God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility

DarthNeo

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That is fine. Actually, I was an Arminian 40 years ago. Very simply, the part I could not accept was the fact that I perceived my choice as a "work" no matter how I sliced it and therefore had room to boast. For if my choice was the definitive factor of saving me over someone else, then my choice was a work of some kind because I myself made said choice. I struggled with this for years until I finally came to the end of myself and confessed to God that even my choice was not an acceptable work to God because there was nothing good in me.

That is when I finally heard the doctrines of grace and it all made sense.

It's not work, it is an ACT OF FAITH. Imagined you owed LOTS of money to someone and someone said, here I am willing to pay your debt for you in full. You could be proud and say, no thanks, I will handle it or you could humbly accept the gift given to you. Accepting what someone gives you is NOT a work...
 
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Late Apex

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It's not work, it is an ACT OF FAITH. Imagined you owed LOTS of money to someone and someone said, here I am willing to pay your debt for you in full. You could be proud and say, no thanks, I will handle it or you could humbly accept the gift given to you. Accepting what someone gives you is NOT a work...

BUT, not all have faith. Faith is the gift of God.
 
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DarthNeo

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BUT, not all have faith. Faith is the gift of God.

It depends on where you put the emphasis in the verse in which you speak.

Tell me, why would God create some who could accept and some who could not? Are you ok if you have kids and one is created to accept and one is not?

I believe the "totally depraved man" can look around and recognize God in creation if he wants to...
 
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Late Apex

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It depends on where you put the emphasis in the verse in which you speak.

Tell me, why would God create some who could accept and some who could not? Are you ok if you have kids and one is created to accept and one is not?

I believe the "totally depraved man" can look around and recognize God in creation if he wants to...

All men are "without excuse" regarding the revelation of God in His creation. That is clear. However, totally depraved man is "dead in his trespasses and sins." Dead men can't do much of anything.

If I am going to fully submit to God, I must trust in Him completely, I must love Him over and above ANYONE or ANYTHING in this life. This INCLUDES my own children.
 
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DarthNeo

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All men are "without excuse" regarding the revelation of God in His creation. That is clear. However, totally depraved man is "dead in his trespasses and sins." Dead men can't do much of anything.

If I am going to fully submit to God, I must trust in Him completely, I must love Him over and above ANYONE or ANYTHING in this life. This INCLUDES my own children.

We can agree to disagree and I won't say "I told you so" in Heaven...grin.
 
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TheSeabass

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How is bringing dead people back to life "unjust?"

What can a dead person do for himself? Absolutely nothing. Dead means dead.

I an not sure what you are referring to here about dead men.

My point was that God uses His foreknowledge in knowing what men will choose when put in certain circumstances. Thereby God accomplishes His sovereign will by using man's free will choices and not by forcing things on man violating mans free will and making God culpable in the process.

For example, God created the circumstance in sending Moses to Pharaoh with the command to let my people go. God foreknew that Pharaoh of his own free will would choose to disobey and God used Pharaoh's disobedience to accomplish His own will Romans 9:17. In this process God did not violate Pharaoh's free will and since God created the circumstance that forced Pharaoh to choose to obey or not, God is said to harden his heart
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Late Apex said: ↑ That is fine. Actually, I was an Arminian 40 years ago. Very simply, the part I could not accept was the fact that I perceived my choice as a "work" no matter how I sliced it and therefore had room to boast.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sad. Since

The Creator Created "works" for all of us to do every day.

HE scheduled them before even creating the world and the universe.

Are you saying you do not boast in HIM, and do NOT do what HE SAYS TO DO ?

We are called to DO HIS WORD, to Do what HE calls us to do, and our only boast is IN CHRIST CRUCIFIED, IN JESUS!

If we do not do what HE CALLS US TO DO, we either suffer great loss and are judged, as unfaithful servants...

or we get thrown in the lake of fire with the rest of the world.
 
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bling

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How is bringing dead people back to life "unjust?"

What can a dead person do for himself? Absolutely nothing. Dead means dead.
Jesus could have used any words he wanted to describe the prodigal son, but he described the prodigal son twice as being "dead" even though the father knew he was physically alive. While in this dead state the prodigal son was able on his own to come to his senses and turn to the father.
So by Deities definition of a dead person, at least some times,these dead people can still do stuff.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Would being 'saved by believing' be considered an impossible work? I'm sure that you're referring to most quoted piece of scripture, John 3:16. If you do not fully understand (or believe in it) the spiritual condition of man regarding what he is and is not capable of as a sinner, then I can see how you hadn't given this phrasing a second thought. I wish to show you that the saved believe because they are saved, not because they believe.

Saved by believing, or more specifically saved by Christ because we believe, is never treated in scripture as an 'impossible work' or a 'dead work.' Salvation itself is treated as impossible for man on his own, as is achieving salvation via 'dead works'. Faith, conversely, is specifically contrasted with works and is treated as the 'work of God we must perform'.

"Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God? Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Jn 6:28-29

We do not receive salvation <b>unless</b> we believe. (Eph 2:8, Eph 1:13, II Tim 2:15, Jn 3:16, I Pet 1:5, Rom 4:16, Col 2:12, etc.) This is at the core of the gospel message: Salvation only comes through faith.

Jn 3:14- 18 make this sequence very clear:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone believing (active) may hold (active) eternal life in him. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that everyone believing (active) in him shall not perish but hold (active) eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes (active) in him is not condemned, but whoever is not believing (active) already stands condemned because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Because of God’s love, Christ died and was raised and revealed Himself to man. All men stand condemned under sin, but anyone who believes (active) in the Son holds (active) eternal life.

The passage gives the further hope that some not believing now can turn to belief and hence turn from condemnation unto eternal life.

We do not receive faith because we are saved, nor do we receive faith because we have already received the promises (that would throw the gospel on its head and make it nonsensical, with no reason for the work of Christ on the cross at all since salvation would be given to us prior, and regardless of, faith in Christ.) Christ does all the 'work' required for our salvation, but we receive the benefits of that work (atonement, credited righteousness, eternal life, the Spirit, etc.) through faith.

Which is correct? "IF you believe, THEN you are saved" or "You're saved! Believe it!"!"
 
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Late Apex

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Jesus could have used any words he wanted to describe the prodigal son, but he described the prodigal son twice as being "dead" even though the father knew he was physically alive. While in this dead state the prodigal son was able on his own to come to his senses and turn to the father.
So by Deities definition of a dead person, at least some times,these dead people can still do stuff.
Please quote the verse in KJV if possible and we can discuss.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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... If you do not fully understand (or believe in it) the spiritual condition of man regarding what he is and is not capable of as a sinner, then I can see how you hadn't given this phrasing a second thought. I wish to show you that the saved believe because they are saved, not because they believe....Unbelievers cannot believe on their own nor would they want to, for the simple fact that a person cannot act against his/her own will. A fallen man has no desire for Christ...

Your core supposition seems to be that man cannot respond to the gospel in faith, despite all the work of God in revealing Christ to man, Christ’s work on the cross, the work of the Spirit in generally convicting the world of sin, the scriptures, testimonies, signs and wonders, etc. While man is fallen and corrupted by sin, I can think of no scripture that states that Christ’s work on the cross was insufficient for fallen man to respond to the gospel in faith. Indeed, the reason Christ died on the cross was to bring a salvation that was by faith, rather than by the works that man could not do.

All men sin (Rom 3:10-23), sin corrupts every aspect of our being, such as flesh, heart, mind, etc, (Mark 7:21-23), and man cannot save himself via his own righteousness or works (Psalm 60:10-12, padding:0in">Is 63:5-6).

But man is not somehow ‘so tainted by sin’ that he cannot even respond to the revelation of Christ and the gospel in faith, thereby accepting the offer of Christ’s salvation and receive Christ's deliverance from sin.

Scripture asks us over and over to believe: Rom 10:9-13, John 3:14-21, Luke 11:5-13, Heb 11:13-16, Gal 3:24, Deut 30:11-14, etc).

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." I Jn 3:23-24

Scripture specifically states that it is with our own heart that we believe:

“For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith unto salvation.” Rom 10:10

It does not say, "your heart cannot believe unto righteousness and your mouth is incapable of profession unless you are already saved" - it says with our own hearts we believe into/unto salvation!

Man, even in his fallen state where he cannot be completely without sin or achieve perfection, can still choose to do good:

“Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.” Rom 2:14-15

God, in His sovereignty, created man with a conscience! As such, even unbelievers are capable of sometimes doing ‘what the law requires’. How much more so, then, can we ‘do the work that God requires’ and simply believe, which is not a work of the law!

Man, even in his fallen state corrupted by sin, can still have positive emotions such as familial care and affection:

““Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Lk 11:11-13

Man, even though corrupted by sin, can still think of the welfare of others or hold affection for them. (Also note that this verse says the Father gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask – not before they ask so that they will ask or some other convoluted system.)

Man, even though he is fallen, still has the God-given capacity of choice:

““But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve…. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.
Then the people answered, “Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes…We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God.”
Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.”

But the people said to Joshua, “No! We will serve the Lord.”

Then Joshua said, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.”

“Yes, we are witnesses,” they replied.” Josh 24:15-22 (the whole chapter is good)

“"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days….” – Duet 30:19-20

Even wicked man in his fallen state can humble himself before God and repent:

“(There was never anyone like Ahab, who sold himself to do evil in the eyes of the Lord, urged on by Jezebel his wife. He behaved in the vilest manner by going after idols, like the Amorites the Lord drove out before Israel.)

When Ahab heard these words, he tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and fasted. He lay in sackcloth and went around meekly.

Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite: “Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son.” - I Kings 21:25-28

“When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust…. When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.” – Jonah 3:6-10

God, in His sovereign grace, gave us the scriptures that have looked forward to Christ from the beginning, and that are able to make us wise for salvation:

“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” II Tim 3:14-15

Man, even in his fallen state, can still ‘believe with his heart’ and ‘declare with his mouth.’ (Rom 10:8-10)

“For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith unto salvation.” Rom 10:10


Faith is not a special gift granted to those already saved, but rather “faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.” Rom 10:17


It is not the children of God who are given faith, but rather those who receive Christ in faith who receive the right to be called children of God. “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent (like normal childbirth), nor of human decision (human adoption) or a husband’s will (willing your child to someone else after death, or other human inheritance matters), but born of God.”
 
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Late Apex

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But man is not somehow ‘so tainted by sin’ that he cannot even respond to the revelation of Christ and the gospel in faith, thereby accepting the offer of Christ’s salvation and receive Christ's deliverance from sin.
I would say "dead" is fairly tainted, n'est pas?

Ephesians 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Please quote the verse in KJV if possible and we can discuss.

"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry." Lk 15:24

"It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." Lk 15:32

The Greek term (more important than one's favored English translation) is "nekros" - literally 'dead' or 'lifeless,' figuratively used to represent various aspects of death such as being unresponsive, uncaring of spiritual things, ineffective, under the sentence of death, not having the spirit of life working in us, etc.
Strong's Greek: 3498. νεκρός (nekros) -- dead

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:1-10
What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?
 
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EmSw

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You seem to be deliberately taking my post out of context to pick a fight.

No maam. You are the one who said it was impossible to be righteous. I am showing you it is possible.

You also seem to be missing the slight difference between the OT Hebrew definition of righteous which is simply 'just' and the NT Greek definition which refers to God's judicial stamp of approval.

There is no difference. Both mean just, righteous, and lawful. The OT word has to do with a judicial 'stamp of approval' also. Both words have to do with the law.

In the OT, 'the righteous' are generally contrasted with 'the wicked' - it's not a salvific phrase, but one about the general ethics of living. Yes, man can be 'righteous' in the sense of generally living a moral life and faithfully following God. They can be legally righteous in not being under any penalty of law for crimes committed. They can be ethically righteous in not trying to defraud their fellow man and in seeking upright paths.

In the NT, the righteous are contrasted with the wicked also. Of course, righteousness in the OT is salvific. Who told you otherwise?

Psalm 7:10
My defense is of God, Who saves the upright in heart.

If you care to look, the upright here means the righteous.

Here is what it says about NT 'righteous' in Strong's -

in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

As you can see, it is living a moral life. Notice 'upright' and 'virtuous'.

However, no man can be 'fully righteous' under the law so as to achieve salvation via his own merit and have no condemnation via sin. No one could achieve righteousness via the works of the law. Jesus pointed out that even mere lustful -thoughts- broke the commandment and made one a lawbreaker under the law, as well as many other points that man could never achieve perfection.

Where did you get 'fully' righteous? I don't think I've read that in the Bible. I've never read 'perfection' in connection with the law either. Who taught you this?

Now, from what I take from your words, no one was saved in the OT. Is this your belief?

Here you go again. Of course, many people achieved righteousness via the works of the law. Did you read any of the passages I gave you? Do you think the Bible is lying about Zachariah and Elizabeth?

"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God...Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

You, like Paul, take that passage from Psalm out of context. That's a no-no. Go read it in Psalm and see who is the guilty one of which it is speaking (hint: try a fool).

God never said, through the law we become conscious of our sin, in the OT. Let's see what is actually said.

Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp, and the law a light; reproofs of instruction are the way of life,

The law is a lamp, a light. They are for reproofs of instructions and the way of life.

This is the same as said about Jesus. The law is a light and Jesus is the light. Now let's see what Jesus says about the light.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


The light (the law) came into the world, but men loved darkness rather the light. Why? Because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil, hates the light (the law), and will not come to the light (the law), lest their deeds should be reproved.

The law is the WORD of God, just as Jesus is. You can't separate them. You can't abolish one without abolishing the other. They both expose evil deeds and reprove them. In reproof, is the way of life.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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That is fine. Actually, I was an Arminian 40 years ago. Very simply, the part I could not accept was the fact that I perceived my choice as a "work" no matter how I sliced it and therefore had room to boast. For if my choice was the definitive factor of saving me over someone else, then my choice was a work of some kind because I myself made said choice. I struggled with this for years until I finally came to the end of myself and confessed to God that even my choice was not an acceptable work to God because there was nothing good in me.

That is when I finally heard the doctrines of grace and it all made sense.

Scripture contrasts faith with works in every way. While you may have perceived faith as a 'boastful work,' scripture clarifies that faith is rooted in humility and contrasted with boasting. Can you point me to a scripture that labels faith as a dead work of man or as a reason for boastful pride?

"Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith." Rom 3:27

Placing our faith in Christ is humbling - not a boast or a work. To say, "I placed my faith in Christ" or "I accepted Christ as my Saviour" isn't something we can boast in, for by doing so we admit several things that are contrary to the nature of pride:

1) We acknowledge that we are sinners.

"This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the worst. But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience, as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life." I Tim 1:15-16

By acknowledging our sin, we place the glory on Christ for His mercy in saving those who believe, not in anything we did.

The proud will either not admit their sin (I John 1:8) or they will love their sin and hide from anything that might convict them regarding it (Jn 3:19-20)

2) We acknowledge that we are under condemnation for our sin and need rescue.

By placing our faith in Christ, we are humbly admitting that the just penalty of our sin is death (Rom 6:23, Jn 3:18) and hence we need saving. The proud will often deny they need saving at all.

3) We acknowledge that it is Christ alone who can save.

The proud will not admit that Christ is the only one who can save them and deliver them from death to life. If they believe they need saving at all, they look to themselves for saving (karma, good works, enlightenment, etc.)

4) We acknowledge that Christ saves us out of His mercy as a free gift to those who believe.

By acknowledging that salvation is a free gift offered by Christ, we humbly admit that it is not something 'owed' to us for our own merit, nor did Christ 'have' to die on our behalf to bring salvation. (Rom 6:23, Rom 5:16, Rev 22:17, Tit 3:5)

During Paul's ministry, the fact the gospel was open and preached to Gentiles as well was a huge stumbling block for the Jews, who thought the Messiah was to come in power to overthrow Rome, not die to let Gentiles be reconciled to God. (I Cor 1:23-24) The fact that salvation was free, to all sinners, was also a stumbling block to the proud pharisees.

5) We acknowledge that Christ has all authority and is Shepherd of our lives.

By placing our faith in Christ we submit to Him, dying to sin and self (I Pet 2:24-25, Eph 4:22, Col 3:9). We then, in humility, submit to Christ (Eph 5:24). Our whole lives become humble service to our King (Rom 12:1, Col 3:23-25, Heb 9:14)

6) Faith leads us to continual humility in regards to our fellow man

Just as faith leads to a lifelong submission to Christ, so faith also leads us to submit to one another (Eph 5:21) and continually keep a proper perspective in our dealings with others in the church (II Cor 10:7-18, Gal 5:13)

"Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord. For it is l not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends." II Cor 10:17-18

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you." Rom 12:3

...Do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble." Rom 11:18-21

***

So then, faith is in every way contrasted with boasting, for it is based in humility, in a proper regard for one's position in regard to Christ. If a man proclaims, "I have placed my faith in Christ!" this is not a boast, but humility, for he is testifying that, "I was a sinner under condemnation for my wicked deeds, one in need of salvation, a salvation that only Jesus the Messiah could provide. I believe the Messiah is who He claims, with all authority given to Him. I have repented and given my life to Him, have died to myself and risen with him, and God for the sake of Christ's righteousness and His glory shall grant me eternal life."

What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?
What are the doctrines of grace?
 
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While you may have perceived faith as a 'boastful work,' scripture clarifies that faith is rooted in humility and contrasted with boasting.

Where did I say I perceived faith as a boastful work? Faith is the gift of God.
Room to boast comes in the choice, in my opinion. For if I choose Christ and the person who goes to hell did not, then I have ROOM to boast because I did something that the other could have, but did not. THAT's what I said.

You never replied to my post #32

BTW: I certainly choose Christ. Why? Because God quickened me, made me alive when I was dead.
I love Christ. Why? Because God loved me first. God is first, I am second. The horse goes before the cart.
 
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Jesus could have used any words he wanted to describe the prodigal son, but he described the prodigal son twice as being "dead" even though the father knew he was physically alive. While in this dead state the prodigal son was able on his own to come to his senses and turn to the father.
So by Deities definition of a dead person, at least some times,these dead people can still do stuff.

Luke 15:24
[24] For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

He was dead spiritually. God did a work in this "sons" heart. God made this "son" alive, just as he does with all of His children. The saving is from God, start to finish.

I was once dead too. How was I made alive? God did it. How will I persevere? God makes me both willing and to do of His good pleasure.
God will "finish the work" He started in me, God willing!
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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I would say "dead" is fairly tainted, n'est pas?


Ephesians 2:

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Taking Eph 2:1 to mean that sinners cannot have faith is an over-extrapolation of a figurative term. The prodigal son was 'dead' but still repented and returned to his father (Lk 15:24, Lk 15:32). 'Nekros,' used figuratively, can refer to many aspects of being dead but it does not refer to all aspects simultaneously.

Eph 2 specifically calls out what aspects are being used – that we conducted our lives seeking the flesh, and the deeds of the flesh which bring death, and were by nature deserving of wrath and so under the sentence of death: "dead in our trespasses and sins in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.” Eph 2:1-3

Other aspects of death – complete unresponsiveness, stinking corpses, no awareness, etc. are not being referenced. Figurative language, analogies, parables, etc. – these all are limited in scope as they make points based off aspects of literal things or situations, they are not treating the figurative and literal as equivalents in every way. Context often limits what is meant, as Eph 2:1-3 does amply.

Not only that, but the passage continues and clarifies that “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith” – not ‘you were so dead that you could not have faith.’ By grace and through faith, God made us alive with Christ! We now have the spirit to live by, rather than our dead flesh.
What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

Eph 1 also sheds light on this ‘death’ vs. ‘life’:

“I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms” Eph 1:19-20

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.” Eph 1:13-14

It is God who makes believers “alive” by granting us the Spirit to walk by and seating us with Christ. We do not have to first be ‘alive’ to receive the spirit or to respond to the message of truth in faith!
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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BUT, not all have faith. Faith is the gift of God.

If you are referring to Eph 2:8, it does not say 'faith is the gift of God.' In the Greek, the grammar points to 'salvation' as the gift, but viewed through the whole process 'salvation, by grace and through faith.'

'That' - τοῦτο - is neuter gender, but "faith" - πίστις - is in the feminine. "That" cannot then refer specifically to 'faith' as the gift of God, but to the subject of "the salvation by grace." Even John Calvin did not take 'faith' as the gift in this passage but to the main idea of 'by grace you have been saved.'

What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?
 
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bling

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Please quote the verse in KJV if possible and we can discuss.
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
 
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