To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[surrender1]

I just don't see evidence for universalism in the Bible. The case is much stronger for annihilation. Somehow i still believe in ect however. I have this hope that I'm wrong but i like to play it on the safe side.

The evidence for annihilation is stronger than the other two. The evidence of ECT isn't even in the race. And the evidence for Universalism is somewhat weak but is there. I err on the side of faith and trust in the God revealed to us in the person of Jesus. I have no fear. I don't want my kids to have fear. I want them to live in the security of the arms of our Father without question or doubt of his absolute love for them.

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (The action of destroying is done by God.)

"If apollumi meant destruction according to the traditional definition by those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation, then Jesus is lost forever:

"But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and DESTROY (apollumi) Jesus." Matt. 27:20

What Does it Mean to "Perish?"

Also there is John 2:19:

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:19

So i'd suggest Matt.10:28 offers no proof that the Scriptures do not support universal salvation.

************************************


"Love NEVER fails." (1 Cor. 13:8) T or F

"With God NOTHING is impossible." (Luke 1:37) T or F

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11) (Remember, answer OUT LOUD True or False to each of these statements.)

"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11) T or F

"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation." (Col. 1:19, 21, 22) T or F

In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21) T or F

The Gospel is "good tidings of great joy will be to ALL people." (Luke 2:10) T or F

Believers in Christ are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13) T or F

God appointed Jesus "heir of ALL THINGS, and through whom He made the universe." (Heb. 1:2) T or F

"No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." (John 6:44) T or F

"As God gave Jesus authority over ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as God have Him." (John 17:2) T or F

The Father "has given ALL THINGS into Jesus' hands." (John 13:3) T or F

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[cuja1]

The evidence for annihilation is stronger than the other two. The evidence of ECT isn't even in the race. And the evidence for Universalism is somewhat weak but is there. I err on the side of faith and trust in the God revealed to us in the person of Jesus. I have no fear. I don't want my kids to have fear. I want them to live in the security of the arms of our Father without question or doubt of his absolute love for them.

I don't know. Phrases like their worm never dies and the smoke of their torment rises forever give me pause. Then to say everlasting punishment. I'd say the case is pretty good for etc. It's still alot of connect the dots though especially in the light of so many verses saying the punishment for sin is death.

That said, I've suffered a lot from fear of hell and i can understand you not wanting any bad things to come your children's way. If it is God's will for us to believe in etc i think we should accept it. I just think that God may be too complicated for us to fully comprehend at times.

 

[Alithis]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

The link youve added is a load of mostly one mans opinion.
Tested it does not agree with God at all and verses it presents are twisted beyond recognition of thier simple meanings .
Which is no surprise being thatvthey are demonicly inspired opinions.

as for your post it in itself begins by presenting an incomplete and False foundation.
The bible does not Threaten hell fire.
It states it is a place prepared for the devil and his angels eternal beings for whom there can only be eternal punishment because thier sin is eternal.
It states that sin leads to this place of eternal seperation to god who is life.
It does not threaten it .it reveals the truth that we are already headed there and presents the good news of a way of escape through Jesus.

Peole like you donot want to take the way he has so graciously offered .preferring instead to continue in your own way.
Arrogantly spiting in his face and making up fables to please your own ears .

But God is not moved by your fables.
He has stated the way in which tobe saved from that death we are already in.
No charge can be brought against God if you continue.in your own way and reject the One way he has provided .thats fully upon your own head.

 

[ToBeLoved]

As i see it literal translations of Daniel 12:2 do not prove the view of endless punishment of the wicked:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;

CLOT
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."

The Hebrew word for eonian above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations
in the OT & other writings. Likewise with AIONION in the Greek Septuagint of Daniel 12:2.

The word OLAM occurs again in verse 3 of Daniel 12 in the words "OLAM and further" (see CLOT above) showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2.

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

There again, likewise, OLAM is of limited duration.

"My Torah commentary (German version of the Plaut Chumash) says, that the
Rabbis understood forever (Hebrew olam) as until the Jubilee year. Rabbi Ibn Ezra: – “Le’olam, ‘for ever,' merely means a long time, i.e. till the year of jubilee."
Greek EIS TON AIOoNA - what does it mean? (Micah, Torah, traditions) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Isaiah 45:
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Psa.145:21
New American Standard Bible
My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

Just to interject, since we are talking about the Hebrew word in Hebrews 12:2, it is specifically the word

‘ō·w·lām — 208 Occurrences.

The root word of this word is OLAM.

And I think this one is pretty clear at everlasting.

 

[ClementofA]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (The action, once again, is God, doing the punishing, and taking vengeance.)

We like to think that God is so good and kind and nicey-nicey that He would never be mean.
The Bible gives a different picture.

"It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

And many other versions similar to YLT.

Eternity Explained

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. (1 Jn. 4:18)

Why does God punish? To correct. Because He is love. Not a sadist.

Love your enemies, Jesus says. He's not a hypocrite, but does the same Himself.

Love never fails (1 Cor 13). It isn't limited to this life only. Then expires.

 

[ClementofA]

Just to interject, since we are talking about the Hebrew word in Hebrews 12:2, it is specifically the word

‘ō·w·lām — 208 Occurrences.

The root word of this word is OLAM.

And I think this one is pretty clear at everlasting.

The verse in discussion is Daniel 12:2, not Hebrews 12:2.

From the opinion of the url below re the word OLAM (#5769) in Daniel 12:2:

Strong's Concordance
olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity
Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Short Definition: forever

Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

 

[Devin P]

What did the Pharisees see? Certainly not the resurrected Christ walking through walls.

All of the people that they knew and saw dead, living again. Lame people that had been lame and disfigured for decades, miraculously healed. Gravely ill individuals healed, or people with incurable diseases healed. Demonically possessed individuals being cleansed. Not typically normal things happening.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The verse in discussion is Daniel 12:2, not Hebrews 12:2.

From the opinion of the url below re the word OLAM (#5769) in Daniel 12:2:

Strong's Concordance
olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity
Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Short Definition: forever

Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

Why don't you look for yourself and then get back to me with your comments. Daniel 12:2 Interlinear: 'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

Strong's most times goes down to the root word, see the little (e) on the page. Yup, variations of that root word.

Sorry to share with you that Strong's is not the end-all-be-all of Bible language.

 

[surrender1]

I don't know. Phrases like their worm never dies and the smoke of their torment rises forever give me pause.

Yeah, well Isaiah wrote that same phrase about the fate of Edom (Is. 34) and I don't see any smoke. John was simply picking up on the same apocalyptic language of the old prophets such as Isaiah.

Then to say everlasting punishment.

Yeah, like everlasting redemption. Our redemption is eternal in the sense that once we are redeemed, it's permanent and irrevocable. Same thing with everlasting punishment. The wicked are destroyed forever (Psalm 92:7), but not forever being destroyed. It is says eternal punishment; not eternal punishing. “Like smoke, the wicked will vanish away” (Psalm 37:20).

I'd say the case is pretty good for etc. It's still alot of connect the dots though especially in the light of so many verses saying the punishment for sin is death.

Yes, which supports eternal destruction or annihilation.

That said, I've suffered a lot from fear of hell and i can understand you not wanting any bad things to come your children's way.

I have zero fear of bad things coming their way in the form of eternal hell. I just don't want them to live their lives in fear, living partially full lives rather than the abundance Christ wants for them.

If it is God's will for us to believe in etc i think we should accept it. I just think that God may be too complicated for us to fully comprehend at times.

There's nothing complicated about love.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Posts 1/5" "God will/will not change His "mind"

This is erroneous theologically!

The many attributes / character traits / nature of the TRI-UNE GOD which are found in the Bible and spirit-led writings!

1. Existent
2. Unified
3. Simple...Holy...Righteous...perfectly Good...omnibenevolence
4. Infinite
5. Eternal
6. Unchanging and unchangeable CHARACTER + attributes
7. All Present (spiritually available)
8. All Sovereign (supreme rule over all)
9. All Knowing (omniscience)
10. All powerful (omnipotence)
11. Perfectly JUST
12. Perfectly LOVING / Merciful
13. Perfectly TRUE / Truthful
14. Perfectly FREE
15. Perfectly separate and pure

"He delights in unchanging love"
"..Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
...The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind...
...Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it...
(“ THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, ‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

God is not dead, asleep, or changing / changeable. He is IMMUTABLE!

 

[Daniel9v9]

There is so much I can write about this subject, but my biggest objection to universalism is this:

How can someone who in sin and rebellion reject Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior have life? What hope is there outside Jesus Christ? Can anyone find any part of Scripture that teaches that if we reject Christ, we will have life?

Christ is the only way, truth and life. Whoever proclaims that even if we don't believe in Christ, we will still have life, preach a false gospel and a lie, whether they preach it knowingly or out of error.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

I do not have proof or anything that exist. But I have seen the Bible come to life. I have seen someone get baptized in the Holy Spirit. I have seen someone get healed in the name of Jesus. And I believe in my parents testimony. And because of this I believe everything in the Bible, including Everlasting torment.

 

[ladodgers6]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

How do you know that anyone will MOT suffer such a fate? Because Jesus spoke more about Hell than any other person in the Bible.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

This is the punishment for the wickedness and sins of the ungodly! Why then can't they also come out of "EVERLASTING" punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So are you suggesting that a unrepentant person who dies, but then repents after death. Can be saved? Sounds like purgatory. Where in Scripture can I find this?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Preach the Gospel of Grace to them. Because it is the power unto Salvation!!!

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: Q1: "How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate ? (eternal spiritual "'torments" in the spiritual realm of the "lake of fire")

A1: Because Jesus and John the Elder in Revelation reveal that TRUE DOCTRINE.

Jesus' Prophecy of Future Judgment of the NATIONS (ethnos) by the Reigning KING on His Throne...

Matthew 25: 31-46 (NASB)
“But when the "Son of Man" comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. (to JUDGE!)
All the NATIONS (ethnos) will be gathered before Him; ...(ethnos = societies, peoples)
and He will separate them (NATIONS (ethnos)) from one another,as the shepherd separates the "sheep" (believing NATIONS) from the
"goats";(UN-believing NATIONS)
and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, (unbelieving societies / "Nations" = goats)
‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. ('lake of fire" in Revelation?)...
46 These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, (unbelieving societies / "Nations" = goats)
BUT the righteous (Nations of believers = sheep) into ETERNAL LIFE.”

Eternal Punishment (Eternal Spiritual Separation) is literal and most definitely Biblical!

The "lake of fire" of Revelation is clearly described.

1. It is a spiritual realm created by God to restrain and separate satan, demons, the un-holy 3, "death", and the bad side of Abraham's Bosom..."Hades".
2. It is a place of eternal separation from the TRI-UNE GOD's spiritual "HEAVENLY REALMS" ...now and in the future: New Heavens and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem
3. At the "Great White Throne Judgment", God SENTENCES UN-BELIEVERS whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's "Book of Life" to dwell therein ETERNALLY (that is a long+long+long time!)

Revelation 20:15 (NASB); SEE ALSO 21:8
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (LAMB'S)"book of life" (believers),
he (un-believer) was thrown into the "lake of fire".

Revelation 20:10..the UNHOLY 3
And the "devil"(SATAN/DRAGON/SERPENT/fallen lucifer etc.) who deceived them was thrown into the "lake of fire and brimstone", where the "beast" (THE anti-christ) and the "false prophet are also; and
they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (that is a long+long+long time!)

Revelation 20:14
Then "death" and "Hades" (CONCEPTS: not places) were thrown into the "lake of fire".
This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 (NASB)
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (unsaved sinners), their part will be in the "lake that burns with fire and brimstone", which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
This is the "first resurrection".
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;
over these the second death has no power,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

And there is no provision for the removal of the Spirits sentenced to reside in the "lake of fire"!!

Where do the unbelievers and condemned go...except the "lake of fire" ?

Luke 13: Jesus...The Narrow Door
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem.
23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be SAVED?"
He said to them,
4 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, (God the Son, Jesus)
because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

John 3...Jesus and John the Baptizer...on being spritually born again from above...
17 (Jesus) For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be SAVED through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; (as to SPIRITUAL POSITION)
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God....
34 (John B.) For He whom God has sent speaks the "words of God"; for He gives (God) the (Holy) Spirit without measure.
35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal LIFE;
BUT he who does not obey (to believe in) the Son will not see life, (eternal) but the WRATH of GOD abides on him.” (not allowed into heaven)

 

[surrender1]

There is so much I can write about this subject, but my biggest objection to universalism is this:

How can someone who in sin and rebellion reject Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior have life? What hope is there outside Jesus Christ? Can anyone find any part of Scripture that teaches that if we reject Christ, we will have life?

Christ is the only way, truth and life. Whoever proclaims that even if we don't believe in Christ, we will still have life, preach a false gospel and a lie, whether they preach it knowingly or out of error.

There is no hope outside of Christ. Abraham didn't know Christ until Christ went to Abraham after Abraham was already dead. And all the other old testament people who died before Christ. And didn't Jesus go preach to spirits after he died?

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: Q2: "...why then can't they (un-believers)... come out of "everlasting punishment"?

A2: Because the all powerful and all everything God has sentenced them to eternal spiritual SEPARATION from Him and His "heavenly spiritual realm". They are in a spiritual PRISON!

 

[surrender1]

OP: Q2: "...why then can't they (un-believers)... come out of "everlasting punishment"?

A2: Because the all powerful and all everything God has sentenced them to eternal spiritual SEPARATION from Him and His "heavenly spiritual realm". They are in a spiritual PRISON!

That theology came from the mind of man, not from the mind of God.

 

[friend of]

People think that God should provide and facilitate for lives lived in sin. God refuses because He detests sin. They choose to reject God in sinful living.

They die and God gives them what they want. What they want is absence from His presence, for when we are in God's presence we will be in total absence of sin. The unbelieving idolaters already made the choice to reject Christ and to follow and serve sin instead.

People (mostly unsaved) are always whining about how unfair God is. Why can't he just let them sin and do what they want. Well, He does! He gives everyone who rejects Him a place to go and be God and their own.

I personally wouldn't wish to spend eternity in a wasteland filled with psychopaths, but hey, the opportunity to be king of that wasteland is surely always present.

Sweet dreams

 

[friend of]

And yeah, I don't know about the "eternal punishment forever" thing.

Probably not going to happen. But there will be a punishment for sure.