Men should wear shirts at the beach

[blackribbon]

but this isn't solely about lust. There's more to modesty than lust prevention. If it were all about lust, really ugly people wouldn't need to cover up as well.

What is it about then? What skin is required to be covered for a person to be considered "modest"? I think a beach intended for swimming is a place where too much clothing is dangerous because it can get in your way while swimming and weighs a person down. I think if someone is concerned about modesty on the beach, they should consider same sex beaches, private beaches, or avoid beaches completely. In reality, even the most modest swimwear isn't really modest...

 

[Paidiske]

Well, you could always try the burkini... but no doubt someone would find something to criticise it for!

 

[Near]

What is it about then? What skin is required to be covered for a person to be considered "modest"? I think a beach intended for swimming is a place where too much clothing is dangerous because it can get in your way while swimming and weighs a person down. I think if someone is concerned about modesty on the beach, they should consider same sex beaches, private beaches, or avoid beaches completely. In reality, even the most modest swimwear isn't really modest...

it's something to think about and many people will have different answers. What we can do is make suggestions and consider how we ought to dress ourselves as to appear honorable, rather than debased.
I know what beaches are for, and I'm aware of the situation, but that isn't what I'm getting at. When it comes down to it, I'm speaking to a small minority and trying to generate an awareness of a concept which I think should be shared. It's up to the individual to decide what to do.

 

[Near]

View attachment 196426

Well, you could always try the burkini... but no doubt someone would find something to criticise it for!

i think burkini's are good. those who criticize people for wearing them are out of line. if a woman wants to wear one, I think she's showing herself to be more honorable, than a women who wears a bikini.

 

[Paidiske]

i think burkini's are good. those who criticize people for wearing them are out of line. if a woman wants to wear one, I think she's showing herself to be more honorable, than a women who wears a bikini.

I think this is why some people (including me) are a bit uncomfortable with the way you're posting. Say burkinis are good, fine. Say you prefer them to bikinis, fine. But why make a value judgement about the women who wear either? Why assume that one woman has higher principles than the other, or is more worthy of honour than the other? You can't judge the heart of the woman in the bikini (or, for that matter, the woman in the burkini), so why bring personal judgement into it?

 

[blackribbon]

Is a burkini really that more modest than a decent well fitting bathing suit (not talking string bikini stuff)?...no skin isn't shown but they are still body forming and you can see the shape of a female in one. It is really bare skin that makes something immodest?

And I really don't see what is immodest about a man not wearing a t-shirt with his swim trunks.

 

[blackribbon]

This burkini is actually kind of see-thru while the swimsuit covers just fine.

 

[Near]

I think this is why some people (including me) are a bit uncomfortable with the way you're posting. Say burkinis are good, fine. Say you prefer them to bikinis, fine. But why make a value judgement about the women who wear either? Why assume that one woman has higher principles than the other, or is more worthy of honour than the other? You can't judge the heart of the woman in the bikini (or, for that matter, the woman in the burkini), so why bring personal judgement into it?

Inference.
First, the fact is not everyone is equal. Some have higher standards and some have lower standards.
Perhaps I could be wrong about a particular woman who may be wearing a burkini, maybe a particular women isn't all that great after all. It just seems to be the case that a person who makes an attempt to appear more clothed rather than less clothed is making an attempt to appear more modest and from that I can infer that such a person may be more honorable. So, a person who wears only a speedo seems to be less honorable than one who wears clothes.
When it comes to shame and honor, different people can have different degrees of them. I think it may be that fact that people have trouble acknowledging since many live in a culture of non-judgment.

 

[Near]

This burkini is actually kind of see-thru while the swimsuit covers just fine.

Really? I didn't see through anything.
Anyways, I think I can speak for myself, and a few other men who agree with me. We'll wear shirts at the beach, pool, or lake. We think it's more modest, and better than lacking a shirt.
If any men don't want to wear shirts, it seems that they have the freedom to do what they want in that area.

 

[blackribbon]

Her naval is very obvious...and so are other parts of her anatomy....

As for speedos...both my kids had them and wore them because they were the swim team uniform. My son's came to his knees. They aren't just for "freaks".

And I see that this is just a thread trying to force your version of modesty on others. You think all men should wear t-shirts because you feel uncomfortable bearing your upper body. A t-shirt is not "proper swim attire" and isn't considered very hygienic in a pool. It also would make a person harder to rescue if they were in trouble because you would get a handful of wet stretched out material (and potentially get yourself tangled in it) and it would make it hard to get a good grip on a drowning person themself.

What is it exactly about skin bothers you so much?

 

[Paidiske]

When it comes to shame and honor, different people can have different degrees of them. I think it may be that fact that people have trouble acknowledging since many live in a culture of non-judgment.

Honour and shame are social constructs; they are reflections of shared value systems, and rewarding or punishing people for their level of compliance.

I agree that this exists, but I think it is a bad thing, not a good thing, and something we ought to strive to overcome.

 

[blackribbon]

here is michael phelps in a speedo...

It is an ugly suit...not sure about the modesty level because although it covers a lot of skin, it is literally skin tight

 

[PeachieKeen]

Inference.
First, the fact is not everyone is equal. Some have higher standards and some have lower standards.
Perhaps I could be wrong about a particular woman who may be wearing a burkini, maybe a particular women isn't all that great after all. It just seems to be the case that a person who makes an attempt to appear more clothed rather than less clothed is making an attempt to appear more modest and from that I can infer that such a person may be more honorable. So, a person who wears only a speedo seems to be less honorable than one who wears clothes.
When it comes to shame and honor, different people can have different degrees of them. I think it may be that fact that people have trouble acknowledging since many live in a culture of non-judgment.

I think it's equally likely to infer that one who chooses to wear a full coverage outfit to the pool is insecure about his/her body and that is the motive for coverage.

Personally I wear bikinis- they are far more comfortable, you don't end up with a weird pale belly and tan arms/legs, it's easier to use often less than sanitary public restrooms, its much easier than finding a suit that fits my long torso without riding up my bottom and creating a far less modest situation, and I love the feeling of water on my skin. My friends who opt to wear full coverage suits around me have on multiple occasions remarked they wish they had the confidence to wear a bikini as they are far more practical.

The human body is not shameful- the sins we commit when viewing it are. I am of the opinion that as long as I'm not writhing around in some contrived attempt to present myself as a sexual creature, the responsibility to not lust after me as one falls on the beholder- whether I'm wearing a bikini or a floor length dress.

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't believe the bible teaches everything. Sometimes you just have to go off of theory and hypothesis, reflection, prayer, etc.
There isn't a verse for everything, and just because there isn't a verse for something in particular, doesn't mean we can't give good reasons for thinking a certain thing is the case.

Theory and hypothesis?

 

[Near]

And I see that this is just a thread trying to force your version of modesty on others. You think all men should wear t-shirts because you feel uncomfortable bearing your upper body.

That seems like a put down. I don't think you should assume that about me.

As I said before, if any man wants to wear no shirt, they have the freedom to do so, but it wasn't always the case that men didn't have to wear a shirt, or covering over their upper body.

Anyways, I think I can speak for myself, and a few other men who agree with me. We'll wear shirts at the beach, pool, or lake. We think it's more modest, and better than lacking a shirt.
If any men don't want to wear shirts, it seems that they have the freedom to do what they want in that area.

A t-shirt is not "proper swim attire" and isn't considered very hygienic in a pool. It also would make a person harder to rescue if they were in trouble because you would get a handful of wet stretched out material (and potentially get yourself tangled in it) and it would make it hard to get a good grip on a drowning person themself.
What is it exactly about skin bothers you so much?

I don't think what you said is relevant to modesty.
As for what personally bothers me, I don't think that's relevant either.
While you're posting a few pictures trying to make a point, I could provide photos of women and men, dressed immodestly in swim apparel, but I don't want to do that for obvious reasons.
What's considered proper swim attire is a social construct, and I think it's best for a christian to apply modesty anywhere including a beach, so if that means wearing more clothing, or designing one's own apparel to appear more modest, so be it. Taking a step back from cultural norms and looking at things from a perspective that aims to strive for modesty is what Christians should do. Now, I'm sorry if anyone thinks that I'm choke-holding anyone trying to force my views and religion down their throats, but I think I'm allowed to speak my view on the matter.

 

[Near]

Theory and hypothesis?

yes

 

[Near]

Honour and shame are social constructs; they are reflections of shared value systems, and rewarding or punishing people for their level of compliance.

I agree that this exists, but I think it is a bad thing, not a good thing, and something we ought to strive to overcome.

Concepts of honor, and shame are in the bible. So are rewards and punishments. I think there are reasons for why people ought to be ashamed of themselves, and that means people should be ashamed of themselves for dressing immodestly.

 

[Near]

I think it's equally likely to infer that one who chooses to wear a full coverage outfit to the pool is insecure about his/her body and that is the motive for coverage.

Perhaps, but it seems that the burkini is at least an attempt to go against the norm of less clothing at the beach, and a proclamation that modesty should be applied there as well.
Forget the burkini, the point I want to get across is that the intent to appear more modest is better than the intent to appear attractive.

Personally I wear bikinis- they are far more comfortable, you don't end up with a weird pale belly and tan arms/legs, it's easier to use often less than sanitary public restrooms, its much easier than finding a suit that fits my long torso without riding up my bottom and creating a far less modest situation, and I love the feeling of water on my skin. My friends who opt to wear full coverage suits around me have on multiple occasions remarked they wish they had the confidence to wear a bikini as they are far more practical.

Practicality and personal preference when it comes to tans, and the experience of water on the skin should not come before modesty. I don't think modesty should be sacrificed for a nice beach experience. So maybe the whole concept of going to the beach or pool should be rethought, keeping in mind modesty, because it seems that modesty is sacrificed for the sake of convenience, and pleasure.
Anyways, that probably sounds like a radical view, and you're free to do what you want in your life.

The human body is not shameful- the sins we commit when viewing it are. I am of the opinion that as long as I'm not writhing around in some contrived attempt to present myself as a sexual creature, the responsibility to not lust after me as one falls on the beholder- whether I'm wearing a bikini or a floor length dress.

The human body itself is not shameful, but I think it's shameful to dress immodestly. It's either unwise, or foolish. Unwise perhaps because a person may be used to the worldly norms presented to them in which people barely wear anything at the beach, but it could be foolish if a person knows that they're exposing their bodies knowing that people will be looking with lust. However the aspect of lust is only part of it. Clothing is important, it's like the crown of a king, and God put it in our hearts to appear clothed, and it's just right to be fully clothed rather than not clothed enough, so I think being fully clothed is important in all public places.

 

[blackribbon]

Reality is that I doubt that Jesus went to the beach and hung out in swim attire....shirt or no shirt There isn't a Biblical model for recreational time...and real modesty would require single sex beaches. I agree that most bathing suits worn by women are too skimpy but being as this is a Christian forum, I don't think that discussing what we should or shouldn't wear on the beach is a new concept to anyone here. Maybe I am wrong but since the bikini was introduced, I have heard about "appropriate" swimwear my entire life. I don't see the need for men to cover up because modesty is related to sexual thoughts and women really aren't as prone to lusting over visual images as men...it is just a fact of nature. I am much more likely to notice and focus on some cute little kid than a good looking man...

What is fully clothed is really a cultural issue. We definitely don't wear the same styles or clothing that Jesus and his followers wore or are found anywhere in the Bible.

Yes, you are entitled to say what your opinions are but I think you are preaching to the choir...and for those that disagree, it isn't a new concept. Our church even has a dress code for swimming events.

 

[Paidiske]

Concepts of honor, and shame are in the bible. So are rewards and punishments. I think there are reasons for why people ought to be ashamed of themselves, and that means people should be ashamed of themselves for dressing immodestly.

Just because something is in the Bible, doesn't mean it's good. Ancient near eastern societies were honour/shame cultures, and the Bible reflects that, but we have a choice about whether or not to replicate that.

Here's a longer explanation of what I mean: Shame into praise