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Free Will and Evil

quatona

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Show me how God can create a world with free beings who do not ever choose evil please?

Oh wait you can't....
Sure I can.

Apart from that, this wasn´t what even what the OP postulated. E.g. people could choose "evil" all they want - but God could prevent them from exerting their choices.

Which is why this objection is absurd. You assumed "God can do anything that is possible", but you didn't show that it is possible for him to create such a world and you can't. It may be not be possible for God to create a world where free human beings do not choose evil and that is sufficient enough to answer your objection.
1. No, it isn´t - since you just added a qualifier, hoping we wouldn´t notice it.
2. But even without that: explain why humans who do not act "evil" are not humans. IOW: I´m wondering what definition of "human" you are working from in order to make the implausible plausible.

Maybe God could create a world for beings other than humans who do not choose evil, but that would not be human beings.
But - funny definitions of "human" notwithstanding - that would exactly match the postulation in the OP.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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So you don´t accept the thelogical "freewill" defense?

I don't even know if I am a Christian by the standards of today. So I really have no idea what the theological consensus is about freewill.

But, I do know God never said we had free will. On the contrary; He explicitly states that He has set in motion events beyond our control - whether it is prophecy, Providence or duty. Our "will" naturally conflicts with His: whose will is more powerful?

I am vehemently against the idea that we have free will. It makes no sense at all IF we entertain the deity known as The Most High God. Clearly "THE most High God" has will that supercedes all other will, and maintains over them.
 
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ExodusMe

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Apart from that, this wasn´t what even what the OP postulated. E.g. people could choose "evil" all they want - but God could prevent them from exerting their choices.
God cannot decide the actions of free creatures. A condition of being 'free' is deciding you own actions. That would be logically incoherent.

1. No, it isn´t - since you just added a qualifier, hoping we wouldn´t notice it.
2. But even without that: explain why humans who do not act "evil" are not humans. IOW: I´m wondering what definition of "human" you are working from in order to make the implausible plausible.

But - funny definitions of "human" notwithstanding - that would exactly match the postulation in the OP.
I was hoping you would notice. If you are going to create a being that cannot choose evil, then we are no longer talking about human beings (as understood by humanity...)...
 
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zippy2006

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Okay, so only LFW applies to the standard reply, and not NLFW.

And it still isn't quite clear, is NLFW still FW or not? And if it is FW, then is LFW better than NLFW somehow?

I have no idea what NLFW is. It's like talking about black and non-black. Non-black isn't a color, it is every color and every thing that isn't black.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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The only entities that have total free will are perfect creatures. And, because they are perfect, they consequentially and willfully abdicate 100% of their free will to the Most High, so they don't have free will.

That is the answer to the paradox. Free will exists, but those entities that actually have free will are perfect, and give it up freely to the Most High. The imperfect entities that believe they have free will are deluded.

God is not going to give someone He is at enmity with, or someone who sins against Him, free will.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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I was hoping you would notice. If you are going to create a being that cannot choose evil, then we are no longer talking about human beings (as understood by humanity...)...

Based on your definition of "human being".

And it's not necessarily "cannot" choose evil, it could logically be "does not" choose evil.

Am I less of a human being because there's several terrible things that I will never choose to do?
 
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ExodusMe

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Based on your definition of "human being".

And it's not necessarily "cannot" choose evil, it could logically be "does not" choose evil.

Am I less of a human being because there's several terrible things that I will never choose to do?
yeah good point. I made an error there between cannot/does not.
so the list of choices are

1) Free will is removed and humanity cannot choose evil
2) Humans are created so they do not choose evil

It sounds like #2 is where the OP was headed and this can be avoided by proposing that God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil.

In this case, my personal inclination is that God has allowed the fall of humanity because in his infinite wisdom God determined this would allow as many free creatures as possible to come into relationship with himself. I would think of it as an exponential curve of # of free creatures to accept Christ on the y-axis and the some type of scale based on the freedom allowed to the creature on the x-axis. More freedom - more persons to redeem and experience the divine glory of his son.
 
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Chriliman

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I don't even know if I am a Christian by the standards of today. So I really have no idea what the theological consensus is about freewill.

But, I do know God never said we had free will. On the contrary; He explicitly states that He has set in motion events beyond our control - whether it is prophecy, Providence or duty. Our "will" naturally conflicts with His: whose will is more powerful?

I am vehemently against the idea that we have free will. It makes no sense at all IF we entertain the deity known as The Most High God. Clearly "THE most High God" has will that supercedes all other will, and maintains over them.

Good point, which is how we can define evil as anything that goes against God's will. Eventually, all evil and death will lose it's power over creation because God's will, will prevail.
 
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Chriliman

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God is not going to give someone He is at enmity with, or someone who sins against Him, free will.

I'm not sure this makes sense because we have to have some ability to separate ourselves from God in order to sin against him. That ability is what God gives us to either obey him or not, which is what many refer to as free will or ability to follow our own desires whether those desires are sinful or not.
 
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quatona

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God cannot decide the actions of free creatures. A condition of being 'free' is deciding you own actions. That would be logically incoherent.
..but he demands us to limit this freedom of others on his behalf? How odd.


I was hoping you would notice. If you are going to create a being that cannot choose evil, then we are no longer talking about human beings (as understood by humanity...)...
Your hope was mistaken.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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I'm not sure this makes sense because we have to have some ability to separate ourselves from God in order to sin against him. That ability is what God gives us to either obey him or not, which is what many refer to as free will or ability to follow our own desires whether those desires are sinful or not.

We have free choice, not free will. Choose this day whom you will serve; not "will your reality to the appropriate conditions for the appropriate entity for which you want to follow." Duality is a big player in this thinking.

For example, if someone is pointing a gun to your head and forces you to choose between killing your parents, or your children, what would you choose? In this case, itnwould be safe tk say it isnt your will to have your family, or you in this type of situation. That was determined by parameters outside of you. What you do have power over is your choice: do you let your parents die, or your child?

And in culture, this is actually an example of how we don't understand the power of choice - how that is enough to be an independent agent of choice.

Most people would labor on who they would kill: parent or child. They forget that there is a third choice: to be shot in the head.

The same can be said about other things that people believe are dualities - like voting. You don't have the power to will the candidate you want to be president to be president. But, you have a choice given your circumstances. People still go with duality and choose lesser of two evils, when there is yet again a third option: abstain.

We don't have the power of will to create our own destiny; that is a capitalist/Western type of thinking that sets people up for failure. We have the power to choose how we respond and react to stimuli, situations and scenarios.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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2) Humans are created so they do not choose evil

It sounds like #2 is where the OP was headed and this can be avoided by proposing that God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil.

It can be avoided if you accept your proposal. I don't have any reason to believe your proposal is sufficient to explain away the problem.

In this case, my personal inclination is that God has allowed the fall of humanity because in his infinite wisdom God determined this would allow as many free creatures as possible to come into relationship with himself. I would think of it as an exponential curve of # of free creatures to accept Christ on the y-axis and the some type of scale based on the freedom allowed to the creature on the x-axis. More freedom - more persons to redeem and experience the divine glory of his son.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at, but I'm not seeing this as an answer.

Redemption isn't necessary if we were created without any desire to sin. In addition, if we were all made aware of a god's existence, we would all come into a relationship with this god without any prompting.
 
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Chriliman

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We have free choice, not free will. Choose this day whom you will serve; not "will your reality to the appropriate conditions for the appropriate entity for which you want to follow." Duality is a big player in this thinking.

For example, if someone is pointing a gun to your head and forces you to choose between killing your parents, or your children, what would you choose? In this case, itnwould be safe tk say it isnt your will to have your family, or you in this type of situation. That was determined by parameters outside of you. What you do have power over is your choice: do you let your parents die, or your child?

And in culture, this is actually an example of how we don't understand the power of choice - how that is enough to be an independent agent of choice.

Most people would labor on who they would kill: parent or child. They forget that there is a third choice: to be shot in the head.

The same can be said about other things that people believe are dualities - like voting. You don't have the power to will the candidate you want to be president to be president. But, you have a choice given your circumstances. People still go with duality and choose lesser of two evils, when there is yet again a third option: abstain.

We don't have the power of will to create our own destiny; that is a capitalist/Western type of thinking that sets people up for failure. We have the power to choose how we respond and react to stimuli, situations and scenarios.

Ok, I view free will and the freedom to choose as pretty much synonymous. God has free will to do as he pleases, but he will only choose to do what is good for His creation. It is good of God to give His creation the ability to choose as they will. This way he may lovingly influence without taking direct control of another's will.

Ultimately, I'd argue that it wouldn't be fair or loving of God to not give us free will(freedom to choose as we will) since this is what He has, after all.

Anyhow, I feel this may be a semantics issue anyway.
 
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Moral Orel

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I have no idea what NLFW is. It's like talking about black and non-black. Non-black isn't a color, it is every color and every thing that isn't black.
??? Let me rephrase then. If I am given the choice between chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream, and I adore chocolate, and vanilla makes me vomit, when I choose the chocolate, did I have FW or were my actions decided for me based on my extreme preferences? I would still be physically capable of saying, "Vanilla please!" and then sticking a spoon in, and scooping a big gulp up to my mouth, I just wouldn't ever choose to based on my preferences. Does this count as a free choice or not?
 
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Moral Orel

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Apart from that, this wasn´t what even what the OP postulated. E.g. people could choose "evil" all they want - but God could prevent them from exerting their choices.
That's not what I'm postulating. I'm talking about not choosing in the first place. I'm not talking about God stepping in and stopping us from following through with a choice.
I was hoping you would notice. If you are going to create a being that cannot choose evil, then we are no longer talking about human beings
I didn't use the term "human" because I didn't want to limit it to humans. There's no reason for Satan to have sinned in the first place either, in my opinion. So I'm using the term "beings" to encompass all things, not just humans, not just angels, but anything.
 
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quatona

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That's not what I'm postulating. I'm talking about not choosing in the first place. I'm not talking about God stepping in and stopping us from following through with a choice.
Thanks for clarifying (I think this couldn´t be told from the OP). I was just mentioning one possibility based on the information given.
 
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bling

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Having the thought of evil does not mean evil will result. So there is no need to remove all thought of evil to remove the possibility of evil existing.
Selfish thoughts are sinful and I would say evil even if they are just keeping us from having good thoughts.
 
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Moral Orel

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Selfish thoughts are sinful and I would say evil even if they are just keeping us from having good thoughts.
Well, there's thinking about doing evil, and then there's thinking about evil that can exist. I can think about and conceptualize murder just for the sake of understanding what it is and what the consequences are, yet never desire to kill anyone.

Selfish thoughts would be along the lines of the former where you think to yourself say, "I should keep all this stuff to myself...". If the thought is, "I shouldn't be selfish" then it's a good thought, but it's a thought of evil.
 
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bling

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Well, there's thinking about doing evil, and then there's thinking about evil that can exist. I can think about and conceptualize murder just for the sake of understanding what it is and what the consequences are, yet never desire to kill anyone.

Selfish thoughts would be along the lines of the former where you think to yourself say, "I should keep all this stuff to myself...". If the thought is, "I shouldn't be selfish" then it's a good thought, but it's a thought of evil.

Let’s get back to the original question because I agree with most of what you are saying.

You stated: “God can create a world with free will beings that won't ever have evil.”

The question should be why did God not create a world where beings do not do evil and/or sin?

While here on earth humans have an earthly objective and that objective is not to “not to ever sin”.

Sin actually has purpose for the nonbeliever to help him/her in possibly fulfilling their earthly objective.

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.


The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.
 
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