To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[surrender1]

"Sheep" = ALL people that did right and went to heaven

"Goats" = ALL people that did not do as Christ demands and love their neighbor, and were cast into outer darkness/Hell.

If you believe this passage is about "going to heaven" when we die, then you are advocating for a works-based salvation. Earning our way to heaven.

 

[ClementofA]

That is merely the resurrection of the dead BEFORE going to hell.

Are you confusing hell(Hades) with the lake of fire? They are not the same.

 

[Rajni]

"Sheep" = ALL people that did right and went to heaven

"Goats" = ALL people that did not do as Christ demands and love their neighbor, and were cast into outer darkness/Hell.

Isaiah 11:6 seems to indicate that, ultimately, the sheep and the goats end up in the same place (with at least one wolf thrown in there for good measure). The sheep will do well to hope that place is a pleasant one!


-

 

[1stcenturylady]

Are you confusing hell(Hades) with the lake of fire? They are not the same.

The lake of fire is after the last resurrection, and after the millennium. I consider that hell.

Outer darkness could be hades, which would be after death, but before the last resurrection of the dead.

 

[aiki]

No it does not. If you look the word up in the original language it means until the end of this age. Or even the end of the Ages. Even science does not believe in anything being eternal and without end. That was a theory that came and went. There is a beginning and an end and God knows the end from the beginning. That is why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

Yes, it does. I began studying the matter of ECT long ago, so I am well aware of what "aionios" means. You seem a bit fuzzy on it, so let me offer the following:

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the N.T., save the places noted above (Eph. 3:11; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ro. 16:25, 26; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2) may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18 (18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.) where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philemon 15 (15 For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever), where only in the N.T. it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16; and of His glory, 1 Pe. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, He. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, He. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, He. 5:9..." (pg. 43, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words).

It matters not one whit to the question of ECT whether or not scientists believe in anything eternal. As you can see in the quotation above, the Bible indicates a number of things are eternal. Is an eternal God "a theory that came and went"? I don't think so...

Jesus being the Alpha and Omega does not imply an end to everything but rather the eternal nature of Christ and his sovereign supremacy over all things.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If you believe this passage is about "going to heaven" when we die, then you are advocating for a works-based salvation. Earning our way to heaven.

Yeah, I know, try to obey God an you have done wrong, lol. Heard it way to many times. Matter of fact, I covered that on another thread just a few minutes ago.

Post #30 right here...

Two Kinds of Christianity?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Isaiah 11:6 seems to indicate that, ultimately, the sheep and the goats end up in the same place (with at least one wolf thrown in there for good measure). The sheep will do well to hope that place is a pleasant one!


-

Wow, the scripture mentions sheep and goats and it aromatically has to so do with the one we speak of? Miles apart, nothing to do with each other, and I'd love to speak with the person that first had that understanding and is teaching it...a scholar they are not.

 

[surrender1]

Yeah, I know, try to obey God an you have done wrong, lol. Heard it way to many times. Matter of fact, I covered that on another thread just a few minutes ago.

Post #30 right here...

Two Kinds of Christianity?

How can we know when we've done enough to pass the get into heaven test?

 

[claninja]

The word ἀπολέσαι/apolesai is the aorist, active, infinitive of ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
The definition of apollumi from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26,3 (cf.Sir 20:22).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online​

I agree with you

 

[ClementofA]

Yes, it does. I began studying the matter of ECT long ago, so I am well aware of what "aionios" means. You seem a bit fuzzy on it, so let me offer the following:

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the N.T., save the places noted above (Eph. 3:11; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ro. 16:25, 26; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2) may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18 (18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.) where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philemon 15 (15 For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever), where only in the N.T. it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16; and of His glory, 1 Pe. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, He. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, He. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, He. 5:9..." (pg. 43, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words).

It matters not one whit to the question of ECT whether or not scientists believe in anything eternal. As you can see in the quotation above, the Bible indicates a number of things are eternal. Is an eternal God "a theory that came and went"? I don't think so...

Jesus being the Alpha and Omega does not imply an end to everything but rather the eternal nature of Christ and his sovereign supremacy over all things.

God's years have no end, not because the word eon-ian (aionios) is attached to God, but because, for example, the Bible tells us His years have no end (Psalm 102:27).

God is the God of this present eon which shall come to an end. Does that mean God ends. Obviously not. No more than a person comes to an end when their childhood or teenage years end. Likewise God being eon-ian does not mean He ends or that eonian means eternal. It's simple irrefutable logic.

God as eon-ian (KJV eternal) does not mean endless here:

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Chapter Nine

Even eon-ian (aionios) life is said to have an end, proving it need not mean eternal:

"But even the aiónes will come to an end, Origen tells us: “After aiónios life a leap will take place and all will pass from the aeons to the Father, who is beyond aiónios life. For Christ is Life, but the Father, who is ‘greater than Christ,’ is greater than life” (Comm. in Io 13.3; quoted in Ramelli, p. 160). The Father transcends all ages. In the apokatastasis the entirety of creation will participate in the aḯdios life that is the Creator. God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:24-28). The Origenian notion of eschatological stages sounds strange to our ears today. When was the last time you heard a sermon on the Son delivering his kingdom to the Father in cosmic theosis? Origen’s exegesis should at least challenge our default readings of aiónios and the Eschaton. By contrast, the fire that belongs to the world to come, the pur aiónion, most definitely will come to an end. It may last for a long time, but it is not eternal. Evil has no place in the universal restoration. Konstan and Ramelli elaborate:

Sometimes Eternal Isn’t Forever

"In Origen, the adjective aïdios occurs much less frequently than aiônios, and when it is used, it is almost always in reference to God or His attributes; it presumably means “eternal” in the strict sense of limitless in time or beyond time."

Konstan and Ramelli 6: Aiônios and aïdios in Origen (Guest post, part 6)

We have endless life not because of the word eon-ian, but from immortality & incorruption.

God is not an eternal sadist.

"Many suppose that eonian must denote endlessness when describing God, as in Romans 16:26- "the eonian God." (King James wrongly makes this, "the everlasting God.") No. It’s another overreaction."

"This verse isn’t trying to tell anyone that God lives forever. Everyone already knows God lives forever. Psalm 102:27 testified long ago that "His years shall have no end." It’s old news. The vital question is: Does God sit on high, removed from our struggles in time, or does He care what happens during the eons? He cares. Thus, He is the eonian God. This does not limit Him to the eons any more than "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" limits Him to those patriarchs."

Eonion Life, Not Eternal Life

“For I am the Lord, I do not change;" Malachi 3:6

God is love.

 

[Rajni]

Wow, the scripture mentions sheep and goats and it aromatically has to so do with the one we speak of? Miles apart, nothing to do with each other, and I'd love to speak with the person that first had that understanding and is teaching it...a scholar they are not.

Hey, if one can conclude that God loses most of humanity to hell, one can conclude just about anything!

 

[aiki]

I would argue this has to do with the judgment of Israel because the context leading up to the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 21-24 is about the judgment of Israel.

I think this is stretching for a way around the clear import of the passages I posted about ECT. I don't see Christ issuing judgments upon Israel so much as he condemns constantly the hypocritical religious leaders of Israel (Pharisees, scribes, Sadducees).

Matthew 21:33-45 = parable of wicked tenants: destruction of Israel and kingdom going to another nation

You're indulging in a bit of eisegesis here. Matthew explains what Christ meant very clearly:

Matthew 21:43-45
43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

As I said, Christ is going after the religious leaders of Israel, not Israel itself. Remember, most of the first Christian believers were Jews.

Matthew 22:1-14 = parable of marriage feast: destruction of Israel and kingdom going to others

Nothing about Christ's words confines his parable to Israel and its destruction. In fact, at the end of his parable, Christ simply says,

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

I don't see a restriction of Christ's meaning here. His conclusion is quite generic, in fact.

Matthew 23:1-39 = woes to Pharisees and Jerusalem for killing the prophets.

This whole chapter emphasizes what I was saying about Christ going after the religious leaders of Israel in his parables and teaching. At the end where Christ mourns for Jerusalem held under the wicked sway of the scribes and Pharisees, the emphasis isn't upon condemnation but Christ's sorrow for the Chosen People of God.

My point is that this parable, when taken in context, is not about a future time from us, but about the end of the age/world and judgment for Israel as God's chose people.

Again, this is eisegesis at work. Nothing in the text itself gives us to think you're right and the larger context of Matthew you've referred to helps you very little in the conclusion you're drawing here. I think the usual, common understanding of this text as teaching ECT is quite justified.

 

[claninja]

"Sheep" = ALL people that did right and went to heaven

"Goats" = ALL people that did not do as Christ demands and love their neighbor, and were cast into outer darkness/Hell.

"claninja" = someone who has listened to false teachers that go to great lengths to twist the word to make it appear we don't need to do as we must in order to get to heaven.

Believing what you do is your business, but are you absolutely certain you want to teach it to others?

Could you point to what part was twisted?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Could you point to what part was twisted?

The part that had to do with my quotes. The part where it is pretended the scripture doesn't cover everyone to be more precise.

 

[Anguspure]

Daniel 12:2, "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, ...to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel was written about 700 years BC as I read it, it does not say that those who awake to to shame and everlasting contempt will die again or be saved.

However with the repeated (ad nauseum) Biblical warning that the penalty for sin is death, one might expect that those who are found to be sinners in this resurrection/judgement period would in fact experience death and not some other form of eternal life.

 

[claninja]

The part that had to do with my quotes. The part where it is pretended the scripture doesn't cover everyone to be more precise.

Not following you. could you be more specific

 

[Anguspure]

Yep. Time slows too as you get into high gravity field. From the perspective of everyone else you'd be falling for Eternity.

It seems that much of what we debate in respect of what the Bible has to say about the world that exists beyond the 4 corners of our physical world comes down misunderstood perspective.
While we are arguing "no but", a step or two backwards reveals a "yes and". Something about wise men and elephants comes to mind.

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

As regards the "chosen", chosen for what...to be God's special teensie club of "only ever saved"? It doesn't say that. Consider rather:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created." (James 1:18)

"The “elect” were those chosen as followers of Christ being the first fruits in the outworking of this redemption. Thus election had NOTHING to do with ‘eternal destinies’ BUT everything to do with who was called to serve in God’s redemptive programme ON BEHALF OF all else."

Few means few, but all means all...Rom.5:18-19, etc.

 

[Kenny'sID]

How can we know when we've done enough to pass the get into heaven test?

If you want to teach untruths, you really need to get some new material to pretend to back it with.

In answer, how bout when you are told "Well done good and faithful servant"

What, you may ask, was well done? What you need to do, proving things need to be done right here before you very eyes, and with scripture. But go ahead and tell me the "well done" means something else there...and let me see if I've heard it before..

 

[Kenny'sID]

Not following you. could you be more specific

No.