Can you be saved without Christ?

[ananda]

The Prophets were accompanied by signs and miracles.

The problem with this is:

1. I cannot say that I've seen these signs and miracles for myself, and I would doubt that you have, too;
2. Even if there were signs and miracles, they do not prove that they originate from an Almighty, Infinite deity. E.g. I can do things myself which appear miraculous to beings of lesser knowledge and intelligence - like children, animals, insects. It does not make me the Almighty Deity.

Please give a straight forward example. Appear to everyone in the sky etc.

Appearing to everyone in the sky still does not prove that such a person originates from the Almighty, Infinite.

I was instead thinking about fixed Laws of Reality, things like the Law of Cause and Effect (everything is governed by cause & effect), for example.

 

[nChrist]

All the verses you quote come from the Christianity created after 70 A.D. True Christianity is very close to Judaism and Islam.

No - Judaism and Islam deny the most important fact that is the foundation of Salvation: The Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son, One with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[brinny]

I would have to say that you must first:

1. Prove that there are "condemned";
2. Prove that there are "sins" against a supreme deity;
3. Prove that someone shed their blood, and that it was effective against "sins";
4. Prove that they "rose from the dead", and for what purpose?

Me? Personally?

We've just reached a quagmire. I am not the living God. He speaks through His Word. He has already stated WHO is the Savior and has taken away the sins of the world (those who confess Him as the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living) and Who has shed His innocent, spotless blood, dying, and rising again, and will be coming again as Conqueror.

If i remember correctly, you are familiar with the Bible, God's Word, are you not?

 

[brinny]

Where does God demand the shedding of innocent blood?

Are you referring to the living God, El Elyon, God Most High?

 

[Sam91]

All the verses you quote come from the Christianity created after 70 A.D. True Christianity is very close to Judaism and Islam.

It is believed Romans was written in AD 56-57

Paul died between July AD 64- but before Nero's reign ended in AD 68

EDIT
I don't wish to be disrespectful my friend, but I find it strange that you would quibble about a date when the Quran wasn't written until the 600's AD

 

[brinny]

Yes call him what you wish, Eloh, Alah, God, El, Yahweh etc Just show me from his previous Scriptures sent to the Jewish people.

I haven't named Him. He has already said WHO He is and the dilemma of any who come face to face with Him without His only begotten Son's covering of righteousness. To those, His wrath is upon them. This verse gives a warning:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

Are you familiar with the book of Isaiah?

 

[ananda]

Me? Personally?

We've just reached a quagmire. I am not the living God. He speaks through His Word. He has already stated WHO is the Savior and has taken away the sins of the world (those who confess Him as the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living) and Who has shed His innocent, spotless blood, dying, and rising again, and will be coming again as Conqueror.

If i remember correctly, you are familiar with the Bible, God's Word, are you not?

I was a Christian for 3 decades, so I am quite familiar with the Bible.

 

[Sam91]

And this is the original letter written by him? Was he a disciple of Jesus pbuh and did all the Companions of the Prophet Jesus pbuh agree with this man?

I wasn't offended in the slightest. I'm putting the Qur'an aside and just examining the evidence you present.

Not by Jesus. He was a Pharisee, very learned. He persecuted Jesus' followers until Jesus appeared to him and blinded him. This is in the book of Acts. He then realised what was right and became zealous for the Lord.

 

[Lukaris]

All the verses you quote come from the Christianity created after 70 A.D. True Christianity is very close to Judaism and Islam.

Don't lecture us on the sanctity of the Bible. You can say you do not believe our faith but you cannot redefine it on your own corrupt and deceitful terms. For us to deny Jesus Christ as God and savior is to deny God ( John 3:16-21 ).

If you do not honestly understand the Gospel then the Lord will examine your heart ( Romans 2 ). Beware of where you tread ( Mark 3:27-29 ).

 

[brinny]

I was a Christian for 3 decades, so I am quite familiar with the Bible.

Then you are familiar with the book of Isaiah, and Genesis, for instance?

 

[brinny]

Is it regarding the chapter on a man who wasn't very good looking, was ridiculed and despised by his community, was always having rotten luck and misfortune? It was decided he would be punished for the transgressions of others, but ultimately he would repent and his life extended, so he would live to see his seed flourish?

Jewish Scholars say this is talking about the Jewish people as a whole. Or are you referring to another Chapter found in the book of Isaiah?

I asked about the book of Isaiah. None of that is in the book of Isaiah, God's Word.

 

[brinny]

You left after 3 decades? Did the Holy Spirit not guide you? I'm told all Christians are guided by it, and it's not something that can be explained until you accept Jesus pbuh as Lord and Saviour.

This is most interesting. Can you elaborate on the Holy Spirit? What is your understanding Him?

 

[ananda]

The Messengers weren't sent to people of lesser intelligence or those with developing minds, children. The peers of their time either accepted the truth being presented or rejected it. some of the Nations were later destroyed or conquered by others, and again Messengers were sent.

Do you have personal, direct knowledge of these messengers and their message? What I mean is: have you met these messengers for yourself, and are you completely sure of their message and its meaning?

I agree and used it as a plain English example.

I'm still awaiting for a straight forward answer, how do you thing God could use the Laws you mention to communicate with us in a convincing manner?

I don't know if it originates from "God" or not, but I think such laws are self-evident to me: all things are subject to change (a law governing reality), various phenomena arises from prior causes (another law), and the cessation of causes ends the arising of phenomena (another law).

IMO another truth regarding reality: In terms of our experience, we experience various degrees of discontentment and suffering due to such changes, and we seek to end this experience of discontentment and suffering through our every action.

In conclusion, the "message" - as I understand it - is that we are to utilize the Laws governing Reality in a wise manner to transcend such experiences of suffering.

 

[ananda]

Then you are familiar with the book of Isaiah, and Genesis, for instance?

Yes, why do you ask?

 

[ananda]

You left after 3 decades? Did the Holy Spirit not guide you? I'm told all Christians are guided by it, and it's not something that can be explained until you accept Jesus pbuh as Lord and Saviour.

I can't say I ever met the Holy Spirit.

Many Christians suggested that various feelings I had were "evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit", but I didn't want feelings. I wanted to meet "the Person". I wanted proof, not evidence.

Evidence is not proof; evidence can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

 

[brinny]

Yes, why do you ask?

You must be aware then, that both of these books are prophetic regarding the defeat of Satan, the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning, and his defeat will come?

 

[ananda]

You must be aware then, that both of these books are prophetic regarding the defeat of Satan, the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning, and his defeat will come?

I am aware that these books claims these things ... why do you ask?

 

[Sam91]

Acts was written by Luke, the Disciple of Paul. Did the Disciples of Jesus pbuh accept this book of Acts and did they accept the letters written by Paul? Did you say if you still have the original letters?

They accepted Paul.

Your questions are getting to the point of hypocrisy. Did anyone see the Angel Gabriel apoear to your prophet multiple times over the years he was writing the Quran.

There is one authority you would be much better asking and relying on. That is God's. You should ask Him sincerely and humbly. He most likely would answer you.

 

[brinny]

For Muslims, the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel, on whom be peace.

Why didn't you post "angel gabriel" then?

As you may be aware, "angels" are never to be held up as the living God, El Elyon, according to God's Word the Bible. It's considered an abomination. The living God's Holy Spirit is never to be mis-represented. It's considered a grave sin.

 

[brinny]

For Muslims, the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel, on whom be peace.

Therein lies the crux of how Islamism differs from anything related to Christianity.