Universalism...why not?

[2PhiloVoid]

If repentance is difficult in life, how much more difficult would it be to have to finally turn around and change your heart after death? Obviously we can't answer that question, but Universalism doesn't eliminate the need for repentance. I think it underscores it.

There is no opportunity to repent after death............any thought otherwise is myth.

 

[Light of the East]

Yeah, that's what I was saying. It seems to be a case of, if you can't argue with someone's point, misstate it as something it isn't.

Myself, I'm just heartened to see there are so many brothers and sisters here, and from various branches of Christianity, who not only understand that our God WILL NOT let anyone be lost forever, but are courageous enough to stand up and say it, and to show plenty of Scriptural support for that understanding as well.

Well, I wouldn't say that I'm 100% on board with it quite yet, but in understanding God's immense love for us, and the fact that it was taught for the first 500 years of Christianity, it is compelling.

Two things are still troubling me:

1. It seems that Patristic Universalism leaves the final decision in the hands of the soul after it has been scourged for its sin. I find myself wondering, looking as some of the people we have seen in the last many centuries, if it is possible that some are so deeply committed to their sin, and so hateful towards God, that repentance really is impossible for them, even after they have seen Christ and come to view their sins in the light of truth.

2. And if it is true, then it creates massive ecclesiastical problems. The Church is the "pillar and ground of truth," but is there is no one source of truth, as the Church as claimed to be for the last 2000 years, then where is truth to the found. Everything becomes a toss up and everyone has an equal claim that their interpretation of the Scriptures is true. If God has allowed this, then just how important is truth anyway?

 

[jeffinjapan]

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

Christian Universalism has a solid basis in scripture, and in the early Church, was a dominate belief. Many of the great Christian saints were outright universalist or leaned in that direction.

 

[Light of the East]

I just realized I never answered your Wordpress post, after I finished reading it. Though lacking in scriptural support, he does present an abundance of logical points which should cause any thinking ECT to reflect a bit more with their own brain instead of just yielding to brains who lived a long time ago and tweaked the truth of the 'good news gospel' into just 'a hell of a bad story' about an ugly God, IMO.

Well, I wasn't writing it so much as a scriptural defense as a philosophical one.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Christian Universalism has a solid basis in scripture, and in the early Church, was a dominate belief. Many of the great Christian saints were outright universalist or leaned in that direction.

'many'? How many is 'many,' Jeff?

 

[jeffinjapan]

You could also say, "If God is able to save any and all people, why would He wait until after people die and have lived such miserable and awful lives in this world?" If He was going to have universal salvation, He could easily do it in this life.

You're making assumptions about God that may...or may not be true. You just stating what you would do if YOU were God.

 

[Light of the East]

The Orthodox Church fathers taught that pain and suffering was the inspiration of faith, through much trials and tribulations, until we are perfected in faith, through God's perfect love.

That is exactly what Patristic Universalism is. And would you kindly stop referring to us as "Unitarian Universalists." We are not and they are heretics of the worst kind - anti-trinitarian God deniers.

 

[jeffinjapan]

'many'? How many is 'many,' Jeff?

A lot. Do your own research!

 

[GillDouglas]

You're making assumptions about God that may...or may not be true. You just stating what you would do if YOU were God.

Isn't that exactly what Universalists do? Make assumptions about God's intentions, based on human emotional influence, rather than Scripture?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

A lot. Do your own research!

I have...and it wasn't that many.

 

[Light of the East]

Isn't that exactly what Universalists do? Make assumptions about God's intentions, based on human emotional influence, rather than Scripture?

No, it is not, and your statement shows that you haven't been paying attention at all!

 

[jeffinjapan]

Because God is just as well as merciful.

So allowing eternal torment is just? In the end, God's mercy will will be the victor.

 

[Silmarien]

There is no opportunity to repent after death............any thought otherwise is myth.

How would you know that one way or the other? I am agnostic on the whole matter; it's people who commit to an answer one way or the other who confuse me.

 

[The Times]

My first post about that was to show that there are "fundamentalists" and "mystics" in just about every denomination (and religion). There is no "fundamentalist" denomination. If you hold to the belief system---why would it be an insult? I'm not insulted if someone were to say, "your language sounds a lot like a Christian mystic".

Universalism has never historically been preached to Orthodox faithful from my youth. I only have heard it being pushed by none Orthodox advocates, knowing nothing about orthodoxy, parroting the Church fathers, without understanding the context of culture and context of situation that their message was intended for.

It is the very Church fathers who anethamised apostates and would not go back on their precepts. In fact the Universalist theology used was solely tied to a credal based, statement of belief and 7 sacrement religious system, that provided surety for the faithful who may at one or a few times in their lifetime stray from the faith, to then be reeled back by God, not wanting to loose any. The context doesn't extend to the none believers and downright satanists who hate and curse God.

The Orthodox teachings taught that you reep in the afterlife what you sow in this temporal life. It is possible that God can extend his mercy seat to the lost faithful through the realm of the living, whilst that person is still living. The rejection of those who don't come back to Christ become likened to the foolish virgins who would be sent away at midnight, when their time in this realm ends.

Again the story of Job is preached many times by Orthodox priests who provide this story as an example of why the rich man in Gahenna could not be helped by Abraham and neither could he help his brothers, as he was pointed to the prohphets and scripture as their guidance to not ending up in that dreadful place. This lesson is taught to highlight the importance of not starying from the faith unto death, because after death judgment comes and then the decision is made for that individual, as to the decision whether they are reunited with God or are sent away as outcasts into the darkness abyse of Gehenna.

 

[jeffinjapan]

I have...and it wasn't that many.

Nonsense! The case for the ultimate reconciliation of ALL souls dwarfs the notion that God is going to let the vast majority of his creation burn in hell forever.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So allowing eternal torment is just? In the end, God's mercy will will be the victor.

Who said I believe in an Eternal Hell?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Nonsense! The case for the ultimate reconciliation of ALL souls dwarfs the notion that God is going to let the vast majority of his creation burn in hell forever.

You're basing your conclusion on a preference for an answer that you find palatable, not one that is truthful.

 

[Hillsage]

You mean, that you have no fear of God now as compared to your earlier years and you have reached a point in your faith that you are comfortable with. Is that right?

That would be....wrong...again. I fear God, I just don't fear your version of hell. IOW my fear is well-placed, and yours is not.

 

[GillDouglas]

No, it is not, and your statement shows that you haven't been paying attention at all!

Maybe I haven't been paying attention. But it seems to me that the belief that all people will be saved after death, regardless of how the lived in life, simply by the love of God is being led by the assumption of God's desires that are based in human emotion. Perhaps it is the thought of men and women living a life of eternal torment that causes one to reject the teaching of Scripture on Hell. To me its an over-emphasis on the love and compassion of God—and an absolute neglect of the righteousness and justice of God—that leads one to believe God will have mercy on every living soul.

 

[Hillsage]

I guess we can sit back and do the "wait and see" game as to whether or not Universalism is indeed God's choice for a salvation economy. ... I can hardly wait to shake the hands of Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin and Mao. m'boy!

Oh I rather look forward to it. But then my heart is probably in tune with the heart of the one who died for them on the cross too. So I expect I will have to be in line behind him.