Is God a liar?

[BobRyan]

I disagree of course as the Bible doesn't teach the principle of continuity. The Big Bang has so many problems that even according to science it refutes itself. (If this principle was true then why didn't Jesus mention it?)
I feel basing your scripture interpretation on science is like building your house on sand. What happens when the Big Bang gets rejected?
The Bible foundation is LIFE created the universe while modern day science foundation is the universe created life. One is solid as a rock while the other is self refuting.

You are right that the atheist model of "Big Bang" is that "everything comes from nothing" instead of "out of nothing - nothing comes".

But the one thing that is true about the BB - is that there is a beginning for everything - for all the universe "In the beginning God made"

 

[BobRyan]

I'm certainly not looking to "get anywhere".

Tell me what it is about the creation account, as it is written, that is anything but factually written.
Tell me what part was not possible for God to do.
Tell me where you got the facts to question God's written word.

If you are offended by my stating that I don't think you would believe the death and resurrection of Christ, and all His miraculous acts, unless your salvation depended on it, maybe ask yourself "why"? Why are you offended? Why do you accept the supernatural events of Christ's life but pass off the supernatural events of creation, as allegory?

Tell me..........why do you believe the supernatural events of Christ's life? They are pretty outrageous. Pretty miraculous. Pretty easy to just say it was a story, told by His friends. Told so they could create a religion. Told to create popularity. Told to gain fame.....

So, what is it about the two different events that cause you to believe one and reject the other.

Excellent post!

The 100% accurate historic events of the Bible

7 day creation week
world wide flood
virgin birth
bodily resurrection of Christ
bodily ascension of Christ into heaven
miracles of the Bible

==================

As you point out - some will "pick and choose via preference" to accept some while rejecting others

 

[Aman777]

That is not the way it works. The thin skin of the planet has a thin atmosphere around it. That is the easy part.

In Genesis 1 we are told that the birds fly in that .

Who is speaking of another Planet? Not me. I speak of another world, a flat world whose highest mountains are only 22.5 feet high Gen 7:20 and which has only 4 rivers which all come from the same source. Gen 2:10 These verses are speaking of Adam's world which was totally destroyed in the flood. ll Peter 3:6

Birds were made to fly in the open firmament of Adam's Heaven AND the present Heaven AND they will also be in the 3rd Heaven. Since Adam's Heaven/Universe was "clean dissolved" in the flood, birds can no longer fly in it. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

But the one thing that is true about the BB - is that there is a beginning for everything - for all the universe "In the beginning God made"

Amen, except you have confused God's creation of air, dust and water with the present Universe which was caused by Lord God or Jesus on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4 Adam's first Heaven was totally destroyed in the flood. 2Pet3:6 That is WHY the Holy Spirit refers to it as the world (Grk-Kosmos) that THEN WAS. In the next verse He speaks of the heavens and Earth WHICH ARE NOW so there won't be any confusion.

 

[Speedwell]

What is it about the Anglican denomination that makes it the most credible? Wasn't the Catholic church the one directly founded by Peter, who was the first Pope from Jesus passing the torch of leadership to him?

Well, of course. But things happen. I consider myself "high church" and would not find much trouble in converting, if necessary.

 

[RDKirk]

All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...

Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?

What do you believe?

What did God actually "say" regarding creation?

The scripture writers specify each time God actually "spoke" words: "...thus saith the Lord" and such.

In other cases, God revealed His activity via dreams and visions--usually without "narration." Or persons had experiences they realized were of God and were left to write them down as well as their level of understanding permitted.

So how was creation revealed? Apparently by a vision, leaving the writer to explain what he saw as his level of understanding permitted.

But what if the vision is of events that spanned 13 billion years, such as from the moment of the Big Bang to the moment the sun and moon were visible from the surface of the earth? What did that vision look like? How could an early Bronze Age man interpret that?

Even if God had narrated such a thing, how could an early Bronze Age man have understood the interpretation and repeated it to anyone else?

How else would you expect it to have been written by that early Bronze Age man except as it is?

 

[Aman777]

What did God actually "say" regarding creation?

The scripture writers specify each time God actually "spoke" words: "...thus saith the Lord" and such.

In other cases, God revealed His activity via dreams and visions--usually without "narration." Or persons had experiences they realized were of God and were left to write them down as well as their level of understanding permitted.

So how was creation revealed? Apparently by a vision, leaving the writer to explain what he saw as his level of understanding permitted.

But what if the vision is of events that spanned 13 billion years, such as from the moment of the Big Bang to the moment the sun and moon were visible from the surface of the earth? What did that vision look like? How could an early Bronze Age man interpret that?

Even if God had narrated such a thing, how could an early Bronze Age man have understood the interpretation and repeated it to anyone else?

How else would you expect it to have been written by that early Bronze Age man except as it is?

The bronze age man wrote the words the Holy Spirit moved him to write from inside him. 2Pe 1:21 The best example is that the Holy Spirit tells us in Genesis that God made a Multiverse composed of three Heavens or worlds. The first Heaven was made the 2nd Day. Gen 1:8 The other Heavens (Plural) were not made until the 3rd Day Gen 2:4 and that included the world WHICH IS NOW and the third Heaven of ll Cor 12:2 and Rev 21:1. Only God, the Holy Spirit could have possibly known the most recent scientific discoveries of our time thousands of years ago. It's proof that we live in the last days, just before Jesus returns. God Bless you

 

[Meowzltov]

So how was creation revealed? Apparently by a vision, leaving the writer to explain what he saw as his level of understanding permitted.

It NEVER ever says that. Genesis 1 is a Creation Myth, not a vision. Don't change the Genre.

 

[RDKirk]

It NEVER ever says that. Genesis 1 is a Creation Myth, not a vision. Don't change the Genre.

Creation myth? Is that Roman Catholic doctrine? That creation is merely myth?

 

[Speedwell]

Creation myth? Is that Roman Catholic doctrine? That creation is merely myth?

That's what it is. A myth is any story, factual or not, which deals with the early history of a people or explainins some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. We can argue whether it is 100% accurate literal history or not, but it's a myth either way.

 

[Smidlee]

You are right that the atheist model of "Big Bang" is that "everything comes from nothing" instead of "out of nothing - nothing comes".

But the one thing that is true about the BB - is that there is a beginning for everything - for all the universe "In the beginning God made"

There is nothing Christian about the Big Bang except the universe had a beginning. It's still based on the principle of continuity which is not scriptural.
I know Christian tries to claim God is behind the Big Bang but with God you don't need the Big Bang.

 

[Humble Servant of Christ]

There is nothing Christian about the Big Bang except the universe had a beginning. It's still based on the principle of continuity which is not scriptural.
I know Christian tries to claim God is behind the Big Bang but with God you don't need the Big Bang.

Please define your definition of the principle of continuity

 

[Meowzltov]

Creation myth? Is that Roman Catholic doctrine? That creation is merely myth?

Creation is not a myth. But Genesis 1 is a myth, and that is a COMPLIMENT because myth is the strongest genre in which to convey eternal truths. But you can't take it as historical. The chapter was originally a song. The phrase, "And there was evening and there was morning, the X day," is a REFRAIN, not a 24 hour period of time. And we know the order of events was different. For example, the fossil record shows that birds evolved much later than animal life, not before.

 

[RDKirk]

Creation is not a myth. But Genesis 1 is a myth, and that is a COMPLIMENT because myth is the strongest genre in which to convey eternal truths. But you can't take it as historical. The chapter was originally a song. The phrase, "And there was evening and there was morning, the X day," is a REFRAIN, not a 24 hour period of time. And we know the order of events was different. For example, the fossil record shows that birds evolved much later than animal life, not before.

Imagine this:

Imagine that you were shown a high-speed time lapse of the first 14 billion years in 8-hour segments over the course of a week from the point of view of a man standing on the surface of the earth.

If you can imagine that, it would look just like the Genesis story.

 

[Meowzltov]

Imagine this:

Imagine that you were shown a high-speed time lapse of the first 14 billion years in 8-hour segments over the course of a week from the point of view of a man standing on the surface of the earth.

If you can imagine that, it would look just like the Genesis story.

No. It wouldn't look anything like the Genesis story. If God began creating on the first day, the Earth wouldn't even be created until day six. Life wouldn't exist until 3:00 in the afternoon. Mankind wouldn't be created until about 10 minutes before sunset. Actually that's being generous.

Then there are the problems with order. Land came before water. You can't have light without stars; stars come first. And animals come before birds.

 

[RDKirk]

No. It wouldn't look anything like the Genesis story. If God began creating on the first day, the Earth wouldn't even be created until day six. Life wouldn't exist until 3:00 in the afternoon. Mankind wouldn't be created until about 10 minutes before sunset. Actually that's being generous.

Then there are the problems with order. Land came before water. You can't have light without stars; stars come first. And animals come before birds.

I asked you to imagine it, but you're not doing that, you're merely arguing the proposition.

I also start with the presumption that what we have discovered of the origins of the universe and the earth are substantially true.

I also start with the presumption that both the Genesis account is honest. I use the word "honest" carefully. I've known human reporting that was "honest" and yet not what I'd call "accurate in detail." How would someone who knew nothing about anatomy describe a brain surgery that he'd watched on a video?

If the former is true, how might the latter be honest?

First, I said 8-hour increments over 7 days. Actually, it would be six days--rather like a six-part television miniseries with the breaks set as Genesis sets them.

So one night a Bronze Age man lies down and God gives him a dream. The man dreams that he is where he is: Lying at point in space that is (will be) Ur of the Chaldees.

At first he sees nothing. He would not see the actual Big Bang from that viewpoint--he has no telescope, so he'd have no view of the first 12 billion years or so. The first thing he'd see would be light, the light of the newly glowing Sol. It's an amorphous light because at that point in time Earth is still covered by heavy gases. Because the earth is rotating, he would see the period of light alternates the period of darkness. And so God brings the first night of the dream to and end with morning.

The second night, the man lies down again in the evening. In this second dream, he sees the gaseous atmosphere slowly clearing so that the man--from his vantage point of what will be Ur of the Chaldees--sees a separation of overhead cloud cover and the ground. God chooses to end the second night's dream at that point, and the man wakes up again. His dream has gone from evening to morning, and he's seen a second part of the creation.

The third evening, the man dreams again. In this dream, the land of the earth is shifting, moving. What we would call "Pangea" is spreading out and what he would see is the opening of what we would call the Persian Gulf.

Take a look at this time lapse of a growing plant. This is what the Bronze Age man would see happening around him, but at an even much greater speed. Where he saw desolation, there would suddenly be an instantaneous springing of plant life from seemingly nothing.

And with the morning, God would end the third night's dream.

The man lies down on the evening of the fourth night. Remember that he's only seeing what he can see with his own eyes--he has no Superman telescopic or microscopic vision. He's not at the bottom of the ocean or orbiting out in space, he's at Ur of the Chaldees. In this night's dream, the atsmosphere has cleared enough that the disks of Sol and Luna are now clearly apparent as well as five planets and the brighter stars. And with that, God brings the fourth night of dream to a close in the morning.

So on this fifth night, the evening dream begins with the man seeing sudden activity in the waters of the Persian Gulf, aquatic life leaping above the waves. It's been evolving there over the course of time, but because he's on land he hasn't seen it until it's evolved enough to break the surface. Which kind of life he sees first is dependent on where he is. He is likely to see a bird soaring overhead before he sees a lizard crawl toward him.

Over the course of the fifth and sixth nights of dreams, the man is given dreams of the evolution of life on the planet, culminating with explosion of man--who would be apparent by his tool-making ability and appearing in this time-lapse from nothing.

The sixth night of dreams would end that morning, and there would be no dream of creation on the seventh night. The Bronze Age man is left to interpret what he has seen to others.

 

[JacksBratt]

No. It wouldn't look anything like the Genesis story. If God began creating on the first day, the Earth wouldn't even be created until day six. Life wouldn't exist until 3:00 in the afternoon. Mankind wouldn't be created until about 10 minutes before sunset. Actually that's being generous.

Then there are the problems with order. Land came before water. You can't have light without stars; stars come first. And animals come before birds.

You assume that God needs a planetary body in order to have a light source. This is not true. God can have light without any tangible source, He is God.

Land before water, water before land......these are now problems for God........... I think not.

Animals before birds, birds before animals.....again.....a problem for God? Hardly..

The Genesis account, as written is perfectly possible and perfectly within the abilities of an all powerful God.

The only reason man has any trouble with it is that man has to fit everything in his understanding.

I take it this way.............God is capable to do it as He said..........therefore He did it as He said.

Anything that man comes up with to create an issue with this...........is just the thinking of men... and totally null and void to the abilities of God.

 

[Speedwell]

Y

The Genesis account, as written is perfectly possible and perfectly within the abilities of an all powerful God.

A point which no one here is contesting.

I take it this way.............God is capable to do it as He said..........therefore He did it as He said.

He didn't "say" except in rare instances where His actual words were quoted. For the most part, He inspired human authors.

 

[Aman777]

That's what it is. A myth is any story, factual or not, which deals with the early history of a people or explainins some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. We can argue whether it is 100% accurate literal history or not, but it's a myth either way.

Genesis is NOT a myth no matter what any man says, since it AGREES in every way, IF you have the proper interpretation, with EVERY discovery of Science and History. NO Myth does that including the denomination views of mere mortal men who study the traditions of ancient superstitious mortals. That's the definition of religion which is a belief, or blind Faith is something which does NOT agree with the discoveries of mankind. Christianity AGREES with ALL of God's Truth. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

There is nothing Christian about the Big Bang except the universe had a beginning. It's still based on the principle of continuity which is not scriptural.
I know Christian tries to claim God is behind the Big Bang but with God you don't need the Big Bang.

I agree and that makes sense IF you don't notice that the FIRST Day Gen 1:1 was long BEFORE the beginning of our Universe/Heaven, which was on the THIRD Day. Gen 2:4 The beginning of the FIRST Heaven was on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:8 God's Truth shows that our Cosmos is the second of three Heavens God made.

The first world, the world that then was, was totally destroyed in the flood. 2Pet3:6
The heavens and Earth which are now are scheduled to be burned. 2Pet3:7
The THIRD Heaven of ll Cor 12:2 and Rev 21:1 is FUTURE to 2017.

Can you see the difference between Adam's world and the world of today?