Does God Try His Best to Save Everyone?

[Hammster]

I think you were fishing for a theology to filter the passage. Something to reflect the "all kinds of men" thing.

It's not fishing. It's in the context.

 

[GingerBeer]

Well, I never pay "special attention" to a single verse as that makes it to easy to take something out of its pertinent context. As you can see in verse 1, Paul is instructing us to pray for "all" men. Do you think Paul is instructing you to pray for every single person in the entire world?

Paul says to pray for all men, I do that.

 

[GingerBeer]

It's not fishing. It's in the context.

Where is it in the context?

 

[bangmegafan]

And do you think there's a possibility that any that are judged in such a manner will be found worthy of everlasting life?

may be or might not be. that is why Jesus is the way to Kingdom of God

 

[Hammster]

Where is it in the context?

The previous verses that lead up to it. That's what context means. You look at the surrounding verses to try to determine meaning. If you just focus on one verse, you can get it to mean things that were not mean. So if Paul meantions various types of people in the preceding verses, it would make no sense for him to change gears in verse 4. The same principle can be applied to Titus 2:11. "All men" is easily understood as all types since he spends the previous 10 verses describing all types of people.

 

[GingerBeer]

The previous verses that lead up to it. That's what context means. You look at the surrounding verses to try to determine meaning. If you just focus on one verse, you can get it to mean things that were not mean. So if Paul meantions various types of people in the preceding verses, it would make no sense for him to change gears in verse 4. The same principle can be applied to Titus 2:11. "All men" is easily understood as all types since he spends the previous 10 verses describing all types of people.

The previous verse (verse 3) says "This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,"

Titus 2:11 works fine with "all men". It doesn't need "all kinds of men".

Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior. For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Titus 2:9-14
​

 

[Hammster]

The previous verse (verse 3) says "This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,"

Titus 2:11 works fine with "all men". It doesn't need "all kinds of men".

Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior. For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Titus 2:9-14
​

Of course they "work" for you. You have continually ignored context.

And I said "verses", not "verse".

 

[GingerBeer]

Of course they "work" for you. You have continually ignored context.

And I said "verses", not "verse".

Which verses. Show them to me, please.

 

[Hammster]

Which verses. Show them to me, please.

I am not going to continue repeating myself.

 

[GingerBeer]

I am not going to continue repeating myself.

Okay.

 

[Reformationist]

Okay so you're not going to tell me what you think the doctrines of grace are then?

Lol! Are you asking me if I'm going to sum up an entire theological system in a couple of sentences? No. I'm not going to try to do that.

 

[Reformationist]

Paul says to pray for all men, I do that.

Sure you do.

 

[GingerBeer]

Sure you do.

Yes, I do. The Lord's prayer points in that direction I think.

 

[friend of]

@Reformationist

Can you please give me a brief synopsis of what it is you personally believe at all?

....

 

[Reformationist]

@Reformationist

Can you please give me a brief synopsis of what it is you personally believe at all?

....

What I believe about the entirety of Scripture? No. The entirety of Scripture cannot be summarized in a brief statement.

Can you be more specific about what you'd like to know?

 

[Neogaia777]

What I believe about the entirety of Scripture? No. The entirety of Scripture cannot be summarized in a brief statement.

Can you be more specific about what you'd like to know?

How about your POV of the grace doctrine/teaching, or grace in general...? As briefly summarized as you think you possibly can...?

 

[friend of]

Yeah that

 

[Strong in Him]

And this is, in my opinion, the crux of the problem. People see salvation as this gift box, given to us by God. As SIH points out, in this arrangement, if the gift is never opened, that gift is of no benefit. You see, in this abominable view, the obedience of Christ unto death by which salvation is purchased, i.e., the gift, actually saves...no one.

Why is it an abominable view?

Scripture says, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus". I didn't say that; Scripture does.

Let's keep in mind that the "gift" was purchased with Christ's actual work of obedience unto death. Meaning, this "gift" is given to people that never open it yet the work performed to purchase the gift was still performed.

Jesus died for all.
I don't believe, and I am sure that Scripture never says, that Jesus said, "o.k, I know this person ill believe in me, so I'll die for him; that person will never have faith, so I won't die for them." It is clear that Christ died for sinners, and Scripture makes it very clear that we ALL sin.

Therefore, in this completely unbiblical notion, Christ actually died to purchase everlasting life for even those who do not receive it.

If someone doesn't believe in Christ, accept his atoning death on the cross and go to him for eternal life, they don't have salvation and eternal life. So - for them - the effect is the same as if Christ never died; if they continue in that state, they will die in their sins. That doesn't mean that they never had a chance to turn to Christ, believe and receive. When they meet God, they won't be able to say, "well it's not my fault; you had already decided that I wasn't one of your 'elect'."

Remember, you agreed that people can choose. So if someone chooses to always say, "no, I don't believe and I'm not interested"; that is the choice they have made.

Setting aside, for the moment, that such a thought is refuted countless times in Scripture, the notion is, itself, flawed as it introduces a player, man, in the transaction of salvation at the wrong point. The salvation of all who will be saved, and ONLY them, was purposed AND ACCOMPLISHED on the Cross.

So can you explain to me then how that works? Seriously; I've never understood what people mean by this.

Does it mean, as I've just said, that God says to himself, "those people believe/will one day believe in me; Jesus has died/will die for them. But these people will never believe, so therefore Jesus hasn't died for them."
Does it mean that God created all people in his image, but has already chosen some of the people that he created to be sent to hell - he made them but he deliberately doesn't want to give them a chance to know him?

If the first of these is true; Jesus told us to love our enemies and those who hate us. Matthew 5:46-48; "if you love only those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? ........... Be perfect as God is perfect."
Wouldn't it be rather hypocritical for Jesus to instruct us to love our enemies - because we should be perfect as God is perfect - knowing that God is, in fact, selective in his love and will love, and die for, only those who believe in him?
If the second of these questions is true; are you saying that God made all people in his image, knows that all are sinners and need a Saviour but has already decided that only a few of these sinners will have a chance to believe and receive salvation? God IS love; how is that love?

All for whom Christ died have been reconciled to God.

Not everyone, not yet.
Otherwise Jesus would not have commanded us to preach the Gospel and make disciples in all nations. Nor would he have said, on another occasion, that the end would not come until the Gospel had been preached as a testimony to ALL nations, Matthew 24:14.
Why command us to preach the Gospel to all if God has already chosen only a few to be saved? Why not just pray, "Lord, please point out the people who will be saved, and I'll preach to them"? Come to that, why preach at all? If God has already decided that he will save them; why does he need us?

In short, the elect are quickened to life in Christ and imputed with His righteousness.

THAT'S the problem - the belief that some have been elected by God to believe and receive salvation, whereas others have been created by God and left to their own devices, which obviously means hell.

I don't believe that.

He is the passive recipient of God's redemptive grace. A better analogy is that of a man who has flat lined and is resuscitated. The gift was life, and it wasn't done with him. It was done to him.

A person who is physically dead does not know they are physically dead. If they were capable of saying to the doctor, "please go and get that resuscitator and give me life"; they would not be dead.
Someone who is spiritually dead in their sins and separated from God may still be physically alive, capable of walking into a church and responding to the Gospel - drawn there by the Holy Spirit who has been ministering to them.

God is not the Father of the non elect did your analogy doesn't apply.

See above.
I do not believe that God created some people knowing that he would refuse to be their Father and have nothing to do with them.
God has created ALL people in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, put his Spirit, or breath, into them and given them life, Genesis 2:7; ALL people, ALL humankind are alive/have lived because God made them and gave them life and breath. It's true that not everyone knows God as Father and are adopted as his children - but that's because they either don't know, or haven't heard, the Gospel, or have but choose to have nothing to do with it.
Though none of us know what happens between a person and God when they are on the point of death.

 

[Reformationist]

How about your POV of the grace doctrine/teaching, or grace in general...? As briefly summarized as you think you possibly can...?

Sure. Grace is the unmerited favor of God.

 

[Neogaia777]

Sure. Grace is the unmerited favor of God.

Undeserved, unearned, long suffering kindness and nearly infinite patience toward those he favors as well...

I know that much, I was more thinking about how, cause in a previous post you said that you basically thought nothing, absolutely nothing on our part is a requirement, or something we have to do or be able to do or have to have or get it (grace) (we were talking about reconciliation, salvation, justification), but those are all included in bestowing grace on us and come along with the unmerited favor... Then I said that I thought you had to be able to have faith or believe to have what is included in grace, and you agreed on the condition that that faith comes from and is because of God and not us, and I agreed...

But, if a person does not, or does not yet believe, can they have the grace of God on or in their lives...?

I think one can if they are predestined to be one of his in the future, and that they can have the grace of God on them, while in unbelief currently, but God knows, will not be in the future... (I sure know I had some of that grace on and in my life as a youth and did not yet believe back then)...

Anyway, now I'm rambling...

What is my question, I guess your gonna ask...?

Do those who are predestined to not believe and are not his, do they get the grace of God...?

Or just simply not a definition of grace, but what you believe about it...?

God Bless!