God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility

[Late Apex]

I unequivocally affirm the Sovereignty of God. I love the fact that God is Sovereign. However, in conjunction with this truth lies somewhere the responsibility of man. A.W. Pink tries to answer in his book "The Sovereignty of God." I like Pink, but do not think he answered fully. Perhaps it is something man cannot fully understand. I would like to discuss these following questions as asked by Pink in His chapter on Sovereignty and Human Responsibility:


"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility? Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do? And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do? Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them? Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation?"

 

[friend of]

What Is the Will of God and How Do We Know It? | Desiring God


Romans 12:1-2 "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

The aim of Romans 12:1–2 is that all of life would become “spiritual worship.” Verse 1: “Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.” The aim of all human life in God’s eyes is that Christ would be made to look as valuable as he is. Worship means using our minds and hearts and bodies to express the worth of God and all he is for us in Jesus. There is a way to live — a way to love — that does that. There is a way to do your job that expresses the true value of God. If you can’t find it, that may mean you should change jobs. Or it might mean that verse 2 is not happening to the degree it should.

Verse 2 is Paul’s answer to how we turn all of life into worship. We must be transformed. We must be transformed. Not just our external behavior, but the way we feel and think — our minds. Verse 2: “Be transformed by the renewal of your mind.”

Become What You Are

Those who believe in Christ Jesus are already blood-bought new creatures in Christ. “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17). But now we must become what we are. “Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened” (1 Corinthians 5:7).

“You have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator” (Colossians 3:10). You have been made new in Christ; and now you are being renewed day by day. That’s what we focused on last week.

Now we focus on the last part of verse 2, namely, the aim of the renewed mind: “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, [now here comes the aim] that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” So our focus today is on the meaning of the term “will of God,” and how we discern it.

There are two clear and very different meanings for the term “will of God” in the Bible. We need to know them and decide which one is being used here in Romans 12:2. In fact, knowing the difference between these two meanings of “the will of God” is crucial to understanding one of the biggest and most perplexing things in all the Bible, namely, that God is sovereign over all things and yet disapproves of many things. Which means that God disapproves of some of what he ordains to happen. That is, he forbids some of the things he brings about. And he commands some of the things he hinders. Or to put it most paradoxically: God wills some events in one sense that he does not will in another sense.

1. God’s Will of Decree, or Sovereign Will
Let’s see the passages of Scripture that make us think this way. First consider passages that describe “the will of God” as his sovereign control of all that comes to pass. One of the clearest is the way Jesus spoke of the will of God in Gethsemane when he was praying. He said, in Matthew 26:39, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” What does the will of God refer to in this verse? It refers to the sovereign plan of God that will happen in the coming hours. You recall how Acts 4:27–28says this: “Truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” So the “will of God” was that Jesus die. This was his plan, his decree. There was no changing it, and Jesus bowed and said, “Here’s my request, but you do what is best to do.” That’s the sovereign will of God.

And don’t miss the very crucial point here that it includes the sins of man. Herod, Pilate, the soldiers, the Jewish leaders — they all sinned in fulfilling God’s will that his Son be crucified (Isaiah 53:10). So be very clear on this: God wills to come to pass some things that he hates.

Here’s an example from 1 Peter. In 1 Peter 3:17 Peter writes, “It is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.” In other words, it may be God’s will that Christians suffer for doing good. He has in mind persecution. But persecution of Christians who do not deserve it is sin. So again, God sometimes wills that events come about that include sin. “It is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will.”

Paul gives a sweeping summary statement of this truth in Ephesians 1:11, “In him [Christ] we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” The will of God is God’s sovereign governance of all that comes to pass. And there are many other passages in the Bible that teach that God’s providence over the universe extends to the smallest details of nature and human decisions. Not one sparrow falls to the ground apart from our Father in heaven (Matthew 10:29). “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord” (Proverbs 16:33). “The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord” (Proverbs 16:1). “The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will” (Proverbs 21:1).

That’s the first meaning of the will of God: It is God’s sovereign control of all things. We will call this his “sovereign will” or his “will of decree.” It cannot be broken. It always comes to pass. “He does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, ‘What have you done?’” (Daniel 4:35).

2. God’s Will of Command
Now the other meaning for “the will of God” in the Bible is what we can call his “will of command.” His will is what he commands us to do. This is the will of God we can disobey and fail to do. The will of decree we do whether we believe in it or not. The will of command we can fail to do. For example, Jesus said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). Not all do the will of his Father. He says so. “Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.” Why? Because not all do the will of God.

Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:3, “This is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality.” Here we have a very specific instance of what God commands of us: holiness, sanctification, sexual purity. This is his will of command. But, oh, so many do not obey.

Then Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:18, “Give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.” There again is a specific aspect of his will of command: Give thanks in all circumstances. But many do not do this will of God.

One more example: “And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever” (1 John 2:17). Not all abide forever. Some do. Some don’t. The difference? Some do the will of God. Some don’t. The will of God, in this sense, does not always happen.

So I conclude from these and many other passages of the Bible that there are two ways of talking about the will of God. Both are true, and both are important to understand and believe in. One we can call God’s will of decree(or his sovereign will) and the other we can call God’s will of command. His will of decree always comes to pass whether we believe in it or not. His will of command can be broken, and is every day.

Before I relate this to Romans 12:2 let me comment on how precious these two truths are. Both correspond to a deep need that we all have when we are deeply hurt or experience great loss. On the one hand, we need the assurance that God is in control and therefore is able to work all of my pain and loss together for my good and the good of all who love him. On the other hand, we need to know that God empathizes with us and does not delight in sin or pain in and of themselves. These two needs correspond to God’s will of decree and his will of command.

For example, if you were badly abused as a child, and someone asks you, “Do you think that was the will of God?” you now have a way to make some biblical sense out of this, and give an answer that doesn’t contradict the Bible. You may say, “No it was not God’s will; because he commands that humans not be abusive, but love each other. The abuse broke his commandment and therefore moved his heart with anger and grief (Mark 3:5). But, in another sense, yes, it was God’s will (his sovereign will), because there are a hundred ways he could have stopped it. But for reasons I don’t yet fully understand, he didn’t.”

And corresponding to these two wills are the two things you need in this situation: one is a God who is strong and sovereign enough to turn it for good; and the other is a God who is able to empathize with you. On the one hand, Christ is a sovereign High King, and nothing happens apart from his will (Matthew 28:18). On the other hand, Christ is a merciful High Priest and sympathizes with our weaknesses and pain (Hebrews 4:15). The Holy Spirit conquers us and our sins when he wills (John 1:13; Romans 9:15–16), and allows himself to be quenched and grieved and angered when he wills (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). His sovereign will is invincible, and his will of command can be grievously broken.

We need both these truths — both these understandings of the will of God — not only to make sense out of the Bible, but to hold fast to God in suffering.

Which Will Is Referred to in Romans 12:2?
Now, which of these is meant in Romans 12:2, “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” The answer surely is that Paul is referring to God’s will of command. I say this for at least two reasons. One is that God does not intend for us to know most of his sovereign will ahead of time. “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us” (Deuteronomy 29:29). If you want to know the future details of God’s will of decree, you don’t want a renewed mind, you want a crystal ball. This is not called transformation and obedience; it’s called divination, soothsaying.

The other reason I say that the will of God in Romans 12:2 is God’s will of command and not his will of decree is that the phrase “by testing you may discern” implies that we should approve of the will of God and then obediently do it. But in fact we should not approve of sin or do it, even though it is part of God’s sovereign will. Paul’s meaning in Romans 12:2 is paraphrased almost exactly in Hebrews 5:14, which says, “Solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.” (See another paraphrase in Philippians 1:9–11.) That’s the goal of this verse: not ferreting out the secret will of God that he plans to do, but discerning the revealed will of God that we ought to do.

Three Stages of Knowing and Doing the Revealed Will of God
There are three stages of knowing and doing the revealed will of God, that is, his will of command; and all of them require the renewed mind with its Holy-Spirit-given discernment that we talked about last time.

Stage One
First, God’s will of command is revealed with final, decisive authority only in the Bible. And we need the renewed mind to understand and embrace what God commands in the Scripture. Without the renewed mind, we will distort the Scriptures to avoid their radical commands for self-denial, and love, and purity, and supreme satisfaction in Christ alone. God’s authoritative will of command is found only in the Bible. Paul says that the Scriptures are inspired and make the Christian “competent, equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16–17). Not just some good works. “Every good work.” Oh, what energy and time and devotion Christians should spend meditating on the written Word of God.

Stage Two
The second stage of God’s will of command is our application of the biblical truth to new situations that may or may not be explicitly addressed in the Bible. The Bible does not tell you which person to marry, or which car to drive, or whether to own a home, where you take your vacation, what cell phone plan to buy, or which brand of orange juice to drink. Or a thousand other choices you must make.

What is necessary is that we have a renewed mind, that is so shaped and so governed by the revealed will of God in the Bible, that we see and assess all relevant factors with the mind of Christ, and discern what God is calling us to do. This is very different from constantly trying to hear God’s voice saying do this and do that. People who try to lead their lives by hearing voices are not in sync with Romans 12:2.

There is a world of difference between praying and laboring for a renewed mind that discerns how to apply God’s Word, on the one hand, and the habit of asking God to give you new revelation of what to do, on the other hand. Divination does not require transformation. God’s aim is a new mind, a new way of thinking and judging, not just new information. His aim is that we be transformed, sanctified, freed by the truth of his revealed Word (John 8:32; 17:17). So the second stage of God’s will of command is the discerning application of the Scriptures to new situations in life by means of a renewed mind.

Stage Three
Finally, the third stage of God’s will of command is the vast majority of living where there is no conscious reflection before we act. I venture to say that a good 95 percent of your behavior you do not premeditate. That is, most of your thoughts, attitudes, and actions are spontaneous. They are just spillover from what’s inside. Jesus said, “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak” (Matthew 12:34–36).

Why do I call this part of God’s will of command? For one reason. Because God commands things like: Don’t be angry. Don’t be prideful. Don’t covet. Don’t be anxious. Don’t be jealous. Don’t envy. And none of those actions are premeditated. Anger, pride, covetousness, anxiety, jealousy, envy — they all just rise up out of the heart with no conscious reflection or intention. And we are guilty because of them. They break the commandment of God.

Is it not plain therefore that there is one great task of the Christian life: Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. We need new hearts and new minds. Make the tree good and the fruit will be good (Matthew 12:33). That’s the great challenge. That is what God calls you to. You can’t do it on your own. You need Christ, who died for your sins. And you need the Holy Spirit to lead you into Christ-exalting truth and to work in you truth-embracing humility.

Give yourself to this. Immerse yourself in the written Word of God; saturate your mind with it. And pray that the Spirit of Christ would make you so new that the spillover would be good, acceptable, and perfect — the will of God.
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What is the difference between God's sovereign will and God's perfect will?

Additional reading ^

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation?"

Last first, after reading through them one by one below,

God is the Judge. His Law is Final , Complete, Righteous and Just. There is no other to consider.
================================

"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility?

He is Perfect and Knows Everything inside and out for all time. What He Does, He Pleases to DO.
If men want to trust Him and WILLINGLY with JOY seek HIM and DO TORAH, He chooses to save them. If men want to oppose Him, they lose.
================================

Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do?

Moses could not part the SEA, but HE BELIEVED YHWH.
The SEA got parted.
Same with every other duty, command, desire or obstacle, even impossible ones - Beleive God and DO what HE says, and it will be well with you.
=============================

And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do?

Those who did not believe YHWH, DROWNED instead of getting through the sea.
Those who DID BELIEVE YHWH, got through the SEA on dry ground, alive and well. (better than well - protected and cared for by YHWH the rest of their lives!)
==============================

Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them?

He is the Judge, and does whatever He pleases.

There is no changing His decree, unless in line with His decree.

 

[TheSeabass]

I unequivocally affirm the Sovereignty of God. I love the fact that God is Sovereign. However, in conjunction with this truth lies somewhere the responsibility of man. A.W. Pink tries to answer in his book "The Sovereignty of God." I like Pink, but do not think he answered fully. Perhaps it is something man cannot fully understand. I would like to discuss these following questions as asked by Pink in His chapter on Sovereignty and Human Responsibility:


"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility? Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do? And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do? Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them? Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation?"

God is sovereign over His creation but that does not mean God has to force men to do things against the will of man. Look as passages as Acts 2:23 and the life of Judas:

--it was the sovereign intent of God that Christ die for the sins of men.
--God in His foreknowledge knew that if He sent Christ to earth at the time His did among those people (Jews, Romans and Judas) they of their own free will would choose to betray Christ (Judas) and crucify Him (Jews/Romans).
--thereby God using His foreknowledge of man's choices, used those free will choices to accomplish His own sovereign will and not unjust, unfairly force things against the will of men.
--God is not so weak that the only way He can be sovereign is by forcing things upon man against the will of man.

 

[Late Apex]

thereby God using His foreknowledge of man's choices, used those free will choices to accomplish His own sovereign will and not unjust, unfairly force things against the will of men.

How is bringing dead people back to life "unjust?"

What can a dead person do for himself? Absolutely nothing. Dead means dead.

 

[GillDouglas]

These are certainly difficult questions. I would point out that the fact that though God has allowed sin to enter the world, it does not absolve us (mankind, through Adam) from our responsibility for sin. Thank God that He had implemented a plan of redemption in a grand display of his undeserved love and mercy.

"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility?

Human freedom can never restrict the sovereignty of God, therefore choices are not prevented but instead made unavailable. Regarding the choices available, desire plays the vital role of providing a motivation or reason for making a choice. People will always make a choice according to the strongest inclination or desire at that time. When considering the condition that people are born into, our desire to disobey God is greater than the choice not to. If the doctrine of Original Sin is untrue, then the desire to obey God would be greater than the choice not to, and therefore one would never sin. Regardless of the driving force behind the choice, the responsibility rests with the one making the choice.

Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do? And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do?

These are not the reasons the sinner is held responsible and condemned, but for the actions and choices he is able to do.

Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them?

Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had the ability to sin and the ability not to sin. They chose to sin, and humanity as a whole is held responsible. Some will remain guilty, while others redeemed by Christ's work. Why some would remain I could not say with certainty. Only God knows the purpose of His decrees.

Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation?"

All of mankind is born rejecting Christ, and it is his continued rebellion that keeps him condemned. If the final decision for the salvation of mankind were left in the hands of sinners, not one person would be saved.

 

[Late Apex]

These are certainly difficult questions. I would point out that the fact that though God has allowed sin to enter the world, it does not absolve us (mankind, through Adam) from our responsibility for sin. Thank God that He had implemented a plan of redemption in a grand display of his undeserved love and mercy.



Human freedom can never restrict the sovereignty of God, therefore choices are not prevented but instead made unavailable. Regarding the choices available, desire plays the vital role of providing a motivation or reason for making a choice. People will always make a choice according to the strongest inclination or desire at that time. When considering the condition that people are born into, our desire to disobey God is greater than the choice not to. If the doctrine of Original Sin is untrue, then the desire to obey God would be greater than the choice not to, and therefore one would never sin. Regardless of the driving force behind the choice, the responsibility rests with the one making the choice.



These are not the reasons the sinner is held responsible and condemned, but for the actions and choices he is able to do.



Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had the ability to sin and the ability not to sin. They chose to sin, and humanity as a whole is held responsible. Some will remain guilty, while others redeemed by Christ's work. Why some would remain I could not say with certainty. Only God knows the purpose of His decrees.



All of mankind is born rejecting Christ, and it is his continued rebellion that keeps him condemned. If the final decision for the salvation of mankind were left in the hands of sinners, not one person would be saved.

I agree with what you say. My problem comes with someone like Pharaoh. Basically he was a vessel of wrath "fitted" to destruction. In other words, Pharaoh was raised up by God, was groomed for lack of a better word, for destruction. A vessel used by God to essentially glorify God's perfect wrath and to show God's power throughout all the earth.

So, the part I cannot put my mind around is how God can do all this and yet Pharaoh remain 100% guilty and responsible for everything he did. I accept it as truth, but I cannot fully understand it. Maybe I am not meant to understand, just accept God's word and believe....which is what I do.

The reason for the OP is because I want to understand more, if possible.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, the part I cannot put my mind around is how God can do all this and yet Pharaoh remain 100% guilty and responsible for everything he did. I accept it as truth, but I cannot fully understand it. Maybe I am not meant to understand, just accept God's word and believe....which is what I do.

Good ,
as
YHWH is perfect in judgment, righteous in all HE does,
not as man sees things either, ever.

 

[EmSw]

I agree with what you say. My problem comes with someone like Pharaoh. Basically he was a vessel of wrath "fitted" to destruction. In other words, Pharaoh was raised up by God, was groomed for lack of a better word, for destruction. A vessel used by God to essentially glorify God's perfect wrath and to show God's power throughout all the earth.

So, the part I cannot put my mind around is how God can do all this and yet Pharaoh remain 100% guilty and responsible for everything he did. I accept it as truth, but I cannot fully understand it. Maybe I am not meant to understand, just accept God's word and believe....which is what I do.

Then you have no idea that you might be groomed by God for destruction. All of your thinking, wondering, and worshiping God may be to no avail. You are on a roller coaster ride to nowhere. Everything you do think, speak, and do is of no importance to anyone; you may be fitted for destruction and have no clue why.

If you think you are better than Pharaoh, and should get a better destiny, you are only kidding yourself with your beliefs. There is NO hope in your beliefs; you are living on a lottery chance. This is why you can't put your mind around it, if fails understanding and rationality.

Maybe you should eat, drink, and be merry today, for your future may be one of destruction, and you have no say in the matter.

 

[Late Apex]

Good ,
as
YHWH is perfect in judgment, righteous in all HE does,
not as man sees things either, ever.

True.
I guess I find God so fascinating. God is so amazing, I can't even begin to understand fully, but I can't help trying.

 

[GillDouglas]

I agree with what you say. My problem comes with someone like Pharaoh. Basically he was a vessel of wrath "fitted" to destruction. In other words, Pharaoh was raised up by God, was groomed for lack of a better word, for destruction. A vessel used by God to essentially glorify God's perfect wrath and to show God's power throughout all the earth.

So, the part I cannot put my mind around is how God can do all this and yet Pharaoh remain 100% guilty and responsible for everything he did. I accept it as truth, but I cannot fully understand it. Maybe I am not meant to understand, just accept God's word and believe....which is what I do.

The reason for the OP is because I want to understand more, if possible.

Your line of questioning, and the reasons are certainly understandable. I can only assume that there are some (or many) things that God has not been willing to share with us. There are many unanswered questions surrounding why God would use one over another for a specific task. Though we see time and again in the Bible that God does not treat all men equally.

He appeared to Moses, and not Hammurabi. He blessed Israel, but not Persia. He appeared to Paul on the road to Damscus but never to Pilate. His mercy is shown to Jacob, but not Esau; Peter but not Judas. Why? We do not know, but we know enough about God's character that His decrees involving mankind are good whether we view them as such.

But in regards to Pharaoh, the Bible teaches us that evil actions flow from evil desires. All that Pharaoh did was rooted in his cruel desires, guilt for his choices are his alone.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="GillDouglas, post: 71238160, member: 344395"]
(1) He appeared to Moses, and not Hammurabi.
(2) He blessed Israel, but not Persia.
(3) He appeared to Paul on the road to Damscus but never to Pilate.
(4) His mercy is shown to Jacob, but not Esau;
(5) Peter but not Judas. Why? We do not know[/QUOTE

It would take some time to find and show from Scripture, but in each of these cases,
YHWH clearly says why in His Word.
Perhaps a reader here will volunteer the knowledge if they know?

i.e. By reading what YHWH says in His Word, we can know,
YHWH Willing of course.
(He can and does hide things also, as He Pleases)....

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

I unequivocally affirm the Sovereignty of God. I love the fact that God is Sovereign. However, in conjunction with this truth lies somewhere the responsibility of man. A.W. Pink tries to answer in his book "The Sovereignty of God." I like Pink, but do not think he answered fully. Perhaps it is something man cannot fully understand. I would like to discuss these following questions as asked by Pink in His chapter on Sovereignty and Human Responsibility:


"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility? Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do? And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do? Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them? Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation?"

I think his questions contain some misunderstandings about the sovereignty of God - or perhaps He is taking common misunderstandings and pointing out their implausibility. God being sovereign means, as the word entails, that He is in authority and ultimate control over the universe. That doesn't mean God must 'micromanage' and force every action. God, in His sovereignty, set up natural laws that the universe must follow and that 'limit' the actions of nature. God can supersede those laws as He wills - but in the meantime He doesn't need to push around every molecule and determine every reaction of every particle - the laws He already set in place do so. In the same way, God created man with 'limits' on His abilities (we cannot fly for example) - but that does not mean God must force every action of man or that God causes man to sin. Rather, God in His sovereignty also placed *rules* on man, which if man disobeys He is punished. God doesn't force man to break the rules, but He does know that limited, fallen man cannot be sinless. In His grace and mercy, He sent Christ to be sinless on our behalf. He opened a way for anyone to be saved by believing, since any man can respond to the gospel in faith; rather than by impossible works which no man could do.

Rather than try to parse out where each misunderstanding came in from, I would rather look at what scripture says about God's sovereignty and man's responsibilities in life and salvation:

#1 God, by His sovereign will, gave man the ability to choose whether to obey or disobey. (Deut 30:19, Josh 34:19, etc.) For salvation, man can either respond to the gospel in belief or refuse to believe it. (Mk 16:16)

#2 God, by His sovereign power and decree, set up boundaries/limits in which people can act. Some of these boundaries are physical, such as God creating us with opposable thumbs, but the inability to fly or breath in vacuum. Some are mental, such as granting man the ability to reason higher than the animals, but not giving man the complete and perfect knowledge of God. Some of these boundaries are moral, such as fallen man's inability to be perfectly righteous, but that man can still follow the laws of God written on their hearts (Rom 2:14-15.)

Due to these boundaries, man cannot physically work for salvation or accomplish his own deliverance. He cannot reach salvation via his own mental enlightenment. And man cannot morally achieve salvation via his own righteousness. In all these ways, it is impossible.

However, God in His sovereign mercy, knew that man could not achieve salvation within the limits he had bounded man and so created another way - faith! Rather than man having to be righteous, an impossibility, Christ would come to be righteousness on their behalf, and God would credit that righteousness to the account of any who would believe.

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9
What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

#3 God, by His character and wisdom, set the standard of righteousness. (Rom 1:17, Psalm 18:30, Eph 2:3, Psalm 119:3, Deut 32:4, Psalm 145:17, Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 51:6, Dan 9:14, Jer 9:24.) If God hadn't reached out to man with a way to be declared righteous through faith, not works, then salvation would have been impossible for man. Fortunately for us, He did!

#4 God, in His sovereign wisdom and power, set the rules by which deliverance, forgiveness, and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25) Mercifully, God offers forgiveness and deliverance to those who place their faith in Christ!

#5 God, by His sovereign power and grace, gave us everything necessary to respond to the gospel in faith through the sufficient work of Christ on the cross.

He gave us:

- Christ; God revealed. (Heb 1:3, I Cor 1:4-5, John 4:10, Jn 12:46-32, Jn 8:12)

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." Jn 1:9

Without this revelation of Christ, limited man would have never known the way of salvation.

- The offer of salvation to all people in Christ: (Titus 2:11, John 12:3-33, Matt 4:12-17, Psalm 67:1-3)

Without this gracious offer, none would have the opportunity to be saved.

- Christ delivered to death that we might live: (Rom 4:25, Gal 2:20-21, Rom 5:6-8)

Without Christ's work on the cross, there would be no atonement possible.

- The gospel proclaimed (Col 1:23, Rom 10:17, Gal 3:2-5, Heb 4:2)

Without the good news and testimony of the gospel, we would have nothing to respond to in faith.

- The general conviction of the Spirit (John 16:7-11, I Cor 14:24-25)

Without this conviction of sin, we would not know our need for a Saviour.

- The testimony and light of the church (I Cor 10:33, Matt 5:13-14)

Without this continued grace, most men would never hear of Christ.

****

See also:
How are we to understand the sequence and part that man plays in his salvation? (sequence/part man plays in salvation)
Is God sovereign or do we have a free will? (is God sovereign or do we have free will)

 

[EmSw]

However, God in His sovereign mercy, knew that man could not achieve salvation within the limits he had bounded man and so created another way - faith! Rather than man having to be righteous, an impossibility, Christ would come to be righteousness on their behalf, and God would credit that righteousness to the account of any who would believe.

Why is it so many people think it is impossible for man to be righteous? Do they read the Bible? If they do read it, do they believe it? Surely Jennifer, you believe the Bible, don't you?

Genesis 6:9
This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

You believe Noah was righteous, don't you? Christ wasn't on the earth at that time.

Genesis 18:23
Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

You do believe there were righteous and wicked people at the time of Abraham, don't you?

Deuteronomy 6:25
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.

You do believe those who obeyed the law before God were righteous, don't you?

1 Samuel 26:23
The Lord rewards everyone for their righteousness and faithfulness. The Lord delivered you into my hands today, but I would not lay a hand on the Lord’s anointed.

You do believe God rewards everyone for their righteousness, don't you?

1 Kings 3:6
Solomon answered, “you have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart.

You do believe David was righteous and upright in heart, don't you?

Psalm 1:6
For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

You do believe God watches over the way of the righteous, don't you?

Psalm 18:20
The Lord has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.

You do believe God dealt with David according to his righteousness, don't you?

Psalm 33:1
Sing joyfully to the Lord, you righteous; it is fitting for the upright to praise him.

You do believe the righteous sing joyfully to the Lord and praise Him, don't you?

Psalm 34:17
The righteous cry out, and the Lord hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles.

You do believe the righteous cry out to God, and He hears them, don't you?

Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

You do believe God loves righteousness and hates wickedness, don't you?

Luke 1:6
Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.

You do believe Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous before God, don't you?

So tell us Jennifer, why do you believe it's impossible for anyone to be righteous?

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

Paul did not either, know this passage, or got it wrong.

Exodus 23:7
Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.

God does not justify the ungodly. Sorry, you should be careful to examine whether Paul is telling the truth or not. Why would God justify that which He hates?

Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Why is it so many people think it is impossible for man to be righteous? Do they read the Bible? If they do read it, do they believe it? Surely Jennifer, you believe the Bible, don't you?

Genesis 6:9
This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

You believe Noah was righteous, don't you? Christ wasn't on the earth at that time.

Genesis 18:23
Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

You do believe there were righteous and wicked people at the time of Abraham, don't you?

Deuteronomy 6:25
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.

You do believe those who obeyed the law before God were righteous, don't you?

1 Samuel 26:23
The Lord rewards everyone for their righteousness and faithfulness. The Lord delivered you into my hands today, but I would not lay a hand on the Lord’s anointed.

You do believe God rewards everyone for their righteousness, don't you?

1 Kings 3:6
Solomon answered, “you have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart.

You do believe David was righteous and upright in heart, don't you?

Psalm 1:6
For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

You do believe God watches over the way of the righteous, don't you?

Psalm 18:20
The Lord has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.

You do believe God dealt with David according to his righteousness, don't you?

Psalm 33:1
Sing joyfully to the Lord, you righteous; it is fitting for the upright to praise him.

You do believe the righteous sing joyfully to the Lord and praise Him, don't you?

Psalm 34:17
The righteous cry out, and the Lord hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles.

You do believe the righteous cry out to God, and He hears them, don't you?

Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

You do believe God loves righteousness and hates wickedness, don't you?

Luke 1:6
Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.

You do believe Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous before God, don't you?

So tell us Jennifer, why do you believe it's impossible for anyone to be righteous?



Paul did not either, know this passage, or got it wrong.

Exodus 23:7
Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.

God does not justify the ungodly. Sorry, you should be careful to examine whether Paul is telling the truth or not. Why would God justify that which He hates?

Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

You seem to be deliberately taking my post out of context to pick a fight. You also seem to be missing the slight difference between the OT Hebrew definition of righteous which is simply 'just' and the NT Greek definition which refers to God's judicial stamp of approval. In the OT, 'the righteous' are generally contrasted with 'the wicked' - it's not a salvific phrase, but one about the general ethics of living. Yes, man can be 'righteous' in the sense of generally living a moral life and faithfully following God. They can be legally righteous in not being under any penalty of law for crimes committed. They can be ethically righteous in not trying to defraud their fellow man and in seeking upright paths. However, no man can be 'fully righteous' under the law so as to achieve salvation via his own merit and have no condemnation via sin. No one could achieve righteousness via the works of the law. Jesus pointed out that even mere lustful -thoughts- broke the commandment and made one a lawbreaker under the law, as well as many other points that man could never achieve perfection.

"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God...Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Rom 3:10-26

"I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

 

[com7fy8]

"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility?

"God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and in 1 Peter 5:5. It is good, how God resists us in our egotistical stuff, so we do not get into the trouble that we could and hurt others as much as we would. And even if we do not do some wrong thing which He stops us from doing, still we are responsible for having the nature and desire to do it.

If God causes us to do something which we were not about to do; this is good, we are better off. And what really is good is if God changes our character so we become more loving so we do what He wants, instead of our own ego's stuff. And of our own nature we can not change our own selves to become more loving (2 Corinthians 3:4-5); so it is good, howsoever God overrides our inability to better our own character, and changes us to become more genuine in His own love's nature . . . including so we are prepared to share eternity with Him >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

 

[GillDouglas]

In His grace and mercy, He sent Christ to be sinless on our behalf. He opened a way for anyone to be saved by believing, since any man can respond to the gospel in faith; rather than by impossible works which no man could do.

Would being 'saved by believing' be considered an impossible work? I'm sure that you're referring to most quoted piece of scripture, John 3:16. If you do not fully understand (or believe in it) the spiritual condition of man regarding what he is and is not capable of as a sinner, then I can see how you hadn't given this phrasing a second thought. I wish to show you that the saved believe because they are saved, not because they believe.

The breakdown is this , whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life), but does it say exactly who? We know that Christ said to Nicodemus "..unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). What does Jesus mean 'born again', is it the believing or something more? Paul says that "The fleshly mind [fallen unbeliever] is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you" (Romans 8:7-9). Jesus' response to Nicodemus is similar to Paul's words, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:5-6).

Unbelievers cannot believe on their own nor would they want to, for the simple fact that a person cannot act against his/her own will. A fallen man has no desire for Christ, and only by the effectual grace of God working in his heart can bring about a believing faith.

 

[Late Apex]

"God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and in 1 Peter 5:5. It is good, how God resists us in our egotistical stuff, so we do not get into the trouble that we could and hurt others as much as we would. And even if we do not do some wrong thing which He stops us from doing, still we are responsible for having the nature and desire to do it.

If God causes us to do something which we were not about to do; this is good, we are better off. And what really is good is if God changes our character so we become more loving so we do what He wants, instead of our own ego's stuff. And of our own nature we can not change our own selves to become more loving (2 Corinthians 3:4-5); so it is good, howsoever God overrides our inability to better our own character, and changes us to become more genuine in His own love's nature . . . including so we are prepared to share eternity with Him >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Interestingly enough, if God took away all my ability, will and or desire to sin, what would be the result? Complete freedom! That is hard to understand, but very true.

 

[DarthNeo]

Age old debate of Sovereignty vs. Free Will...

The Bible supports both, God IS Sovereign and He DOES hold us accountable for our choices...

How the two work together is perhaps the greatest mystery of all and any MAN who claims to have a definitive understanding is VERY over confident...

I personally DO believe we can accept or reject the gift of Salvation God/Christ puts before us...

 

[Late Apex]

I personally DO believe we can accept or reject the gift of Salvation God/Christ puts before us...

That is fine. Actually, I was an Arminian 40 years ago. Very simply, the part I could not accept was the fact that I perceived my choice as a "work" no matter how I sliced it and therefore had room to boast. For if my choice was the definitive factor of saving me over someone else, then my choice was a work of some kind because I myself made said choice. I struggled with this for years until I finally came to the end of myself and confessed to God that even my choice was not an acceptable work to God because there was nothing good in me.

That is when I finally heard the doctrines of grace and it all made sense.