Orthodox vs. Protestant belief differences?

[Ron Gurley]

Is there a citation to Scripture to the contrary??

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Dear Dodgers,
The western framework which you are coming from, is alien to our theology which may be why you are getting frustrated with our answers. So for example, Blessed Augustine, considering his works were not translated into Greek until the 9th century (as I vaguely remember), plays almost no role in our theology. So the debates between Augustine and Pelagius are answered by us by the Galllic monk, St. John Cassian. The big theologians for us are St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. Basil.

I would highly recommend reading Kallistos Ware's book, the Orthodox Church, to give you a more complete background into our theology. A good online source for you to review can be found here: The Orthodox Faith .

Christ is ascended!

 

[Ron Gurley]

It is hard for we non-denominational evangelistic "Scriptura Suprema" types to discuss that blatant ADVERTISEMENT that Post # 362 is.

 

[prodromos]

Is there a citation to Scripture to the contrary??

I'm still trying to figure out what you are trying to support with the Scriptures you cited earlier.
You do understand that the oil in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins is a reference to good works? That is the theme underlying the three parables Christ taught in succession. I'm not quite sure what you want to show by citing it.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Did I say to BUY it? You can get it from this thing called a library.

 

[prodromos]

I would highly recommend reading Kallistos Ware's book, the Orthodox Church, to give you a more complete background into our theology.

Don't you mean his latter book, "The Orthodox Way"?
"The Orthodox Church" is more of a history of the Church although he does cover a bit of the theology in the 2nd half of the book. It can be read online for free at the Intratext Library

Christ is ascended!

Indeed! Glorify Him!

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Don't you mean his latter book, "The Orthodox Way"?
"The Orthodox Church" is more of a history of the Church although he does cover a bit of the theology in the 2nd half of the book. It can be read online for free at the Intratext Library

Indeed! Glorify Him!

Prodromos,
I thought Orthodox Church would be better as it gets into the history and basic theology of Orthodoxy. I dont think Dodgers can handle the Orthodox Way.

I've decided to delete my account here on CF after trying to be helpful to Protestants here and getting slapped in the face over and over again. It is no longer beneficial for me to participate here as it simply gets me upset.

I've posted a good bye in TAW.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post #364:"the oil in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins is a reference to "good works"

Wrong. The oil is SPIRIT.

1 Samuel 16:13
Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Acts 1:5
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

OIL + WATER + WIND = SPIRIT

 

[Wolf_Says]

Acts 1:5
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

OIL + WATER + WIND = SPIRIT

I am not Orthodox, I am Catholic, so my place in this thread is iffy, however I just wanted to say you are wrong in regards to your interpretation of water in that verse.

Water is water, plain and simple. It is a symbol of rebirth used throughout the Bible but it is never alone, as it is also with the Spirit. These are 2 different things, water =/= spirit.

Example, Moses and cutting the Red Sea. They are taken from Egypt and slavery through Water and the Spirit of God above them.

Jesus talking about Baptism, and that you need to be born again from Water and Spirit

Noah and the flood, the world is essentially reborn with the flood water and the spirit in the symbol of the dove when Noah finds land.

 

[Silmarien]

It is hard for we non-denominational evangelistic "Scriptura Suprema" types to discuss that blatant ADVERTISEMENT that Post # 362 is.

I've been recommended books by Sola Scriptura Evangelicals before. The correct answer is, "Thank you, I'll take a look," or even, "I'm not fond of that author, but thank you anyway." Not "let's be so rude we chase someone away from the site."

 

[FenderTL5]

Post #364:"the oil in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins is a reference to "good works"

Wrong. The oil is SPIRIT.

Just curious;
since in the parable the oil can be bought and sold:
"..the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came.."
How do you reconcile that with Acts chapter eight which tells us the Holy Spirit can not be purchased with money?
“Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God."

 

[ladodgers6]

POST#333: "You can't be IN Christ without being united to His "body", which is the Church"

MY post #340 contradicts that "theory". !!

I beg to differ. We are united to Christ through Faith Alone.

 

[prodromos]

Post #364:"the oil in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins is a reference to "good works"

Wrong. The oil is SPIRIT.

1 Samuel 16:13
Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.

Jesus spoke 3 parables, one after the other, to drive home the same point. What was the common theme in those 3 parables?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

This is why people caricature your religion. Because people say different things to the questions I ask. Then people get upset with me, when I repeat what I was told.

Anglicanism is wishy-washy because it was trying to placate bloodthirsty Christians on both the Catholic and Protestant side. It's easy for you to sit back and say they should be more definitive, but just putting rails around the altars was one of the major reasons the English Civil War started (and Calvinists absolutely did not tolerate any form of Christianity but theirs, which they made the state form when they took power). I'm not saying any of that justifies their ludicrously liberal stance today, but maybe you should keep that in mind when asking why things aren't more definitive with them.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Yes I understand that God reveals himself through works not His essence. But God does how emotions, right. The biggest ones are Mercy, Grace, and Love. That's all I am saying.


Now if my memory serves right. You guys believe that a person is in by Grace, and stays in by works. Is that fair to say?

God's mercy and grace and love are experientially distinct from his wrath, but ontologically they are the same thing. That is, the light from Christ in his transfiguration, is ontologically the same as hellfire.

Here is an article on Saint Isaac the Syrian (7th Century) explaining it: St Isaac the Syrian: Hell and the Scourge of Divine Love

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

So you are saying, that Paul isn't talking about the whole Law, but only the ceremonial Law?



So that we are not going in circles. What works are you referring too. And what is God's will?

I am saying Paul is talking about the Law of death, the law we came under with the fall, the law applied to the condemned. When we're in prison, we were subject to a particular code of behavior; but Christ freed us from that prison, so the rules convicts are expected to follow no longer apply to us, and there is nothing beneficial in following them; in fact, by following them, you are ignoring what Christ did.

Well there are works like Paul talks about, that is, following the rules the condemned are ordered to follow. Then there are the works that James talks about, which is following God's will in general.

God's will is that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God's will is that we have faith. God's will is that treat the least of these as Christ. God's will is that we do not ask for money owed us. And so on. God has a particular plan for everyone everywhere, though; it was God's will that John the Baptist no touch wine, for instance, whereas it was his will that Christ drink wine.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Let me respond to this first. I asked other EOC members of what their meaning of "ONTOLOGICAL" means? Because I do not want to caricature what they say they believe. Now you guys have said that you don't have written doctrine or sharp lines. But then you guys criticize Augustine. So who determines what is right or wrong in your religion?

But you are missing the point. If people are not evil or have a sinful nature because of the Fall. Then why do they need Grace? Grace is free, given without earning it. This is what is confusing me. If people are in bondage to Satan; how are they in bondage? How did the Fall happen? It seems to me that everything is honky dory. Nothing to worry about. Why so much emphasis on works, when people are not evil or do not have a sinful nature? Please be specific and detailed.

Ontological means pertaining to "on", the Greek word for "being". "Being" in Orthodoxy is comprised of essence and energies (there is essential being, and then there is being as in "to do is to be"; God, for instance, is ontologically the Creator in energies, but not in essence).

We have sharp lines where Christ drew them, and which are witnessed by the consensus of saints. We don't agree with Saint Augustine because he is not in accord with Patristic consensus.

People have a sinful nature if by "nature" you mean energies. They don't if you mean essence. Man is essentially good, because he is made in the image of God. To say the image of God is essentially evil, does not make sense.

People are in bondage to Satan because his the prince of this world, which he became with the fall. And, of course, we cannot do good without God willing it (and never could, since good is precisely doing what God wills). Humanity is not "naturally" immortal, only God is--humanity is actually "naturally" mortal. But humanity can partake of immortality when in communion with God; however, with the fall, we ceased to share that communion, and therefore came under the law of death, and Satan is the master of death.

I think the issue here is that you seem to see humanity as naturally immortal, and death as a punishment God metes out to everyone who inherits Adam's guilt. We don't really see it that way. God composes man, but without God, man naturally decomposes. If God makes his energies manifest in you, and you are not pure (harmonious with the energies), these energies feel like tormenting fire. That is why it is stressed so much in the NT to NOT take communion except with a "clean conscience," otherwise it will be extremely harmful to you. If God kept us from death in an impure state, we would end up either as demons, or as the subjects of constant agony in hellfire.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Jesus spoke 3 parables, one after the other, to drive home the same point. What was the common theme in those 3 parables?

Saint Seraphim of Sarov says, "the oil is not the good deeds, but the grace of the All-Holy Spirit of God which is obtained through good deeds and which changes souls from one state to another"
Saint Seraphim of Sarov: On the Acquisition of the Holy Spirit. Conversation with Motovilov / OrthoChristian.Com

 

[Ron Gurley]

POST #374: "Jesus spoke 3 parables (in Matthew 25) , one after the other, to drive home the same point. What was the common theme in those 3 parables?"

The THREE points of the 3 UNRELATED PARABLES ARE:

Matthew 25 (NASB)

(A) 13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.(of the Second Coming of JESUS, the Bridegroom)

(B) 29 “For to everyone who has (FAITH/GRACE!), more shall be given, and he will have an abundance;
but from the one who does not have (FAITH/GRACE!), even what he does have shall be taken away.

(C) 46 These (unbelieving goat NATIONS {ethnos}) will go away into "eternal punishment",
but the righteous (believing sheep NATIONS {ethnos}) into "eternal life.”

Matthew 13:10,13,34 [ Jesus' Explanation of PARABLE USE ]
And the disciples came and said to Him,
“Why do You speak to them (UNBELIEVERS!) in parables?”
Therefore I speak to them (UNBELIEVERS!) in parables;
because while seeing they do not see, and
while hearing they do not hear,
nor do they understand.
All these things Jesus spoke to the (UNBELIEVING) crowds in parables, and
He did not speak to them without a parable.

The Divine Jesus could "see" into the souls and spirits of ALL mankind whom He encountered

Matthew 9:4
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said,
“Why are you thinking evil in your hearts?

Mark 2:8
Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them,
“Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?