes the words of this book, his part shall be in the lake of fire and burning sulphur.

 

[ClementofA]

Showing that you did not read my [post#212] this thread where I quoted at least 25 verses of scripture.

That's irrelevant to what you said:

"I did not quote the Jewish Encyclopedia or the Talmud as "scripture" but exactly what they purport to be, the only credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews."

Firstly, again, those are not the "only" two credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews". There is also all books of the OT & NT, etc.

Secondly, where's the evidence that the Jewish Encyclopedia qualifies as one of "only" two credible sources? Where's the evidence that it's even a credible source? More significantly, where's the evidence the specific portions you quote from it, & the author thereof, is credible and accurate? And that no other credible sources disagree with any of it?

Thirdly, where's the evidence that all other Jewish writings, ancient & modern, are not credible sources?

Wikipedia? Are you serious? Wiki is about as credible as the scribbles on a public facility wall. Every article has multiple [edit] links. Anybody can post, change, delete anything at any time without review. I know I have done it a few times to convince doubting Thomases. And OBTW "accusations" are not proof! The publication date of the Jewish Encyclopedia is irrelevant every article has a bibliography of the sources reviewed. That hole you are digging for yourself keeps getting deeper.

I know how the site functions. It refers to sources you & many others consider credible.

Bottom line. You didn't refute what it said.

 

[ClementofA]

Proof text theology. Yank a verse out-of-context and think it disproves all other scripture. 15 and 16 chapters later Rev says.

Revelation 20:15
(15) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."​

Those two you just quoted are "out of context". They don't make Rev.5:13 untrue. Post the context of Rev.5:13 & it will still be true.

and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13, YLT)

 

[beebert]

The western traditional teachings of hell, predestination etc. Are so unacceptable that if they were true, I would rather be in hell than in heaven.

 

[beebert]

The thought of death and a life after death can lead to fatalism and apathy, so that we only live life here half-heartedly, or just endure it and ‘get through’. The thought of a life after death can cheat us of the happiness and the pain of this life, so that we squander its treasures, selling them off cheap to heaven. In that respect it is better to live every day as if death didn’t exist, better to love life here and now as unreservedly as if death really were ‘the finish’. The notion that this life is no more than a preparation for a life beyond, is the theory of a refusal to live, and a religious fraud. It is inconsistent with the living God, who is ‘a lover of life’. In that sense it is religious atheism. The christian who believes in the power of hell and believes that God's heart turns to iron after judgement day, I consider to be the greatest

 

[beebert]

The thought of death and a life after death can lead to fatalism and apathy, so that we only live life here half-heartedly, or just endure it and ‘get through’. The thought of a life after death can cheat us of the happiness and the pain of this life, so that we squander its treasures, selling them off cheap to heaven. In that respect it is better to live every day as if death didn’t exist, better to love life here and now as unreservedly as if death really were ‘the finish’. The notion that this life is no more than a preparation for a life beyond, is the theory of a refusal to live, and a religious fraud. It is inconsistent with the living God, who is ‘a lover of life’. In that sense it is religious atheism. The Christian who believes that hell exists from God's view, who believes that God's heart turns to iron on judgement day(which is the same as to say that God 's heart was of iron before creating the world even, for what God foreknows, he also wills), that he actively tortures People in hell, are the greatest deniers of God, the greatest blasphemers and slanders of the truth. In my opinion, they are nothing but the world's true anti-theists.

 

[ClementofA]

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment,
He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.

Actually He did correct them in a number of ways:

1) He told the self righteous Pharisees, who thought they would escape hell, that they were headed there.

2) His teachings rejected the Sadducees belief about there being no hell.

Therefore, to use your own words, since "Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been" wrong.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

That's irrelevant to what you said:
"I did not quote the Jewish Encyclopedia or the Talmud as "scripture" but exactly what they purport to be, the only credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews."
Firstly, again, those are not the "only" two credible historical record of the faith and practice of the ancient Jews". There is also all books of the OT & NT, etc.

Of course there is the OT and NT which, OBTW, many people interpret differently to suit their particular biases. But note I said "credible historical record" which is different than "scriptural record." The two sources are historical evidence how Jews interpreted the scriptures relating to "hell." While the JE and Talmud are not the only historical record they are credible, verifiable and have not been disproved or refuted.

Secondly, where's the evidence that the Jewish Encyclopedia qualifies as one of "only" two credible sources? Where's the evidence that it's even a credible source? More significantly, where's the evidence the specific portions you quote from it, & the author thereof, is credible and accurate? And that no other credible sources disagree with any of it?

If you think you can find credible, verifiable historical evidence which refutes the JE and Talmud please feel free to do so instead of repeatedly quoting the unsupported universalist ramblings from tentmakers, which is not evidence for anything but the bias of the person who maintains the site..
.....How do I know the JE and Talmud are accurate and credible because they have been accepted by the Jews since they were written. If they were not accurate records of Jewish history Jewish scholars would certainly have refuted them in the years since their publication.
.....I know let's believe everything , over at tentmakers, without qualification, which provides no, zero, none evidence of any kind but it does support the universalist heresy.

Thirdly, where's the evidence that all other Jewish writings, ancient & modern, are not credible sources?

What "other Jewish writings, ancient & modern" are you talking about. I haven't seen any. Modern sources are worthless unless they cite historical evidence.
.....I quote sources which are readily available to everyone, and provide links so those who choose to do so can verify what I say. I could quote from Encyclopedia Judaica but I don't happen to have $450 to buy a used set over at Ebay or a $1000+ for a new set s it is not readily available to most people..

I know how the site functions. It refers to sources you & many others consider credible.
Bottom line. You didn't refute what it said.

If you know how wiki works then you should find the sources they refer to and quote from the primary sources not what is posted at wiki, which might have been altered. What is there to refute? All I saw were some accusations about some of the JE scholars, no evidence that anything I quoted was wrong. And nothing I have quoted has been or can be refuted.

 

[Der Alte]

Those two you just quoted are "out of context". They don't make Rev.5:13 untrue. Post the context of Rev.5:13 & it will still be true.

and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13, YLT)

​

Nonsense they were NOT out-of-context as I said the vss. I quoted were 15-16 chapters after your out-of-context proof text, Rev 5, which is talking about events prior to Rev 20 and 21. So after the events in chap 5

"if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire." YLT Revelation 20:15 ​

Then, again after your proof text, we read in Rev 20:4 death is destroyed

YLT Revelation 21:4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.' ​

Although death is destroyed in vs. 4 there are still groups of people being cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

YLT Revelation 21:8 and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' ​

 

[ToBeLoved]

Revelation 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Apparently, the Lake of Fire will hold more than merely the devil and his angels and those who take the mark of the Beast. Anyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life (ie. who is not a born-again disciple of Christ) will be cast into the Lake of Fire, too.



It concerns me, not for reasons related to feeling superior, but because there is a slow slide into apostasy happening within the evangelical church today that involves a rejection of the clear and basic doctrines of the faith - one of which is the doctrine of ECT in hell. My concern is to defend the truth, not feel superior.

Selah.

What I disagree with is people supposedly basing there understanding of hell on prophetic books that are not cut and dry on the subject.

When people all have their own interpretations of the prophetic, it becomes a mish mash of non-understandinig.

I think people place to much on prophetic books and there is not a clear understanding from these books because they ARE prophetic.

So Revelation and Daniel I don't think should be given as much interpretation as other books.

People are obsessed with the prophetic and have been for a long time twisting their theology around unknowns, IMHO.