Men should wear shirts at the beach

[Near]

I am being trolled aren't I...

 

[Near]

forget this thread...

 

[Sammy-San]

forget this thread...

You aren't giving bibical reasons as to what makes something modest.

 

[Near]

What makes it not immodest? Shoulders and arms still reveal dignity?

What about partial immodest? I would argue a one piece swimsuit is partially immodest.

i dont know for sure about the first part, but you have a point about the later.
Honestly, I am thinking im being trolled here, so even if you're serious, the pace of the questions and brevity of them as well as the lack of consideration of what I've really been saying... it all leads me to chose to leave the "conversation"... good day.

 

[Near]

You aren't giving bibical reasons as to what makes something modest.

well, next time say that.

 

[Sammy-San]

well, next time say that.

Do you think the bible defines modesty? I read Hebrew words have specific meanings of modesty.

 

[Near]

Do you think the bible defines modesty? I read Hebrew words have specific meanings of modesty.

well, maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it is immodest to not cover the shoulders.
I'm not trying to go as far as to prove anything but rather to bring awareness to what I believe is immodest. I'm unaware of hebrew words having specific meanings for modesty, "this hebrew word means the shoulders should be covered" etc...

also instead of asking questions and questions seemingly going in circles, just get to the point or you'll just end up wasting people's time.

 

[Sammy-San]

well, maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it is immodest to not cover the shoulders.
I'm not trying to go as far as to prove anything but rather to bring awareness to what I believe is immodest. I'm unaware of hebrew words having specific meanings for modesty, "this hebrew word means the shoulders should be covered" etc...

also instead of asking questions and questions seemingly going in circles, just get to the point or you'll just end up wasting people's time.

Here are some opinions on the issue-rather than questions.

Modesty: Biblical Investigation, Contemporary Application

It is improper and sinful for Christians to dress immodestly in any public setting. Public immodesty displaces positive Christian influence and promotes lust, and is, therefore, sinful. Added to the former list, short-shorts, halter or tube tops, sheer blouses, swimsuits, tank-tops and other revealing or provocative clothing should not be worn publicly by Christians. The beach or a swimming pool does not lessen the need for Christians to dress modestly.

Modesty – How, What, and Why? (Part One)

I think these are good standards for anyone to keep to, but they still leave room for some pretty immodest clothing. In the absence of any specific verse detailing exactly what to wear, I turn to the Jewish definition for modesty in clothing. Judaism is, after all, where Christianity comes from; and Paul, being a Jew himself, probably had these standards in mind when he was writing. According to the Jewish standards of modesty (to my understanding), one’s shoulders, collarbone, upper arms (to the elbow), torso and thighs (to the knees) should be covered. It’s also interesting that the Bible seems to consider, in a number of places, that “nakedness” and “nudity” are two different things. “Nudity” the complete absence of any clothing at all. “Nakedness”, on the other hand, is when any of the abovementioned body parts are showing, even if one isn’t entirely nude.

 

[Near]

Here are some opinions on the issue-rather than questions.

Modesty: Biblical Investigation, Contemporary Application



Modesty – How, What, and Why? (Part One)

I think I agree on covering up the areas of the body that would likely result in lust, but I disagree on appealing to Jewish standards. Judaism as it is, is not where Christianity came from. So appealing to Judaism is devoid of significance. There's also the question as to which Judaism is being appealed to, rabbinical Judaism? From those who deny Christ, like the pharisees.

I think we should just keep in mind the point of modesty and from there build up on ideas of what is modest and aim for that. I don't think we can ever arrive at all of the answers regarding modesty, but we can think about others and ourselves, and just pray to God and ask what is immodest, or ask others what would offend them, and so on, being considerate of what people consider modest and in love applying certain practices, just like Paul did when he said, "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. "
But instead of meat, it would be a lack of modesty to a certain degree.
I don't have too much interest in debating the core of this all and writing anything in stone here.

 

[Sammy-San]

I think I agree on covering up the areas of the body that would likely result in lust, but I disagree on appealing to Jewish standards. Judaism as it is, is not where Christianity came from. So appealing to Judaism is devoid of significance. There's also the question as to which Judaism is being appealed to, rabbinical Judaism? From those who deny Christ, like the pharisees.

I think we should just keep in mind the point of modesty and from there build up on ideas of what is modest and aim for that. I don't think we can ever arrive at all of the answers regarding modesty, but we can think about others and ourselves, and just pray to God and ask what is immodest, or ask others what would offend them, and so on, being considerate of what people consider modest and in love applying certain practices, just like Paul did when he said, "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. "
But instead of meat, it would be a lack of modesty to a certain degree.
I don't have too much interest in debating the core of this all and writing anything in stone here.

Isn't Christianity the gentile expression of new covenant judaism though?

Isn't that what Paul was referring to when he meant dressing modesty?

 

[Sammy-San]

Because, kissing is just a physical act, and so is hugging. No type of physical act is love itself. Perhaps an act can be done out of love, but those acts themselves are not love themselves.

1 Cor 13: 4-7
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love deals with benevolence, good-will, and care towards others.
Sexual desire, is not love at all, nor is it a form of love. There's no reason to think, biblically speaking, that kissing or hugging are love.

I can prove it by demonstrating that something such as kissing or hugging can be done without love.
One: kissing between two straight men who are acting.
Two: Hugging between two people who boxing.
If hugging or kissing can be done without love, then logically, those acts on their own are something apart from love itself.

I think I've explained myself clearly, but I'm wondering why you'd think mere physical acts such as hugging or kissing are love.

What does base mean in that context?

 

[Sammy-San]

I think you're misunderstanding.
I don't expect the world's customs to change. I'm trying to speak to christian men, pointing out that we should strive to appear modest, and I believe that includes wearing shirts at the beach.

Can we agree it isn't comparable to women doing the same?

 

[Sammy-San]

I think I agree on covering up the areas of the body that would likely result in lust, but I disagree on appealing to Jewish standards. Judaism as it is, is not where Christianity came from. So appealing to Judaism is devoid of significance. There's also the question as to which Judaism is being appealed to, rabbinical Judaism? From those who deny Christ, like the pharisees.

I think we should just keep in mind the point of modesty and from there build up on ideas of what is modest and aim for that. I don't think we can ever arrive at all of the answers regarding modesty, but we can think about others and ourselves, and just pray to God and ask what is immodest, or ask others what would offend them, and so on, being considerate of what people consider modest and in love applying certain practices, just like Paul did when he said, "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. "
But instead of meat, it would be a lack of modesty to a certain degree.
I don't have too much interest in debating the core of this all and writing anything in stone here.

Modest Apparel

As an additional precaution, the priest's garments included short trousers that went from the waist to the thighs to cover their nakedness (Exodus 28:42-43). For a woman, the exposure of her breasts or her groin region would be considered nakedness (Ezekiel 16:7).

 

[Near]

Isn't Christianity the gentile expression of new covenant judaism though?

Isn't that what Paul was referring to when he meant dressing modesty?

i think you're failing to recognize the difference between naked and immodest. So, I won't even go any further on that, because if you took the time to re-read what I wrote, you'd see my point, and I think I'd be wasting my time re-typing the same thing, since i think I already gave a good comprehensive answer.

As for the question you've given me here, Christianity is not derived from modern day judaism, or the Talmud, or the Pharisees with their tradition of men.

if you want to discuss that, not on this thread.

 

[Near]

What does base mean in that context?

Can we agree it isn't comparable to women doing the same?

Both questions are not relevant to the thread.

 

[JohnLuna]

That isn't nudity. Women without tops is nudity.

Exactly!

 

[Sammy-San]

Exactly!

People in other threads argue, "where does the bible say it is nudity"?

 

[Near]

People in other threads argue, "where does the bible say it is nudity"?

I don't believe the bible teaches everything. Sometimes you just have to go off of theory and hypothesis, reflection, prayer, etc.
There isn't a verse for everything, and just because there isn't a verse for something in particular, doesn't mean we can't give good reasons for thinking a certain thing is the case.

 

[blackribbon]

Maybe the sin is going to the beach and being around people whom you believe are not modestly dressed if you feel strongly about this. This is a recreational activity and not a necessity in life.

I don't feel convicted at the beach. I don't look lustfully at other bodies and my body is as covered up as I feel is appropriate for my shape and the occasion. As for men going shirtless, I think the real point is that most women don't have lust problems around shirtless men but the same can't be said for the opposite situation.

 

[Near]

Maybe the sin is going to the beach and being around people whom you believe are not modestly dressed if you feel strongly about this. This is a recreational activity and not a necessity in life.

I don't feel convicted at the beach. I don't look lustfully at other bodies and my body is as covered up as I feel is appropriate for my shape and the occasion. As for men going shirtless, I think the real point is that most women don't have lust problems around shirtless men but the same can't be said for the opposite situation.

but this isn't solely about lust. There's more to modesty than lust prevention. If it were all about lust, really ugly people wouldn't need to cover up as well.