God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility

[GillDouglas]

You say: “We are all born with a sin nature.” So:

Were Adam and Eve created with this “sinful nature”?

Adam and Eve were created in a probation period of innocence. They had the ability to sin, and the ability not to sin.

If Adam and Eve were not created with a “sinful nature” and they sinned why would we have to be born with this sinful nature to sin?

We are begotten of the nature of Adam and Eve after their fall, not created in the same nature as they were. We are born with the ability to sin, but we do NOT have the ability not to sin. That is until we are regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit. At this point we are similar to Adam and Eve, but not in a probation period of innocence, only that a 'reborn' follower of Christ is made able to NOT sin.

 

[EmSw]

Adam and Eve were created in a probation period of innocence. They had the ability to sin, and the ability not to sin.

We are begotten of the nature of Adam and Eve after their fall, not created in the same nature as they were. We are born with the ability to sin, but we do NOT have the ability not to sin. That is until we are regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit. At this point we are similar to Adam and Eve, but not in a probation period of innocence, only that a 'reborn' follower of Christ is made able to NOT sin.

Doug, the word should be 'propensity' to sin. And this tendency is with the saved and unsaved. Being born again does not insure the inability to sin. All men have the ability to sin or not sin.

 

[GillDouglas]

Doug, the word should be 'propensity' to sin. And this tendency is with the saved and unsaved. Being born again does not insure the inability to sin. All men have the ability to sin or not sin.

As you can expect, I absolutely disagree with you on this, Wayne. Adam lost us our original righteousness in his disobedience, if any were still as they were (able to NOT sin) there would be a good probability, statistically, that someone (maybe even half of the world) would have remained sinless without any need for grace. Unfortunately our representative in the garden failed the test, putting us into the situation in which we are ALL in. Thus the need for Christ, so that by His works some are made righteous again.

 

[bling]

Adam and Eve were created in a probation period of innocence. They had the ability to sin, and the ability not to sin.

There is nothing in scripture that says Adam and Eve were created in a probationary period, so where did you get that from?

Adam and Eve were made “very good” by God’s standard, so why were they not created perfect like Christ is perfect?

We are begotten of the nature of Adam and Eve after their fall, not created in the same nature as they were. We are born with the ability to sin, but we do NOT have the ability not to sin. That is until we are regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit. At this point we are similar to Adam and Eve, but not in a probation period of innocence, only that a 'reborn' follower of Christ is made able to NOT sin.

The Bible did not call it a fall, so I do not call it a fall.

Where again in scripture does it talk about this “sinful nature” (some kind of different nature) coming upon Adam and Eve only after they sinned and where does it say this “nature” was passed down to all humans?

 

[EmSw]

As you can expect, I absolutely disagree with you on this, Wayne. Adam lost us our original righteousness in his disobedience, if any were still as they were (able to NOT sin) there would be a good probability, statistically, that someone (maybe even half of the world) would have remained sinless without any need for grace. Unfortunately our representative in the garden failed the test, putting us into the situation in which we are ALL in. Thus the need for Christ, so that by His works some are made righteous again.

Of course you disagree Doug. Adam didn't lose anything for you. Adam's disobedience was Adam's disobedience; your disobedience is your disobedience. Blaming Adam for your unrighteousness is your avoidance of taking responsibility for your own shortcomings. Are you going to blame Adam at the judgment?

Are you telling us that you are unable to NOT sin? Are you unable to NOT lie to us on this forum? Did you ever tell the truth before you were saved? It's amazing of all the excuses I see on this forum. No one wants to take responsibility for themselves.

Adam was NOT a representative for anyone; you won't find that anywhere in the Bible. It a convenient tactic which you think gives credence to your belief. IT DOESN'T! It shows much shallowness and dishonor to God's word.

You are in your situation because of YOU! That's it. It your doing and your fault. Maybe you should take up Flip Wilson's famous line and modify it a bit. - 'Adam made me do it. Adam made me do it.

Since this is such a major component of your belief, you would think Jesus would have mentioned it at least once. But guess what? HE DIDN'T! You have made a mountain out of a grain of nothing.

 

[EmSw]

There is nothing in scripture that says Adam and Eve were created in a probationary period, so where did you get that from?

Adam and Eve were made “very good” by God’s standard, so why were they not created perfect like Christ is perfect?

The Bible did not call it a fall, so I do not call it a fall.

Where again in scripture does it talk about this “sinful nature” (some kind of different nature) coming upon Adam and Eve only after they sinned and where does it say this “nature” was passed down to all humans?

You are correct bling. There is nothing of a probationary period; who would make up such a thing?

And, nothing is said of Adam's fall, except this passage -

Genesis 2:21
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.

What we do see is what James described, being tempted and drawn away by one's own desires.

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

It is temptation, being drawn away by one's desires, and this desire being conceived by which sin is born. This was the same for Adam as it is for us today.

There is no need to make up fabrications about Adam when we have the truth in our hands.

 

[GillDouglas]

There is nothing in scripture that says Adam and Eve were created in a probationary period, so where did you get that from?

Adam and Eve were made “very good” by God’s standard, so why were they not created perfect like Christ is perfect?

There is no comparison between Adam/Eve and Christ. Adam and Eve were created, and because they sinned they were not perfect. Christ has always existed eternally with God, and He was begotten of the Spirit made fully man and yet fully God. Unlike Adam and Eve (or us) Christ, because of His deity, was incapable of sinning. Christ's perfection has allowed for the atonement of Adam's (and ours) imperfection.

The Bible did not call it a fall, so I do not call it a fall.

Where again in scripture does it talk about this “sinful nature” (some kind of different nature) coming upon Adam and Eve only after they sinned and where does it say this “nature” was passed down to all humans?

"Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

 

[GillDouglas]

Of course you disagree Doug. Adam didn't lose anything for you. Adam's disobedience was Adam's disobedience; your disobedience is your disobedience. Blaming Adam for your unrighteousness is your avoidance of taking responsibility for your own shortcomings. Are you going to blame Adam at the judgment?

In the book of Genesis we learn that through Adam's we 'earned' the results. The teachings of the Old Testament and the studying of the law has shed light on the understanding of men's sinful nature, and where it originates. Adam and Eve were not created with it, they caused it. I do not put blame on their actions for my actions, and I take responsibility for my disobedience.

Are you telling us that you are unable to NOT sin? Are you unable to NOT lie to us on this forum? Did you ever tell the truth before you were saved? It's amazing of all the excuses I see on this forum. No one wants to take responsibility for themselves.

Before I was converted, I was unable to NOT sin because I was led only by my sinful nature. That is not the case for me now, I am able to NOT sin because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, I am not longer a slave to the sinful nature. If I do sin, it is because I have chosen to be disobedient and when the Spirit presses upon me to recognize it I must take responsibility!

Adam was NOT a representative for anyone; you won't find that anywhere in the Bible. It a convenient tactic which you think gives credence to your belief. IT DOESN'T! It shows much shallowness and dishonor to God's word.

You are wrong. It is the truth, not a tactic. You should consider reading the Apostle chosen by Jesus Himself, that you adamantly reject.

You are in your situation because of YOU! That's it. It your doing and your fault. Maybe you should take up Flip Wilson's famous line and modify it a bit. - 'Adam made me do it. Adam made me do it

You are correct, I am where I am in my life because of me. At the same time, I am exactly where God wants me to be. I do not use Adam as an excuse for my life.

Since this is such a major component of your belief, you would think Jesus would have mentioned it at least once. But guess what? HE DIDN'T! You have made a mountain out of a grain of nothing.

Jesus is the Word, and the Word says "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pang together until now." (Romans 8:20-22)

 

[EmSw]

In the book of Genesis we learn that through Adam's we 'earned' the results. The teachings of the Old Testament and the studying of the law has shed light on the understanding of men's sinful nature, and where it originates. Adam and Eve were not created with it, they caused it. I do not put blame on their actions for my actions, and I take responsibility for my disobedience.

Earned what results? No one earns anything through another man's actions. And where in Genesis do you get this?

Doug, I am sorry, absolutely nothing in the law, nor the OT, say anything about a 'sinful nature' and where it originates. You have to go way out of bounds to prove your beliefs. Why not forget Adam and all the fabrications made about him? Moses, the prophets, nor Jesus say anything about Adam and his supposed 'sinful nature'. NOTHING!

Before I was converted, I was unable to NOT sin because I was led only by my sinful nature. That is not the case for me now, I am able to NOT sin because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, I am not longer a slave to the sinful nature. If I do sin, it is because I have chosen to be disobedient and when the Spirit presses upon me to recognize it I must take responsibility!

Are you telling us, before conversion, you were unable to tell the truth? you were unable to love your father and mother? you were unable to keep from stealing? you were unable to keep from lying? Doug, Doug, get a grip on reality. Look what your doctrine has you believing. How many people have you murdered? Wow, has your doctrine driven you mad?

You are wrong. It is the truth, not a tactic. You should consider reading the Apostle chosen by Jesus Himself, that you adamantly reject.

This so-called chosen apostle has driven you to insanity. Why aren't you in prison, since you didn't have the ability to keep from murdering? Why do you not have a sexual disease, since you didn't have the ability to keep from sexual sins? At what age did you learn you didn't have the ability to keep from sexual thoughts and sins?

Now, answer me this - did those who were with Paul on the road to Damascus hear a voice or did they not?

You are correct, I am where I am in my life because of me. At the same time, I am exactly where God wants me to be. I do not use Adam as an excuse for my life.

Then don't use Adam for your sinful nature.

Jesus is the Word, and the Word says "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pang together until now." (Romans 8:20-22)

Jesus is not a liar. Not everything in the Bible is the word of God. If you answered my question above, you will find someone told a lie, and this is not at all Jesus, Who is the Word!

 

[bling]

There is no comparison between Adam/Eve and Christ. Adam and Eve were created, and because they sinned they were not perfect. Christ has always existed eternally with God, and He was begotten of the Spirit made fully man and yet fully God. Unlike Adam and Eve (or us) Christ, because of His deity, was incapable of sinning. Christ's perfection has allowed for the atonement of Adam's (and ours) imperfection.

Where they “perfect” before they sinned?

Could God have created clones of Jesus and if not why not? And if not what other things can God not do as it relates to man?

"Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

Adam and Eve were the first people to sin, but that does not mean they brought some change to man’s nature.

Death did come with the first sin, but is death bad in and of itself?

This verse also brings up one very important point “….so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.” We all die because we all sin and it does not say we die because Adam and Eve sinned.

 

[Grandpa2390]

I unequivocally affirm the Sovereignty of God. I love the fact that God is Sovereign. However, in conjunction with this truth lies somewhere the responsibility of man. A.W. Pink tries to answer in his book "The Sovereignty of God." I like Pink, but do not think he answered fully. Perhaps it is something man cannot fully understand. I would like to discuss these following questions as asked by Pink in His chapter on Sovereignty and Human Responsibility:


"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility?

It's a paradox, one only God can understand. The Bible is full of them. The Triune Nature of God, the Duality of Christ, Prayer, the inspiration of the Word, etc.

I've listened to John MacArthur's sermon about it, and he just flat out tells you
this. It's a paradox. One that you have to accept. because as @DarthNeo says, the Bible says both, and anyone who tells you they have the answer... We have to accept both because the Bible teaches both.

Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do?

You mean how can a sinner be held responsible for not doing what he is unable to do?
The answer is that no matter what, we are all still guilty. and the sinner still chooses to reject God. We accept God because God gives us that ability. but just because God did not choose that person, doesn't mean that person is still not responsible for their sin.

Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them? Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation?"

God never decrees that men shall commit certain sins. I am not sure where you got that idea. We sin by virtue of our sin nature. (not going to argue about where we received that nature. But we have it, and it was not decreed by God. We were not created to be sinners) not because god commands us to.

 

[GillDouglas]

Earned what results? No one earns anything through another man's actions. And where in Genesis do you get this?

God has always dealt with mankind as whole. All of His covenant and providential dealings with mankind has been through a representative of a group or the whole race, Adam is no exception. That is why we must earn our bread by the sweat of our brows, and our wives must endure the pains of childbirth.

Doug, I am sorry, absolutely nothing in the law, nor the OT, say anything about a 'sinful nature' and where it originates. You have to go way out of bounds to prove your beliefs. Why not forget Adam and all the fabrications made about him? Moses, the prophets, nor Jesus say anything about Adam and his supposed 'sinful nature'. NOTHING!

The nature of the penalty that Adam earned us is evident from its infliction. Adam and Eve were created with a perfect union with God, and their souls were perfect and eternal. With God's favor forfeited, the consequences being the spiritual death of the soul, a new nature of misery and unending sinfulness corrupted them. Christ does not merely deliver the body from the grave, he saves the soul from eternal death.

Are you telling us, before conversion, you were unable to tell the truth? you were unable to love your father and mother? you were unable to keep from stealing? you were unable to keep from lying? Doug, Doug, get a grip on reality. Look what your doctrine has you believing. How many people have you murdered? Wow, has your doctrine driven you mad?

Of all people you should know the banner standard in which our 'goodness' is to be judged. The ultimate standard for goodness by which we shall all be judged is the law of God. The law reflects the perfect character of God, and by that standard there is NO WAY I would ever be considered good. To even suggest that someone, especially an unbeliever, has the ability to achieve such a level of goodness in character, reflects a inept understanding of the basics of Scripture.

This so-called chosen apostle has driven you to insanity. Why aren't you in prison, since you didn't have the ability to keep from murdering? Why do you not have a sexual disease, since you didn't have the ability to keep from sexual sins? At what age did you learn you didn't have the ability to keep from sexual thoughts and sins?

Now, answer me this - did those who were with Paul on the road to Damascus hear a voice or did they not?

Your line of questioning and constant badgering of my character is not only unnecessary but does not help in our conversation. For you to reject the Bible as a whole, and to reject the primary Apostle of the Gentiles puts me in a situation where I cannot have a legitimate biblical discussion about this topic.

Do you know why Paul's conversion story was repeated about 3 or 4 times? Because even the other apostles rejected him at first, because of how cruelly he persecuted the early Church. But God turned him into a tool in order to instruct the early churches, and you are the only person I know that continues to reject him. If you reject him, than you reject the One who appointed him.

Jesus is not a liar. Not everything in the Bible is the word of God. If you answered my question above, you will find someone told a lie, and this is not at all Jesus, Who is the Word!

There are at least 10 books of the Bible that you would have to disregard. We can no longer have any honest discussions since we have different views of the Bible.

 

[EmSw]

God has always dealt with mankind as whole. All of His covenant and providential dealings with mankind has been through a representative of a group or the whole race, Adam is no exception. That is why we must earn our bread by the sweat of our brows, and our wives must endure the pains of childbirth.

God deals with each person individually. He does not deal with you as He deals with me. He does not deal with you and me the way He dealt with Adam and Eve. God does not curse the ground because of what you and I do. He does not worsen childbirth because of what your wife does.

Now, if you want to say you and I are affected in any way by Adam, why not agree with the word and say we 'earn our bread' by the sweat of our brows? Why not say women must endure the pains of childbirth because of Eve? God did not say He 'cursed' mankind with a sinful nature because of Adam.

The nature of the penalty that Adam earned us is evident from its infliction. Adam and Eve were created with a perfect union with God, and their souls were perfect and eternal. With God's favor forfeited, the consequences being the spiritual death of the soul, a new nature of misery and unending sinfulness corrupted them. Christ does not merely deliver the body from the grave, he saves the soul from eternal death.

Adam did not earn anyone any penalty of death.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

Let's be honest Doug, it is the soul who sins who will die, not because of the sin of Adam. Our souls are not created by a physical union of a man and a woman. Nothing is passed from soul to soul. The reason Adam and Eve's souls were perfect and eternal is that they are created by God Himself, the same as you and me.

Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, and the souls which I have made.

Jeremiah 38:16
So Zedekiah the king swore secretly to Jeremiah, saying, “as the Lord lives, who made our very souls, I will not put you to death, nor will I give you into the hand of these men who seek your life.”

God did not forfeit any favor with man because of Adam, with the consequence being death of the soul. This is not even hinted in the Bible. This belief is the result of a faulty foundation. Once you know the soul is responsible for its own sin, and not Adam's, you will see God does not create anything cursed.

Of all people you should know the banner standard in which our 'goodness' is to be judged. The ultimate standard for goodness by which we shall all be judged is the law of God. The law reflects the perfect character of God, and by that standard there is NO WAY I would ever be considered good. To even suggest that someone, especially an unbeliever, has the ability to achieve such a level of goodness in character, reflects a inept understanding of the basics of Scripture.

I do know the standard Doug. God plainly tells us -

Ezekiel 18
5 But if a man is just and does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains, nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, nor defiled his neighbor’s wife, nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone, but has restored to the debtor his pledge; has robbed no one by violence,
but has given his bread to the hungry and covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury nor taken any increase, but has withdrawn his hand from iniquity and executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfully—he is just; he shall surely live!” says the Lord God.

This is summed up in Jesus' words, you shall love the Lord your God, and your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said, 'do this and live', just as verse 9 tells us.

As far as doing good, I could give you many verses, but I will start with these two -

Psalm37:3
Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness.

Psalm 37:27
Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell forevermore.

Do you trust in the Lord, Doug? Do you feed on His faithfulness? Then why can't you do good also?

Can you depart from evil? Then why can't you do good also?

If God created your soul and calls it good, why can't any man do good?

Your line of questioning and constant badgering of my character is not only unnecessary but does not help in our conversation. For you to reject the Bible as a whole, and to reject the primary Apostle of the Gentiles puts me in a situation where I cannot have a legitimate biblical discussion about this topic.

If Paul is that important to you, then please go your way and live your life. However, if you put any importance on the written words of God, then I ask you to have a civil conversation. Ezekiel 18 should put to rest the controversy of Paul's teachings on Adam. However, you try to fit the OT into what Paul taught, when you should judge Paul's words by the written words of God.

Do you know why Paul's conversion story was repeated about 3 or 4 times? Because even the other apostles rejected him at first, because of how cruelly he persecuted the early Church. But God turned him into a tool in order to instruct the early churches, and you are the only person I know that continues to reject him. If you reject him, than you reject the One who appointed him.

Then Paul should have gotten the story correct each time he told it. However, we do see he lied in one of his stories - either the men with him heard a voice or they didn't.

No, no, no Doug, I am not rejecting the Lord when I don't put Paul on an apostolic pedestal. No need to make any accusations as such. It seems you want to put Paul on the same level as Jesus. I don't. Sorry if that offends you, but Paul is not needed for salvation, sanctification, nor to enter the kingdom of God.

There are at least 10 books of the Bible that you would have to disregard. We can no longer have any honest discussions since we have different views of the Bible.

Do you think anyone can be saved with just the words of Jesus? Do they need Paul's words to add to salvation? What can Paul add to Jesus' words to make salvation a reality? I don't need predestination, adoption, theory of Adam's sin, and salvation without works (all of Paul's teachings) to be saved. Jesus has the words of truth, and as such, I will believe Him wholeheartedly.

If you can't have an honest discussion with someone who puts all their faith in Jesus' words of truth, then I bid you farewell and good luck.

p.s. One reason the Reformed can't take and believe Jesus' words only, is that their whole belief system would mightily fall and crash into flames. So, I understand why Paul is so important to you and your colleagues, and if someone even dare to question Paul, you all want to take a critical stand against that person.

I would like to give you this challenge Doug, if you dare.

Just take the book of Matthew and tell us how a man is saved. Since Jesus is the Savior, the Truth, the Way, and the Life, surely you can find salvation, truth, and life in His words in the book of Matthew.

 

[GillDouglas]

God deals with each person individually. He does not deal with you as He deals with me. He does not deal with you and me the way He dealt with Adam and Eve. God does not curse the ground because of what you and I do. He does not worsen childbirth because of what your wife does.

Now, if you want to say you and I are affected in any way by Adam, why not agree with the word and say we 'earn our bread' by the sweat of our brows? Why not say women must endure the pains of childbirth because of Eve? God did not say He 'cursed' mankind with a sinful nature because of Adam.

Adam acted representatively for us. As believing Christians, we now share vicariously in the righteousness of the '2nd Adam' (Christ) as an atonement for our vicarious participation in unrighteousness of the first Adam. By the work of Christ we are (1) made spiritually anew by the Holy Spirit, uniting His people in Christ and (2) redeemed of our sins.

Adam did not earn anyone any penalty of death.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

Let's be honest Doug, it is the soul who sins who will die, not because of the sin of Adam. Our souls are not created by a physical union of a man and a woman. Nothing is passed from soul to soul. The reason Adam and Eve's souls were perfect and eternal is that they are created by God Himself, the same as you and me.

Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, and the souls which I have made.

Jeremiah 38:16
So Zedekiah the king swore secretly to Jeremiah, saying, “as the Lord lives, who made our very souls, I will not put you to death, nor will I give you into the hand of these men who seek your life.”

God did not forfeit any favor with man because of Adam, with the consequence being death of the soul. This is not even hinted in the Bible. This belief is the result of a faulty foundation. Once you know the soul is responsible for its own sin, and not Adam's, you will see God does not create anything cursed.

I do know the standard Doug. God plainly tells us -

Ezekiel 18
5 But if a man is just and does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains, nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, nor defiled his neighbor’s wife, nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone, but has restored to the debtor his pledge; has robbed no one by violence,
but has given his bread to the hungry and covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury nor taken any increase, but has withdrawn his hand from iniquity and executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfully—he is just; he shall surely live!” says the Lord God.

This is summed up in Jesus' words, you shall love the Lord your God, and your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said, 'do this and live', just as verse 9 tells us.

As far as doing good, I could give you many verses, but I will start with these two -

Psalm37:3
Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness.

Psalm 37:27
Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell forevermore.

Do you trust in the Lord, Doug? Do you feed on His faithfulness? Then why can't you do good also?

Can you depart from evil? Then why can't you do good also?

If God created your soul and calls it good, why can't any man do good?

The Bible is a long story of God's covenant relationships with mankind. God promised grace to Adam, and later to the patriarchs , and revealed types of grace in the Law of Moses, and of course it is fully manifested in Christ.

Adam's failure in the garden made salvation no longer available through the first covenant of works (Adam's obedience). God establishes the covenant with Moses as representative, yet while still under the first covenant of works (repeated to Noah). Moses was given the law that his people had to follow in order to be righteous. Unfortunately, like Adam, Israel had failed to keep the law of God with perfect obedience time and time again.

This is absolutely why we need Christ! While we still remain under the covenant of works, we are also under the covenant of grace having been fulfilled by Christ! We may confront the obligations of keeping the law as best we can through the sanctifying grace of our Lord.

I would like to give you this challenge Doug, if you dare.

Just take the book of Matthew and tell us how a man is saved. Since Jesus is the Savior, the Truth, the Way, and the Life, surely you can find salvation, truth, and life in His words in the book of Matthew.

In just one Book, you want me to explain the sovereign grace of God and the redemption of sinners? I could sum it up in one word "Grace", but I'll try to expound upon my understanding of the 1st Gospel.

The book of Matthew speaks of what a true Christian should look like: forgiving, loving, and an ever growing hater of sin. If the forgiveness that we received at the cost of the blood of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is so ineffective in our hearts that we are bent on holding unforgiving and unloving bitterness against someone, we are not saved. We don’t cherish this forgiveness of Christ. We don’t trust in this works of Christ. We are hypocrites. We are just saying the words, because that's what 'Christians' do. We are still left in the sinful nature that guides our every word and thought (Matthew 15:18-19).

Yet despite men's sinful ways we see Jesus on numerous occasions throughout His ministry with a willingness to forgive and welcome sinners among Him, and there is no greater evidence of this than His work on the Cross. It is there that Jesus humbly serves us to the uttermost, willingly giving his life for sinners (Matthew 20:28). It is profoundly comforting to know we have a King whose heart is stirred with affection for us, though wretched sinners that we are, being “gentle and lowly in heart” (Matthew 11:29).

 

[EmSw]

Adam acted representatively for us. As believing Christians, we now share vicariously in the righteousness of the '2nd Adam' (Christ) as an atonement for our vicarious participation in unrighteousness of the first Adam. By the work of Christ we are (1) made spiritually anew by the Holy Spirit, uniting His people in Christ and (2) redeemed of our sins.

Adam did not act as a representative for us. This is a man-made doctrine and you know it. Come on Doug, I expect better things of you.

As far as sharing in the righteousness of Christ, we do not find anything of the sort from Jesus Himself. Who would know better, Jesus or Paul? Jesus didn't say anything about 'His' cross, but instead, He told us to take up OUR OWN cross.

The Bible is a long story of God's covenant relationships with mankind. God promised grace to Adam, and later to the patriarchs , and revealed types of grace in the Law of Moses, and of course it is fully manifested in Christ.

Why not read how people received the grace of God in the OT? They had to find and obtain grace in God's sight. It wasn't automatically given to them. It was given to those who humbled themselves (Proverbs 3:34), the same as the NT (James 4:6). God has not changed in any way concerning grace.

Adam's failure in the garden made salvation no longer available through the first covenant of works (Adam's obedience). God establishes the covenant with Moses as representative, yet while still under the first covenant of works (repeated to Noah). Moses was given the law that his people had to follow in order to be righteous. Unfortunately, like Adam, Israel had failed to keep the law of God with perfect obedience time and time again.

Let's not use 'perfect' again, okay Doug? It's red herring the Reformed love to use. I hope that is cleared up.

Where in the world do you get all these things about Adam? You appear to be a good fiction writer; you could sucker many people to believe what you write.

God actually established the covenant with Moses as a way leading to life. Was anyone from the OT saved? Or, did everyone under the law perish?

This is absolutely why we need Christ! While we still remain under the covenant of works, we are also under the covenant of grace having been fulfilled by Christ! We may confront the obligations of keeping the law as best we can through the sanctifying grace of our Lord.

The OT saints didn't need fulfillment by Christ to be saved, now did they? Perhaps you think Noah, Moses, David and the prophets weren't saved. Why weren't the OT saints not under a covenant of grace? You need to read the OT to actually see that grace was present in the OT.

In just one Book, you want me to explain the sovereign grace of God and the redemption of sinners? I could sum it up in one word "Grace", but I'll try to expound upon my understanding of the 1st Gospel.

Yes, please explain the salvation Jesus gave us in Matthew. Did you know Jesus never mentioned grace once? And yet, it is the foundation of your salvation. Why is that? Why do you put so much emphasis on something Jesus never mentioned?

The book of Matthew speaks of what a true Christian should look like: forgiving, loving, and an ever growing hater of sin. If the forgiveness that we received at the cost of the blood of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is so ineffective in our hearts that we are bent on holding unforgiving and unloving bitterness against someone, we are not saved. We don’t cherish this forgiveness of Christ. We don’t trust in this works of Christ. We are hypocrites. We are just saying the words, because that's what 'Christians' do. We are still left in the sinful nature that guides our every word and thought (Matthew 15:18-19).

So, you do believe in a saved person doing something. Amazing what one learns when the truth comes out.

Yet despite men's sinful ways we see Jesus on numerous occasions throughout His ministry with a willingness to forgive and welcome sinners among Him, and there is no greater evidence of this than His work on the Cross. It is there that Jesus humbly serves us to the uttermost, willingly giving his life for sinners (Matthew 20:28). It is profoundly comforting to know we have a King whose heart is stirred with affection for us, though wretched sinners that we are, being “gentle and lowly in heart” (Matthew 11:29).

Doug, Jesus forgave and welcomed sinners without the cross. Why do you keep wanting to include the cross, which Jesus never mentioned?

I also noticed you made no mention of your doctrine based upon Paul's writings. And without Paul, your belief system falls down the drain, and becomes nothing. What do you say?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Before I was converted, I was unable to NOT sin because I was led only by my sinful nature. That is not the case for me now, I am able to NOT sin because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, I am not longer a slave to the sinful nature. If I do sin, it is because I have chosen to be disobedient and when the Spirit presses upon me to recognize it I must take responsibility!

Unbelievers certainly have the ability to 'not sin.' If they did not, how could they ever do anything good or obey the law of God written on their hearts at times? (Matt 5:46-47, I Cor 5:1, Rom 2:14-15, etc.) How could any secular society set, or follow, good laws at all? They can't be without sin, but that's a different trait.

While I can't remember much before I was saved, since I was a Christian by 3-4, I can't imagine I had no ability whatsoever to love my mom or obey my dad in any fashion before I was saved. My own daughter is 15 months old, and while she certainly has the sin nature we all are born with and often seeks her own selfish ends, still has the ability to 'do right' and not sin as well. At the moment, she is playing with one of her toys by my feet - not getting into things she is not supposed to, throwing a tantrum, or any of the countless other things she could be doing that might serve her desires more. Interestingly enough, I can always tell when she is getting tired as she will suddenly start doing everything she knows she is not supposed to do - showing that as she gets sleepy her control over her desires lessens.

Unbelievers are "slaves to sin" just as believers are "Slaves to righteousness." Unbelievers serve the flesh and its desires, believers serve Christ and crucify the desires of the flesh as they walk by the spirit. Yet believers sometimes do what they know they ought not (Rom 7:14-25), and unbelievers sometimes get it right.

The difference is in who we serve. Do we serve the flesh and its desires, which only reaps corruption, or do we serve the Spirit which brings life?

 

[GillDouglas]

Unbelievers are "slaves to sin" just as believers are "Slaves to righteousness." Unbelievers serve the flesh and its desires, believers serve Christ and crucify the desires of the flesh as they walk by the spirit. Yet believers sometimes do what they know they ought not (Rom 7:14-25), and unbelievers sometimes get it right.

The difference is in who we serve. Do we serve the flesh and its desires, which only reaps corruption, or do we serve the Spirit which brings life?

You'll have to elaborate on "unbelievers sometimes get it right". Get what right? By who's standards?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

You'll have to elaborate on "unbelievers sometimes get it right". Get what right? By who's standards?

By God's standards:

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. This "will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Rom 2:12-16


No one can be perfect or without sin. No one can achieve perfect righteousness by their own works, will, or power. That doesn't mean that unbelievers can never do right, never hit the mark instead of sin, or that if tempted must give in. Scripture is full of examples of fallen men who nonetheless chose the right at certain points:

Isa 44:28, Isa 45:13, Lk 10:33-37, Num 23:1-12, Dan 3:28-29, Acts 10:1-4, Matt 9:11, II Chron 12:12, I Kings 21:29, Jonah 3:5-10, etc.

The speculation that unbelievers can't 'not sin' makes little sense. Does every unbeliever rape/murder/rob every person they meet? Does every action an unbeliever makes involve legal or moral law-breaking?

 

[GillDouglas]

The speculation that unbelievers can't 'not sin' makes little sense. Does every unbeliever rape/murder/rob every person they meet? Does every action an unbeliever makes involve legal or moral law-breaking?

I don't believe we're on the same page concerning an unbeliever's nature. Can an apple tree produce anything other than an apple? No. Neither can a unbeliever who's nature is to produce sin. Every single thought, word, and deed is tainted by the unbeliever's nature and absolutely nothing produced can be counted as righteousness to God. It doesn't have to hurt (rape/murder/rob) someone to be considered an offense to God.

The thing separating a believer from the unbeliever is the ability to produce something other than sin through the sanctifying grace of God and guiding work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[EmSw]

I don't believe we're on the same page concerning an unbeliever's nature. Can an apple tree produce anything other than an apple? No. Neither can a unbeliever who's nature is to produce sin. Every single thought, word, and deed is tainted by the unbeliever's nature and absolutely nothing produced can be counted as righteousness to God. It doesn't have to hurt (rape/murder/rob) someone to be considered an offense to God.

Ah, but Doug, can an apple produce good fruit and bad fruit? Ever seen or eaten a bad apple? Good and bad apples can come from the same tree. It's the nature of the apple tree.

Now, the nature of man is to produce something, if you are wanting to compare man to trees. Just as an apple tree can produce good and bad fruit, so man can produce good or bad fruit (works).

Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 7
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Even Jesus gave the example above. It's the same tree, producing fruit, either good or bad. You don't make it another kind of tree to get good fruit. What do you do to get good fruit? Fortunately, Jesus gave us the answer.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

So how do you get good fruit? YOU MAKE THE TREE GOOD. You don't change the nature of an apple tree to another kind of tree. You make that same tree which produces bad fruit, into a good tree. Then Jesus goes on to say this in chapter 12 -

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

So you see Doug, it's not a nature problem, it's a heart problem. It's man nature to produce fruit, just as it is the apple tree's nature. To get good fruit, you need a good heart. Jesus also said this -

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

It's the things which come from the heart which defiles man, not his nature. Evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, thefts...etc. do not come from man's nature; they come from his heart.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

The pure in heart will see God, and James tells the sinners to purify their hearts. What is put into man's heart to purify it and bring forth good fruit?

Luke 8
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Do you see Doug, it is the word of God planted in an honest and good heart, having heard the word of God and keep it, which will bring forth (good) fruit with patience.

The thing separating a believer from the unbeliever is the ability to produce something other than sin through the sanctifying grace of God and guiding work of the Holy Spirit.

It's not ability which separates a believer from an unbeliever. It's having the word of God planted in a good and honest heart, hearing it, and keeping it (see parable above).

And in case you are wondering how a man purifies and gets a good and honest heart, just look at Ezekiel 18:31.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?