To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[ClementofA]

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell. Matthew 10:28

What does that prove? Nothing.

Where does that say those destroyed cannot be saved?

****************************

"The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14) T or F

Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42) T or F

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV) T or F

Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2) T or F

Jesus "did not come to judge the world but to save the WORLD." (John 12:47) T or F

"Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for EVERYONE." (Heb. 2:9) T or F

"Love NEVER fails." (1 Cor. 13:8) T or F

"With God NOTHING is impossible." (Luke 1:37) T or F

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11) (Remember, answer OUT LOUD True or False to each of these statements.)

"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11) T or F

"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation." (Col. 1:19, 21, 22) T or F

In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21) T or F

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Der Alte]

Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Talmud Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

1. No 2. Because there's no indication whatsoever in the Bible or just in general that they come out. 3. God lessons punishments he gives to individuals all the time while they are alive espsicully if someone is praying for them or someone in the group or the group/person themselves repenting. Hell/lake of fire takes place after death, it's not the same thing as Moses wandering for 40 years or Jonahs situation. It's not the same thing as if god punished me for turning away from him in life or sin.

 

[Devin P]

Thomas had seen Jesus' miracles, was told by Him that He would rise, & told by other disciples that they had seen the risen Lord. Yet he refused to believe.

Peter denied the Lord 3 times.

David stole a man's wife & had him murdered.

That is the breadth of his mercy to those who believe.

Peter did deny Him 3 times, but God knew he would before the earth was even created. Because of Peter's faith, he was forgiven. All of us a sinners, and fall short of the glory of God. The thing that justifies us is Christ. We alone, cannot justify ourselves. A sin is a sin is a sin. Whether it's cursing, or murder. A sin is a sin, and the wage of sin is death. Always. God is a just God, and will always serve justice. That's His purpose. Christ was a way so that, no matter what, despite our wickedness, there would be a way out for at least some. Obviously not all will be saved, especially the God-less society we live in today, and it's only going to get worse. But that's where faith kicks in.

As far as David, it was a mistake, yes, but God's grace, and mercy is without bounds. As the bible says, "where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more". As long as you don't live in constant sin (a specific sin you're constantly living in and refusing to give up - masturbation for example) you are fine. Nothing we can do can save us, and you will make mistakes along the way. No one is perfect, but as long as you know that you are saved because of Christ, and you avoid consistent, repetitive sin, and you cast off the things that cause you to fall into sin (patterns, habits, situations, people, items, etc.) then you'll be absolutely fine, so long as you pull as close to him and try to make an effort to develop a loving, genuine relationship with him through his word.

As far as Thomas goes, yeah. You're right, but when he saw, he believed. The Pharisees saw as well, and didn't believe. The point is, he believed. Belief in him, cleanses all sin. The belief in him, means you believe in his promise. What he was doing, was sacrificing himself so that all sins - through him - are forgiven for those who believe. Therefore, if you believe, all of your sins are forgiven. Even a lack of faith. Through prayer, all the things you lack, he will distribute, generously. You'll have to go through growth and work on solidifying your relationship with him so he can trust you with the more beautiful gifts, but if you need something, all you have to do is ask, and believing, you shall receive.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (The action of destroying is done by God.)

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (The action, once again, is God, doing the punishing, and taking vengeance.)

We like to think that God is so good and kind and nicey-nicey that He would never be mean.
The Bible gives a different picture.

"It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31

Greetings @pollyton
The worse woman raping serial killer does not go to hell for raping and killing.
If he goes to hell it is because he never accepted Jesus into his heart.

The unpardonable sin is Rejecting Christ

So if it is by refusing to allow Jesus to become Lord of your Life that keeps you from eternity with God.

Then it is NOT GOD that sends anyone to hell. It ultimately is truly by their own choice.
That choice being.....refused the Blood of Christ which could have saved them.

Blessings
FCJ

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (The action of destroying is done by God.)

We are spirit and we have a soul. Which is our mind, will and emotions and we live in a body.

When we are born again God places His Spirit in us. Separation of God is loosing His spirit.

Our Spirit houses the soul.
So in hell your spirit, feels and taste and smells and thinks etc

The scripture does not say destroyed as done away with or non existing

The act of destroying by God as you said is His Final Judgment. ...... without Christ God will find you Guilty......That's not Gods doing.
He Will Judge All as it is written
With Christ then He Judges with Redemption

Blessings
FCJ

 

[ClementofA]

Either the Bible is true, or it isn't.
If it isn't, then there is no guarantee of anything.
But if the Bible is true, then it has to be 100% true, or we'd be back at square one.

On the other hand... if the Bible is 100% true, then we know hell exists forever, and the torment lasts forever.
Revelation 14:10-11

If something is "forever" then no "and ever" can be added to it. It doesn't make sense.

"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation":

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

The Eon of the Eons, A. E. Knoch


Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; (Rev.14:11)

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; (Rev.14:11)

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, (Rev.14:11)

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; (Rev.14:11)

Concordant Literal Version
And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. (Rev.14:11)

And many others likewise, without the self-contradictory "forever AND ever".

 

[surrender1]

At death, it's over.

Scripture that says "it's over at death"?

 

[ClementofA]

But why would God punish them eternally? Why doesn't he just kill them? I understand some Christians believe that hell is not eternal.

God is cruel and twisted if hell is eternal.

Indeed. Why not just keep loving them until they're saved, even if it takes a billion times a billion eons? God tells us to love our enemies. Is He a hypocrite?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Scripture that's says "it's over at death"?

Greetings @surrender1
@ToBeLoved was referring to Grace
Either when Jesus comes for us or
When one dies.
Those two situations or dates are when Grace to be saved is stopped for any individual.

Blessings
FCJ

 

[cuja1]

Yes, cut off. Like the prodigal son for whom the father never gave up hope and patiently awaited his return. Love never gives up.

Maybe those in hell are sons that never decided to come home.

 

[ClementofA]

For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Christ Jesus. Romans 6:23

Regarding Romans 6:23 i don't see this as an especially difficult scripture for the all will be saved eventually opinion. Perhaps you've seen the following here before from Hillsage or others, so it will be old news for you.

It seems to me there are at least two ways universalists can harmonize Romans 6:23 with universalism, thus:

1) Romans 6:23 does not deny that all will eventually recieve the gift of eternal life. Thus it is in harmony with passages believed to support UR, e.g. Rom. 5:18-19 of the previous chapter of Romans. Or Lamentations 3:31, no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (NIV). Or 1 Tim.2:4-6 & 4:10, etc.

2) In more literal translations Romans 6:23 is speaking of eonian life (CLV, YLT, Roth, WEY, etc) not eternal life, which Jesus said believers would obtain in the eon (age) to come (Mk.10:30). While Paul & the author of Revelation both speak of more than one eon to come (e.g. Eph.2:7). Thus eonian life can be understood as ending at the end of the next eon, to be followed by at least one more eon or age. BTW, the early church father, Origen, spoke of what is "after eonian life" (eternal life, KJV).

Thus Romans 6:23 harmonizes with passages that speak of the chosen [church] as "firstfruits" of His creatures (James 1), each in His own order/class raised to immortality, first Christ, then the church & finally the end class [those who die in sin] (1 Cor.15:22-28), God the Saviour of all, but "especially" those who believe now [in this life] (1 Tim.4:10), a ransom for all...to be testified in its own eras (1Tim.2:4-6), proclamations to the dead (1Pet.3:18-20; 4:6), etc.

References & for further reading on these subjects, particularly point 2 above:

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

The Eonian Times, by Leon A. Bynoe
Kolasis
Eonion Life, Not Eternal Life
What is "Eonian Life"?
Vol 2, 3. Eonian Life
Eonian Life, by M. Jaegle
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/comparative_concordance_aion.html
http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.ca/2011/02/konstan-and-ramelli-6-aionios-and.html

 

[surrender1]

Maybe those in hell are sons that never decided to come home.

Well, I don't think it's hell like only men can imagine hell (i.e. to bring pain out of revenge). But I do think it will be a time of purging and refining, which is painful in spiritual way. No one can convince me that God's punishment is anything but corrective and for good.

 

[surrender1]

Greetings @surrender1
@ToBeLoved was referring to Grace
Either when Jesus comes for us or
When one dies.
Those two situations or dates are when Grace to be saved is stopped for any individual.

Blessings
FCJ

Grace comes to an end at death according to what scripture?

 

[ClementofA]

As far as Thomas goes, yeah. You're right, but when he saw, he believed. The Pharisees saw as well, and didn't believe. The point is, he believed.

What did the Pharisees see? Certainly not the resurrected Christ walking through walls.

 

[surrender1]

@surrender1 Greetings,
Your understanding of God and His Ways are lacking understanding.

This is a season of Grace.
In the book of the Revelation of Jesus
It is Recorded when God's Grace for this world runs out.

Let me say it in a natural way.
ROAD EQUALS TIME
SIGNS EQUALS GOD'S GRACE.

Your driving down a road at 150 mph.
You have been told the road ends and there is a concrete wall then down you go and life over.

You keep blowing by these signs we will call God's Grace. These signs say stop and turn now for the road ends.

You keep on going insisting God will change His mind and extend the road for you.

Sign after sign goes by and you keep insisting that God will change His mind and extend the road for you.

At last you come to the last sign. It reads last chance. It's now or NEVER.....you keep going thinking God will extend your road.

Then BOOM you HIT THE WALL and down you go.
RIDE OVER. ....FINISHED.....JUDGED....SENTENCED TO HELL.
That's just the way it is
Blessings
FCJ

Love never gives up. (Jesus 101)

 

[cuja1]

Well, I don't think it's hell like only men can imagine hell (i.e. to bring pain out of revenge). But I do think it will be a time of purging and refining, which is painful in spiritual way. No one can convince me that God's punishment is anything but corrective and for good.

I just don't see evidence for universalism in the Bible. The case is much stronger for annihilation. Somehow i still believe in ect however. I have this hope that I'm wrong but i like to play it on the safe side.

 

[ClementofA]

Daniel 12:2 shows that some will rise to what?
shame and everlasting contempt

contempt=abhor

This abhor time is shown to occcur at the time of the new earth - Isaiah 66:24. It tells that the men that transgressed God will be abhorred.

As i see it literal translations of Daniel 12:2 do not prove the view of endless punishment of the wicked:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;

CLOT
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."

The Hebrew word for eonian above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations
in the OT & other writings. Likewise with AIONION in the Greek Septuagint of Daniel 12:2.

The word OLAM occurs again in verse 3 of Daniel 12 in the words "OLAM and further" (see CLOT above) showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2.

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

There again, likewise, OLAM is of limited duration.

"My Torah commentary (German version of the Plaut Chumash) says, that the
Rabbis understood forever (Hebrew olam) as until the Jubilee year. Rabbi Ibn Ezra: – “Le’olam, ‘for ever,' merely means a long time, i.e. till the year of jubilee."
Greek EIS TON AIOoNA - what does it mean? (Micah, Torah, traditions) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Isaiah 45:
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Psa.145:21
New American Standard Bible
My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.