Universalism...why not?

[JacksBratt]

First off....HUMANS aren't described as "filthy rags" anywhere in the Bible (it's "righteous" acts that are).

You are right. Our righteous acts are described, in the Biblical Scripture, as filthy rags. Thanks... So our sinful acts must be even more unattractive. Nice of you to clear that up.

I take that (and the entire plot of the Bible, actually) to mean that God's desire is our genuine relationship with Him (not empty acts ).

I would agree with that 100%.

So, who desires a "genuine relationship with Him"?
A/ the guy waiting to see what happens and gets salvation only after death and realizing the truth first hand. OR

B/ The guy, in this world, accepting Christ and humbling themselves before Christ striving to walk as Christ taught, ................... even before firsthand knowledge of the truth....but by faith alone?

I'm of the belief that God's justice is restorative. A system of "punishment" results in the person being punished getting more isolated.....more dishonest.....more resentful, etc. I can't see that lining up with God's character.

This has nothing to do with God's character. Why do people always place this on Him?

No, this is ALL about OUR character, OUR attitude, OUR heart and OUR desire to be like Him.

The only people that become more dishonest and more resentful, due to punishment........in my experience, are those who fail to accept ownership for their actions, fail to accept that what they did was wrong, Fail to accept that it was their choice..and Failure to change their heart.....

No, these people feel that the system is not fair, they don't deserve this and they should have been dealt with differently...
Not those who say "wow, I was out of line, this is MY fault, My actions" then, humble their heart and take their just punishment.

I could be reading this wrong.....but the way you phrased this, it almost seems as if you believe Jesus had one will (to "save" us) and God, the Father, had another (for us to get the death penalty). Is that what you believe? If so.....I disagree.

This is not what I proposed.
Both God and Jesus desire fellowship with us. They desire us ALL to be with them for eternity.
God is the judge and MUST determine "guilty" or "innocent"
God must adhere to the law He created that determines guilt or innocence.
Christ paid the price for everyone's guilt, each and every one.
Only those that freely accept this gift of payment and salvation, from Christ, can be pardoned by it.
The rest, God has no choice, as judge, must find guilty and must subject them to the just punishment.
The punishment is death.
God does not relish this sentence. Nor does He take any pleasure.... Satan is the one that will be ringing his hands and giggling with psychotic glee, that another of God's precious souls has fell to his trap.

Jesus came to reveal the Father. When Jesus said (on the cross) "forgive them, for they know not what they do"......that's in agreement with the Father (not Jesus pleading for forgiveness on our behalf--as if the Father willed for something different). There is ONE God ("I and my Father are one"--John 10:30) .....Jesus said "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).

BTW--substitutionary atonement *theory* is just one of many theories the church holds to (I am not a believer of it).

Yes, Jesus said "for they know not what they do"

However, we are fully aware of what we are doing...... if we deny Christ.

substitutionary atonement..................that IS the entire gospel message.

 

[Kerensa]

substitutionary atonement..................that IS the entire gospel message.

Actually it's not. That's just one theory of atonement and not one that all Christians subscribe to. But that's a whole 'nother subject...

 

[GillDouglas]

Not even remotely true. So because it's not popular means it can't be true....really?

Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches, and therefore it is NOT a popular notion.

This is one way to twist around the logical meaning of a sentence. As I clearly state, it is not a popular notion because it is not true. Universalism is easily defeated with Scripture.

This is true. Those who for whatever reason reject Jesus will have the opportunity in the next life to accept. And in the end, God's love will prove irresistible to even the most hardened sinner.

You've adopted the Reformed doctrine of Irresistible (efficacious) Grace, and applied it to physically dead people. Tell me, where in the Bible does it say that God will work on a man's heart after death and in doing so the physically dead man suddenly has the ability to demonstrate faith? No where.

The only dead men that God gives a renewed heart, in order to bring about faith, is a physically alive but spiritually dead person. If that person is not made spiritually alive prior to their physical death they will remain spiritually dead for an eternity.

 

[GillDouglas]

Actually it's not. That's just one theory of atonement and not one that all Christians subscribe to. But that's a whole 'nother subject...

It's not just a theory, it is the truth concerning the atonement. Unless you believe the sinner is made holy, pure and is sinless in this life. Unless you do not believe that a sinner, without the righteousness of Christ to shield them from the Holiness of God, will not perish in His presence.

We are not natural sons and daughters of God in the way that Christ is. When God adopts us, the righteousness of Christ in imputed upon us so that when we die He may present us without spot or blemish. This is because we could not be presented on the basis of our own righteousness, lest we perish. Because even the most righteous of men's works are but 'filthy rags', because the flesh corrupts everything.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Neither would an unrepentant you. Or Saul, who became Paul the apostle, who called himself the worst of sinners.

How many billions of years of punishment does Hitler deserve? Should it involve being burned alive, weeping and gnashing of teeth and torments forever and ever?

If forever is forever, why add "and ever" to it?

The Unofficial ULC Webring

Hitler? In my estimation, Hitler will get few years of punishment in view of the nature of eternity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Neither would an unrepentant you.

Right. Exactly.

Or Saul, who became Paul the apostle, who called himself the worst of sinners.

Paul called himself the worst of sinners...whether he actually was the worst of sinners in God's eye's is another topic.

How many billions of years of punishment does Hitler deserve? Should it involve being burned alive, weeping and gnashing of teeth and torments forever and ever?

Personally, I'm not concerned with how an alternative ethical framework 'informs' us about what the proper nature and duration of punishment should be of Hitler. What I'm concerned with is the actual meaning of the biblical texts in relation to the nature of God's judgements upon humanity. (And if you didn't notice, I'm of the Annihilationist camp, not the Eternal Burners. However, I do believe that the punishment is everlasting. I don't think there will be a second-chance resurrection for Hitler a billion years down the road.)

If forever is forever, why add "and ever" to it?

That question would be relevant for those who believe in eternal hell-fire.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Saint Isaac the Syrian was an unabashed Christian Universalist.

And Saint Paul of Tarsus wasn't. And as far as I know, neither was Peter the Galilean.

[At this point, I'm going to desist in direct criticism of alternative points, because it doesn't seem to get anyone to think further......]

Ok. Jeff. You're a smart guy. Tell me how you came to the conclusion that Universalism is how God will ultimately met out mercy to everyone in the end. What books did you read? And what thought processes did you go through while enroute to affirming Universal Salvation?

 

[Albion]

So allowing eternal torment is just?

Clearly--I'd say--the answer to your question depends upon the severity of the offense.

 

[Dartman]

The punishment is eternal, the punishing is not.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Rev 20:14-21:5 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith Jehovah of hosts.

2 Peter 3:12-14 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[Kerensa]

The punishment is eternal, the punishing is not.

?????

 

[Mike Fleming]

That's one scenario among a few within universalism in general, yes. Though I don't think people should be kept in the dark about the fact that they're saved, and by Whom. I'll get into that further down the post.

Back to your question: It would almost have to be that way, I would think, given that Christ was crucified from before the foundation of the world, meaning that the deed was done before anyone was around to acknowledge it, let alone make it an official confession of faith or dogma-to-die-for.

And if it is indeed a fact, then it would have to be so regardless of whether or not we believe it. That's how facts work.

1 Corinthians 15:22 says that just as all died in Adam, so also shall all be made alive again in Christ. A parallel is being drawn there; Romans 5 goes into that same parallel more in-depth.

So, how did all die in Adam? Did they have to make a confession of faith in Adam before they qualified as one of the Fallen? Did they have to answer an altar-call or say The Faller's Prayer before they could have any assurance of being one of the Fallen Ones?

No. Adam did his thing and it was automatically imputed onto all mankind. And Adam was just a human, not God Himself. Pretty influential guy for a mere mortal, right?

So just as Adam had an impact on all of mankind, so also will Christ a have an impact on the same all of mankind. If Adam can spread it around so easily, God can too.

Does this mean that people don't have to believe in Jesus in order to be saved? Technically, it's feasible, though, again, it depends on which school of universalism one subscribes to. I lean more towards yes, they're saved even as we speak.

However:

It would help them tremendously if they were filled in on what the deal is. Just like someone who doesn't know they're a millionaire would benefit from being informed of it, especially if they are, in the meantime, living as though they don't have two pennies to rub together. Sure, they don't have to be told they possess millions, but it would definitely help them. So, yes, sharing the Good Great News about God being the Savior of all mankind is still a commendable endeavor. But, unlike some Christian teachings kicking around out there, failing to get the word out doesn't mean someone is going to fry forever (what a head-game that one is... ).

That's what I think is meant by verses like 1 Timothy 4:10 regarding God being the Savior of all men, "especially" of believers. Everyone's saved, but those who realize it here and now are especially saved because they carry an awareness of it here and now, and the joy and peace of mind that comes with it. Why live under the impression of being poor if one is, in reality, a millionaire? Why live under the impression that you're doomed if you're not? Why live under the impression that, while you might be saved, your loved one(s) are likely doomed, when they're not? I won't lie—those beliefs can really mess with peoples' heads.

It is very similar. I've observed this in the countless discussions and debates I've been in on this subject (most right here in CF). The reaction against the salvation of all is akin to the "righteous" brother's heartburn over the prodigal's open-armed welcome home from the father. But I think that attitude is only temporary. It's one of the things that restoration will remedy, both on the individual level, and at the collective level.

What I take form the parable of the prodigal son is that the older brother had come to a point of reili

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Here are a couple of verses which explain where I am coming from:

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 15:29 The jailer called for lights and ran to the dungeon and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.”

I do not mean to be sarcastic in this response, but this the way I am trying to understand your reasoning. The apostles were not preaching to these Roman and Jewish converts that they were already saved. They were not saying, "Congratulations! You are saved. Don't worry about it. You're covered." They clearly laid out the path they needed, which was a responsibility on THEIR end to repent and believe on Jesus Christ. They were not preaching a gospel stating that all are saved and in no verse that I know did they ever state that anyone of any other religion would be saved. They were forcefully preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ so that they would repent and turn to Jesus. This was the message which brought so much persecution to Christians and still do to this day in closed and restricted nations. People do not like the idea that we still must be washed from sins by our confession and repentance.
1 Corinthians 7:8 I am not sorry that I sent that severe letter to you, though I was sorry at first, for I know it was painful to you for a little while. 9 Now I am glad I sent it, not because it hurt you, but because the pain caused you to repent and change your ways. It was the kind of sorrow God wants his people to have, so you were not harmed by us in any way. 10 For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There’s no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death.

 

[Dartman]

The punishment is eternal, the punishing is not.

?????

Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matt 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The shame and contempt for the wicked lasts forever, their destiny is to be condemned, then destroyed .. forever.
The PROCESS of destruction is finite, the RESULT of the destruction is infinite.

2 Peter 2:12-13 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

 

[Kerensa]

Oh, right, so that's annihilationism rather than eternal conscious torment-ism.

 

[GillDouglas]

Christ preached on Hell more than He preached on Heaven, with good reason. In doing so He is trying to make us realize our desperate need for the righteous life and sacrificial death of Christ! Why don't people follow His example? Why do preachers glance over or avoid preaching on it? People think Hell is unkind, unloving, and offensive. This is because of man's sinful false perceptions of self-righteousness. If we do not preach from what we are saved from, then teaching about what we're saved to has little meaning. Spurgeon said "When men talk of a little hell, it's because they think they have only a little sin and believer in a little Savior."

 

[Albion]

It's a bit off the point, but do you think that most people who say they don't accept a hell are primarily concerned to believe that they themselves will avoid hell, not that Jack the Ripper or Adolf Hitler will? It seems similar to opponents of the death penalty who are up in arms and protesting if a member of some minority is sentenced...but are quietly supportive when someone like the young man who shot up the Charleston, SC Bible Study group faces the death penalty.

 

[Light of the East]

Maybe I haven't been paying attention. But it seems to me that the belief that all people will be saved after death, regardless of how the lived in life, simply by the love of God is being led by the assumption of God's desires that are based in human emotion. Perhaps it is the thought of men and women living a life of eternal torment that causes one to reject the teaching of Scripture on Hell. To me its an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God—and an absolute neglect of the righteousness and justice of God—that leads one to believe God will have mercy on every living soul.

When I was in seminary, we studied a lot of the history of the development of the Christian faith. The Roman society of the first three centuries was absolutely consumed with THE LAW. Law, the study of the law, the application of the law, was everything to the average Roman citizen.

This overblown interest in THE LAW apparently highly influenced those who interpreted and preached from the revelation of God as found in the writings of St. Paul. Law can have many meanings and ideas, but the Roman way of looking at it is strictly that of breaking a set of rules and punishing someone for those infractions. This way of looking at life apparently also filtered into the Church, and you can see this in the difference between the way that the Greek Church emphasized the restoration of the nature of man vs how the Roman Church simply emphasized punishment in all its forms.

I think it would be a very instructive study for you to do some historical work in studied the difference between Eastern and Western thought on this matter.

 

[Light of the East]

False. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches, and therefore it is NOT a popular notion. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved by the love of God is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

Then please explain to me why it was preached for the first five centuries until Augustine torpedoed it with his musings, and also why there was never a council called to address the issue? Please answer this question.

Whenever a heresy arose in the Early Church, a council was called. This started as early as the Jerusalem Council and the circumcision debate in Acts 15. Yet there is no council at all called for 500 years to discuss Universalism. Preposterous!

 

[Albion]

When I was in seminary, we studied a lot of the history of the development of the Christian faith. The Roman society of the first three centuries was absolutely consumed with THE LAW. Law, the study of the law, the application of the law, was everything to the average Roman citizen.

This overblown interest in THE LAW apparently highly influenced those who interpreted and preached from the revelation of God as found in the writings of St. Paul. Law can have many meanings and ideas, but the Roman way of looking at it is strictly that of breaking a set of rules and punishing someone for those infractions. This way of looking at life apparently also filtered into the Church, and you can see this in the difference between the way that the Greek Church emphasized the restoration of the nature of man vs how the Roman Church simply emphasized punishment in all its forms.

There's a lot of truth in that overview, but most historians will tell you that to live under a set of laws was one of Rome's greatest contributions to civilization. We ought to be more cognizant of that fact and less inclined to assume that, in the absence of law, we'd all be living in some peaceful and prosperous Utopia of mutual cooperation.

 

[Albion]

Whenever a heresy arose in the Early Church, a council was called. This started as early as the Jerusalem Council and the circumcision debate in Acts 15. Yet there is no council at all called for 500 years to discuss Universalism. Preposterous!

Quite obviously, this is not correct to say. The heresies that existed in the early church were many...and yet, how many councils were called to deal with any of them? Nicaea was called because Arianism was so popular and widespread, but that was a rare exception.

 

[Light of the East]

They did not use Universalism within your current context of the usage of the term. Your 100% misquoting the Church fathers to give life to a heresy that all will be saved.

When Athiests die, are they saved?
When snake worshippers die, are they saved?
When Satanists die, are they saved?

Not until they first go through the scourging of God for their sins. They will be plunged into the fire of His love and it will burn and torment them for all the sins they have committed in their lives. Their willfullness, their rebellion, their love of sin, will meet the love of God, and it will be like AC current hitting a DC drive motor!

Have you ever seen what happens when AC juice hits a DC motor. It is horrible for the motor because the motor cannot take it. Likewise, a soul in a state of sinfulness and selfishness, meeting the love of God, will be tormented.

After the scourging has done its work and the justice of God has been proportionally meted out to the rebellious soul, Patristic Universalism sees that this is the point in the souls' existence where, having seen its wickedness and been punished (scourged) for it, the soul has the opportunity to turn to God in repentance.

This is where you differ from the Patristic Universalists. You don't believe there is a second chance for repentance, and quite frankly, this is where I have the most problem also. If you have read any of my posts, you should know that I am not totally onboard with this as of now. And the reason is that there are some men (and women) of whom it is hard to imagine that they would ever repent, even after a prolonged period of the most severe scourging. I have a hard time imagining an Idi Amin, a Josef Stalin, a Pol Pot, a Margaret Sanger, and many other deeply hardened souls coming to Christ, even after they have been beaten severely for their sins and even with Christ now visible to them and pleading with them to come to Him

That is the point where I have a real problem. I wonder if they will simply become harder and harder in their sin, and one thing that points to this from Scripture is that the devil Himself sees the Lord in all His loving beauty and rejects Christ and His love for his own ego. How can he do that, seeing Christ in all His beauty? I do not understand.

If you answered yes to any of the above, your not even close to what the Church fathers taught, not even close. In fact if this lifetime is not the means test for a person's salvation, then Christ died for nothing. God came as Jesus of Nazareth and he died on the cross, then he said come and follow me.

But is this really a fair test? We have a nature which is broken and inclined to sin, a devil who is allowed to trick, test, tempt, and deceive us, and eyes that no longer see God clearly as Adam did? How is this anything but a race that is rigged against us from the very beginning? It is like strapping 20 pound weights to the ankles of an Olympic runner and then expecting him to win the gold medal. Ain't gonna happen unless someone picks him up and carries him in a car across the line.

Let me ask you this - could it be that rather than being a test between salvation and utter torment forever, could it be a test to assign different levels of glory and responsibility in the Kingdom in the coming age? A Josef Stalin might be redeemed (again, assuming that he is capable of repenting) to be a very dim soul of dim glory and no authority in the Kingdom, whereas an Antony of the Desert will shine like the brightest noon sun, and have great authority.

I'm not saying this is true, it is something that I wonder could be perhaps another explanation of this journey we are on in this world.

Jesus said not every one who says lord lord will inherit eternal life, except those who do the fathers will. Doing the fathers will is solely in this lifetime, and this lifetime is temporal testing platform that God uses to either accept or to reject people. Once we pass away, there is no more carrying our crosses and following Jesus, let alone doing the Father's will. The work of faith is in this lifetime, after comes judgement before the judgement seat of Christ, that at this time it is Justice and not Grace that you are facing.