God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility

Jennifer Rothnie

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I don't believe we're on the same page concerning an unbeliever's nature. Can an apple tree produce anything other than an apple? No. Neither can a unbeliever who's nature is to produce sin. Every single thought, word, and deed is tainted by the unbeliever's nature and absolutely nothing produced can be counted as righteousness to God. It doesn't have to hurt (rape/murder/rob) someone to be considered an offense to God.

The thing separating a believer from the unbeliever is the ability to produce something other than sin through the sanctifying grace of God and guiding work of the Holy Spirit.

God counted many acts by unbelievers as right or pleasing in scripture (a very different concept than someone actually being counted as fully justified before God,) and so acted on those people with favor or by withholding judgment:

"The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live....The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.” So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own." Ex 1:15-21 (Not, 'nice try midwives, but you are just too tainted by sin to truly fear me.')

"Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son." I Kings 21:49 (Not 'nice try Ahab, you are the most wicked king who has ever lived, so I don't recognize your humility as good.')

"At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly...The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God." Acts 10:1-4 (Not, 'nice try Cornelius, but your prayers and generosity are mere refuse to God')

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Rom 2:13-16 (Not, 'nice try Gentiles, but it's just tainted obedience and you can't ever do anything required by the law at all.')

""But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he had compassion on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”" Lk 10:33-37
(Not, 'silly Samaritan, doesn't he know his compassion is tainted and no one should imitate such a sinner?')

"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!” Matt 7:9-11 (Not, 'you evil people, you can't give anything good to your children until you have a regenerated heart.')

Etc.

Now, if one starts with the Calvinist theory of 'Total Depravity' as a truthful axiom and tries to discuss God's sovereignty from there, I could see why you might think that God had to pre-regenerate certain individuals or do something outside of the work of the cross to make them capable of believing the gospel was true. After all, if man truly is so tainted he cannot respond to the gospel in faith as is, and the work of the cross and presentation of the gospel is insufficient to overcome that, so no one has the ability to have faith at all, then the next logical step would be that that inability would need to be overcome by something else, such as regeneration by the spirit prior to faith or another method of making some capable of faith.

Yet those premises are flawed, as scripture never makes the claim that man is unable to respond in faith, that the work of Christ was insufficient to draw all things to Himself, that no one can respond to the Spirit's general conviction, that the gospel is insufficient testimony of truth to convince fallen man, that man is incapable of any good thought or act whatsoever, etc.

If the premises are flawed, the conclusion will be flawed. Total Depravity' is also known as 'Total Inability', is one of the teachings of Calvinism or the Reformed tradition. It forms the 'T' of the acronym T.U.L.I.P. It attempts to explain the depths and repercussions of the fallen, sinful state of man, and in many ways is the philosophical foundation which the other four points rest on.

'Total Depravity' starts with the premises that all men sin without exception (Rom 3:10-23); that sin corrupts every aspect of our being, such as flesh, heart, mind, etc, (Mark 7:21-23); and that man cannot save himself (Psalm 60:10-12, Is 63:5-6).

On these points, all of Christianity agrees. The theory continues from that base, however.

'Total Depravity' further claims that man is so tainted by sin that he cannot accept the offer of Christ’s salvation and so receive Christ's deliverance from sin.

However, that premise does not seem to be supported by scripture. Firstly, scripture asks us to believe: Rom 10:9-13, John 3:14-21, Luke 11:5-13, Heb 11:13-16, Gal 3:24, Deut 30:11-14, etc. - an odd command if we cannot possibly do so. Similarly, Jesus says that He knocks, and He will come to any who 'open the door' to receive Him (Rev 3:20).

Secondly, scripture presents Jesus' sacrifice and gift of the Holy Spirit to the world as all sufficient for man to come to faith, not in need of 'something else' that God has not made available to man.

For example, "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (Jn 20:31) and "the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith" (Rom 1:17) show that God has given scripture and the evidence of miracles to give evidence of Christ. "He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8) shows that one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is convicting the world of sin. "I will draw all people to myself" (Jn 12:32) shows that Christ, by His death, was lifted up before the world as their Saviour, and by that revelation and influence all men are drawn to Him. "Faith comes by hearing" (Rom 10:17) shows that the gospel is a further grace God gives to all who hear it, presenting the person and work of Christ to them.

Based on the premise of man being so tainted he could never accept Christ, even with all the general graces of scripture and the Holy Spirit's conviction, etc., the theory then draws the conclusion that 'something further' must occur in the life of certain chosen people.

Calvinists vary on what this 'something further' is. For some, it is the extreme of actual spiritual regeneration, being 'born again' and given a new heart, so that one can afterward have faith. This version has the most difficulty squaring with scripture, for scripture states we receive the spirit, are made new creations, etc., only after we place our faith in Christ - never before: Gal 3:2-3, Gal 3:10-14, Eph 1:11-14, II Cor 5:17, etc.

For others, the 'something further' is less extreme, an unveiling of the eyes and heart by the Spirit, that in combination with the Calvinist theory of irresistible grace, perfectly proves Christ to the person and compels them to have faith, with no option for them to reject the gospel.

This version is less problematic since scripture does mention a few people whose hearts were opened to the gospel by God upon hearing it. Tabitha, for example (Acts 16:14).

However, 'how' God opens the heart/eyes in these cases was through the gospel message, not through a special, extra act by the Holy Spirit that only some receive. The gospel reveals the righteousness of Christ to all (Rom 1:17.) In the case of the two men from Emmaus, for example, their hearts 'were kindled within them' just by Jesus sharing the fulfillment of scripture. (Luke 24:31-32)

In short,'Total Depravity' is built on many extra-biblical premises and philosophical assumptions that are not supported by, and even contradict, scripture. As such, it is not a good to take it as an axiom of truth before discussing the sovereignty of God.
 
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GillDouglas

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God counted many acts by unbelievers as right or pleasing in scripture (a very different concept than someone actually being counted as fully justified before God,) and so acted on those people with favor or by withholding judgment:

"The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live....The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.” So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own." Ex 1:15-21 (Not, 'nice try midwives, but you are just too tainted by sin to truly fear me.')

"Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son." I Kings 21:49 (Not 'nice try Ahab, you are the most wicked king who has ever lived, so I don't recognize your humility as good.')

"At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly...The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God." Acts 10:1-4 (Not, 'nice try Cornelius, but your prayers and generosity are mere refuse to God')

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Rom 2:13-16 (Not, 'nice try Gentiles, but it's just tainted obedience and you can't ever do anything required by the law at all.')

""But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he had compassion on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”" Lk 10:33-37
(Not, 'silly Samaritan, doesn't he know his compassion is tainted and no one should imitate such a sinner?')

"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!” Matt 7:9-11 (Not, 'you evil people, you can't give anything good to your children until you have a regenerated heart.')

Etc.

Now, if one starts with the Calvinist theory of 'Total Depravity' as a truthful axiom and tries to discuss God's sovereignty from there, I could see why you might think that God had to pre-regenerate certain individuals or do something outside of the work of the cross to make them capable of believing the gospel was true. After all, if man truly is so tainted he cannot respond to the gospel in faith as is, and the work of the cross and presentation of the gospel is insufficient to overcome that, so no one has the ability to have faith at all, then the next logical step would be that that inability would need to be overcome by something else, such as regeneration by the spirit prior to faith or another method of making some capable of faith.

Yet those premises are flawed, as scripture never makes the claim that man is unable to respond in faith, that the work of Christ was insufficient to draw all things to Himself, that no one can respond to the Spirit's general conviction, that the gospel is insufficient testimony of truth to convince fallen man, that man is incapable of any good thought or act whatsoever, etc.

If the premises are flawed, the conclusion will be flawed. Total Depravity' is also known as 'Total Inability', is one of the teachings of Calvinism or the Reformed tradition. It forms the 'T' of the acronym T.U.L.I.P. It attempts to explain the depths and repercussions of the fallen, sinful state of man, and in many ways is the philosophical foundation which the other four points rest on.

'Total Depravity' starts with the premises that all men sin without exception (Rom 3:10-23); that sin corrupts every aspect of our being, such as flesh, heart, mind, etc, (Mark 7:21-23); and that man cannot save himself (Psalm 60:10-12, Is 63:5-6).

On these points, all of Christianity agrees. The theory continues from that base, however.

'Total Depravity' further claims that man is so tainted by sin that he cannot accept the offer of Christ’s salvation and so receive Christ's deliverance from sin.

However, that premise does not seem to be supported by scripture. Firstly, scripture asks us to believe: Rom 10:9-13, John 3:14-21, Luke 11:5-13, Heb 11:13-16, Gal 3:24, Deut 30:11-14, etc. - an odd command if we cannot possibly do so. Similarly, Jesus says that He knocks, and He will come to any who 'open the door' to receive Him (Rev 3:20).

Secondly, scripture presents Jesus' sacrifice and gift of the Holy Spirit to the world as all sufficient for man to come to faith, not in need of 'something else' that God has not made available to man.

For example, "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (Jn 20:31) and "the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith" (Rom 1:17) show that God has given scripture and the evidence of miracles to give evidence of Christ. "He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8) shows that one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is convicting the world of sin. "I will draw all people to myself" (Jn 12:32) shows that Christ, by His death, was lifted up before the world as their Saviour, and by that revelation and influence all men are drawn to Him. "Faith comes by hearing" (Rom 10:17) shows that the gospel is a further grace God gives to all who hear it, presenting the person and work of Christ to them.

Based on the premise of man being so tainted he could never accept Christ, even with all the general graces of scripture and the Holy Spirit's conviction, etc., the theory then draws the conclusion that 'something further' must occur in the life of certain chosen people.

Calvinists vary on what this 'something further' is. For some, it is the extreme of actual spiritual regeneration, being 'born again' and given a new heart, so that one can afterward have faith. This version has the most difficulty squaring with scripture, for scripture states we receive the spirit, are made new creations, etc., only after we place our faith in Christ - never before: Gal 3:2-3, Gal 3:10-14, Eph 1:11-14, II Cor 5:17, etc.

For others, the 'something further' is less extreme, an unveiling of the eyes and heart by the Spirit, that in combination with the Calvinist theory of irresistible grace, perfectly proves Christ to the person and compels them to have faith, with no option for them to reject the gospel.

This version is less problematic since scripture does mention a few people whose hearts were opened to the gospel by God upon hearing it. Tabitha, for example (Acts 16:14).

However, 'how' God opens the heart/eyes in these cases was through the gospel message, not through a special, extra act by the Holy Spirit that only some receive. The gospel reveals the righteousness of Christ to all (Rom 1:17.) In the case of the two men from Emmaus, for example, their hearts 'were kindled within them' just by Jesus sharing the fulfillment of scripture. (Luke 24:31-32)

In short,'Total Depravity' is built on many extra-biblical premises and philosophical assumptions that are not supported by, and even contradict, scripture. As such, it is not a good to take it as an axiom of truth before discussing the sovereignty of God.
Jesus said "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:4-5)
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Jesus said "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:4-5)

Jesus is speaking about the development of spirtitual fruit in the life of the believe. Fruit isn't individual 'actions' or thoughts, but traits. Love-joy-patience-peace-kindness-goodness-faithfulness-gentleness-self-control (Gal 5:22), or goodness; knowledge; self-control; perseverance; devoutness; mutual affection; love (II Pet 1:3-11).

We cannot develop the fruit of the spirit outside of Christ. We might be able to cultivate a general morality/virtue that affects our interactions with the world, but we can't have true spiritual growth.

Jesus isn't saying that outside of Christ one can't ever have a single moral thought or action - that would be extrapolating far beyond the text as well as contradicting other scriptures which show some unbelievers having correct thoughts, mentalities, or actions at times. Again, individual actions/thoughts are not the same as the spiritual fruits (traits) that develop in a Christian.
 
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sdowney717

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Jesus is speaking about the development of spirtitual fruit in the life of the believe. Fruit isn't individual 'actions' or thoughts, but traits. Love-joy-patience-peace-kindness-goodness-faithfulness-gentleness-self-control (Gal 5:22), or goodness; knowledge; self-control; perseverance; devoutness; mutual affection; love (II Pet 1:3-11).

We cannot develop the fruit of the spirit outside of Christ. We might be able to cultivate a general morality/virtue that affects our interactions with the world, but we can't have true spiritual growth.

Jesus isn't saying that outside of Christ one can't ever have a single moral thought or action - that would be extrapolating far beyond the text as well as contradicting other scriptures which show some unbelievers having correct thoughts, mentalities, or actions at times. Again, individual actions/thoughts are not the same as the spiritual fruits (traits) that develop in a Christian.

Np doubt Ninevah repented, and God relented, but still nineveh was overthrown in the next generation.
That does not imply those who repented are in heaven. We do not know.

Jesus said make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for a tree is known by its fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. So yeah, there must occur a fundamental transformation, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you do not bear good fruit, then your destiny is to be thrown into the fire and burned. People by their nature bear either good or bad fruit, fact is a person ether bears good fruit or bad fruit, they do not bear both good and bad fruit. Those born of God will bear good fruit, not bad fruit. Fruit here is what is spoken out from the heart of a person. For we are His workmanship. God makes the tree, so that it bears fruits by its nature.

Matthew 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matthew 12:33 [ A Tree Known by Its Fruit ] “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Luke 6:43 [ A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit ] “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.
 
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EmSw

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If you do not bear good fruit, then your destiny is to be thrown into the fire and burned. People by their nature bear either good or bad fruit, fact is a person ether bears good fruit or bad fruit, they do not bear both good and bad fruit. Those born of God will bear good fruit, not bad fruit. Fruit here is what is spoken out from the heart of a person. For we are His workmanship. God makes the tree, so that it bears fruits by its nature.

I'm gonna play the Reformed game with you sdowney.

Let me ask you, do bear fruit perfectly?

Since God has ordained you to walk in good works, do you do this perfectly?
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Np doubt Ninevah repented, and God relented, but still nineveh was overthrown in the next generation.
That does not imply those who repented are in heaven. We do not know.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make by this. Certainly, no one gets into heaven by doing one good thing, or even a million good things. One would have to be perfectly sinless for their entire life - an impossibility - to not be a condemned lawbreaker.

However, your original contention was that no unbeliever could do anything good or think anything good, at all, without being regenerated by the Spirit as they were just too tainted by sin to do so. If you admit they repented, then you admit that they did something good. If that repentance was 'tainted' - such as they were merely faking or only doing it to save their own skins, would God have counted it as genuine repentance and temporarily turned away from His promised judgment?

Jesus said make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for a tree is known by its fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. So yeah, there must occur a fundamental transformation, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Again, you are speaking about an entirely different topic. 'Entering the kingdom of heaven' is not the equivalent of 'saying or thinking or doing anything good.' If an unbeliever did something good it would not make them born again, which is Jesus' point. Nicodemus was the 'best of the best' as far as it came to good works and religious piety, but it wasn't enough. He needed both a spiritual transformation (comes with getting the Holy Spirit after you believe) and a literal spiritual body (given at the Ressurection to believers) to enter the Kingdom of God - works would never suffice. One can only enter that kingdom through faith in Christ.

If you do not bear good fruit, then your destiny is to be thrown into the fire and burned. People by their nature bear either good or bad fruit, fact is a person ether bears good fruit or bad fruit, they do not bear both good and bad fruit. Those born of God will bear good fruit, not bad fruit. Fruit here is what is spoken out from the heart of a person. For we are His workmanship. God makes the tree, so that it bears fruits by its nature.

Matthew 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matthew 12:33 [ A Tree Known by Its Fruit ] “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Luke 6:43 [ A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit ] “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.

Note that Jesus does not deny categorically that the Pharisees say some good things: Matt 23:1-3. His argument is not that they are incapable of saying anything good, but that their hearts are actually evil, and so their words that accuse Jesus of speaking by the power of Satan are coming from those evil motives and not from a genuine place of warning the people or from the influence of God.

Back to an earlier point, however, none of these fruit analogies that scripture uses say that the unbeliever is incapable of any single good thought or action, or contradict the many scriptures already presented which show unbelievers doing some good things. Consider Jame's admonition in James 3:9-12 that Christians should *not* both curse men and praise God. It's not that we are 'incapable' of such sin, or that if we do we lose our Christianity, but rather that cursing men has no place in a Christian's life, since we would become like springs that produce both salt and fresh water, or a fig tree bearing olives. Christians can sin - we shouldn't, but we often do. Unbelievers can do good things - it can't save them, but they sometimes do.

If it helps, think of the good things unbelievers do as nice leaves and not actual fruit. (Matt 21:19) It can 'dress up' the tree, but doesn't have any eternal spiritual benefit or lead to any spiritual growth.

We 'add' fruit to our faith as we walk in relationship with Christ (II Pet 1:3-11.) We enter the vine, which allows us to produce fruit, by faith (Rom 11:20) We do not need to have any fruit before we enter the vine in faith, nor do we need to be 'changed' in the type of tree we are previously to being grafted in. It is the new vine which then changes our nature and helps us to bear good fruit (Rom 11:13-24, Jn 15:4-5.)

"But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ, the promise might be given to those who believe." Gal 3:22 The control of sin doesn't -prevent- an unbeliever from coming to faith, but rather is specifically for the purpose that those who turn to Christ by faith will be given the promises! "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:26 It is not required for us to become a born-again child of God before we can have faith. Quite the opposite! We become born again, spiritual children of God only through faith.
 
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Marvin Knox

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"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility? Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do? And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do? Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them? Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation?"
I'm sure there will be Hell to pay (humanly speaking) for my answer here.

But I believe the answer lies in the concept (so far as we are able to understand these things - which is only very darkly) of the concurrent actions of God and His creation.

Everything God does is "good". That's a given.

But some of the good God does He does through evil. We see it all through scriptures.

God did good through the evil actions of Joseph's brothers.

Chiaphas spoke evil and it was God prophesying through those evil words.

God did good through the evil actions of those who killed Jesus.

On and on it goes.

But I believe it goes deeper than a few examples could do justice to.

We live and move and have or being in God.

We were created by the Word of God, throught the Word of God, and in the Word of God we have our being.

God has sent forth His Word and His Word is accomlishing everything the Father has sent Him forth to do --- namely everything that happens bar nothing.

As John said - "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25

Rather than an overstatment - I consider that to be the biggest understatment in all the universe.

What appears to us from this perspective to be only evil - is in fact good from the perspective of God.

Just to go out on the limb fully here -- someone will say that if it is the case that God is somehow doing everything through us (even the evil which He will righteously judge) then God is "guilty" of evil.

Not true of course.

But probably that is a normal thought for anyone who has come up against the absolute sovereignty of God, His predestination of everything that happens in His creation, and His providential involment in the smalles detail of those things (even evil things).

All I can say is that if He is willing to take the full wrath due evil upon Himself (and He is and has) - I am completely comfortable with Him providing a good answer for this mystery when we see Him face to face. (Provided, of course, that He chooses to provide those answers. He's not obligated to do so.)

Of couse for most the way out of the dilema is to simply deny God sovereign control over everything that happens. We see it here all the time don't we?
 
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sdowney717

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I'm sure there will be Hell to pay (humanly speaking) for my answer here.

But I believe the answer lies in the concept (so far as we are able to understand these things - which is only very darkly) of the concurrent actions of God and His creation.

Everything God does is "good". That's a given.

But some of the good God does He does through evil. We see it all through scriptures.

God did good through the evil actions of Joseph's brothers.

Chiaphas spoke evil and it was God prophesying through those evil words.

God did good through the evil actions of those who killed Jesus.

On and on it goes.

But I believe it goes deeper than a few examples could do justice to.

We live and move and have or being in God.

We were created by the Word of God, throught the Word of God, and in the Word of God we have our being.

God has sent forth His Word and His Word is accomlishing everything the Father has sent Him forth to do --- namely everything that happens bar nothing.

As John said - "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25

Rather than an overstatment - I consider that to be the biggest understatment in all the universe.

What appears to us from this perspective to be only evil - is in fact good from the perspective of God.

Just to go out on the limb fully here -- someone will say that if it is the case that God is somehow doing everything through us (even the evil which He will righteously judge) then God is "guilty" of evil.

Not true of course.

But probably that is a normal thought for anyone who has come up against the absolute sovereignty of God, His predestination of everything that happens in His creation, and His providential involment in the smalles detail of those things (even evil things).

All I can say is that if He is willing to take the full wrath due evil upon Himself (and He is and has) - I am completely comfortable with Him providing a good answer for this mystery when we see Him face to face. (Provided, of course, that He chooses to provide those answers. He's not obligated to do so.)

Of couse for most the way out of the dilema is to simply deny God sovereign control over everything
that happens. We see it here all the time don't we?

Isaiah 45:7 speaks of that.

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
ASV
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
AMP
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.
AMPC
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
BRG
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
CSB
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
CEB
I form light and create darkness, make prosperity and create doom; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
CJB
I form light, I create darkness; I make well-being, I create woe; I, Adonai, do all these things.
 
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sdowney717

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That verse is prefaced by these words from God in Isaiah 45
God actually says, that they may know is none besides Him, God who does all these things.
God brings calamity for sin.

For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
 
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sdowney717

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2 Chronicles 15:4-721st Century King James Version (KJ21)

4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the Lord God of Israel and sought Him, He was found by them.

5 And in those times there was no peace to him that went out nor to him that came in, but great vexations were upon all the inhabitants of the countries.

6 And nation was destroyed by nation, and city by city; for God vexed them with all adversity.

7 Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak; for your work shall be rewarded.”


KJ21
And nation was destroyed by nation, and city by city; for God vexed them with all adversity.
ASV
And they were broken in pieces, nation against nation, and city against city; for God did vex them with all adversity.
AMP
Nation was crushed by nation, and city by city, for God troubled them with every kind of distress.
AMPC
Nation was broke in pieces against nation, and city against city, for God vexed and troubled them with all sorts of adversity.
BRG
And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity.
CSB
Nation was crushed by nation and city by city, for God troubled them with every possible distress.
CEB
Nation was crushed by nation and city by city, as God troubled them with every kind of problem.
CJB
so that they were shattered to pieces, nation against nation and city against city, as God troubled them with every kind of distress.
CEV
Nations were destroying each other, and cities were wiping out other cities, because God was causing trouble and unrest everywhere.
 
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sdowney717

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I'm gonna play the Reformed game with you sdowney.

Let me ask you, do bear fruit perfectly?

Since God has ordained you to walk in good works, do you do this perfectly?

I don't produce 'bad fruit'. Good fruit is not good works.
Jesus words can not be laid aside here. Good trees bear good fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.
Fruit is what is spoken out from the heart, for out from the heart the mouth speaks.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Matthew 10:20
for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Those who speak evil of scripture, Christ and God, are bearing bad fruit.
If your not pure in heart, you won't be seeing God, meaning also living with Him.
Those who are pure in heart are those God has regenerated, they have a clean heart, create a clean heart in me is what the psalmist prayed.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

Matthew 12:34
Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

John 15
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
 
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sdowney717

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Jesus here tells us that fruit is what comes out from the heart spoken by the mouth. If you speak against the Holy Spirit you are a bad tree bearing bad fruit and your destiny is to be burned in the fire.
Here in context you can see that beginning in v31, Jesus relates v32 to bad fruit which is spoken out from heart.
In this case the pharisees were bearing bad fruit. Attributing the power of casting out of these demons to Satanic power used by Christ, instead of the Holy Spirit of God.

Matthew 12
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

Matthew 12
The Unpardonable Sin

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

So your fruit is what you say, or what you type into a computer, or what you would write, it is what you communicate about God, Christ, Holy Spirit to others.
Someone who bears bad fruit, also wont be doing good works beforehand ordained by God for them to do. Good works are of benefit to man, not to God.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Isaiah 45:7 speaks of that.

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
ASV
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
AMP
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.
AMPC
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
BRG
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
CSB
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
CEB
I form light and create darkness, make prosperity and create doom; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
CJB
I form light, I create darkness; I make well-being, I create woe; I, Adonai, do all these things.
I fully understand the dilema that those who see what the scriptures teach about the absolute sovereignty of God in all things come up against. Really I do.

But the way to work your way through the dilema to a satisfactory conclusion is not to simply ignore verses you don't like or even "invent" a God whom you can be comfortable with.

It is, instead, to believe and teach what the scriptures teach in spite of there being difficult things that come up because of it. Then and only then is one able to begin to work it all out.

I fear the former method is exactly what non sovereignty types have done. They believe in a God who is transcendent. But they fail to believe that He is also immanent.

I've always maintained that one would "almost" have to worship a different God to reject most of the solid Reformed doctrines as I see the majority of the church doing today.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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I'm sure there will be Hell to pay (humanly speaking) for my answer here.

But I believe the answer lies in the concept (so far as we are able to understand these things - which is only very darkly) of the concurrent actions of God and His creation.

Everything God does is "good". That's a given.

But some of the good God does He does through evil. We see it all through scriptures.

God did good through the evil actions of Joseph's brothers.

Chiaphas spoke evil and it was God prophesying through those evil words.

God did good through the evil actions of those who killed Jesus.

On and on it goes.

But I believe it goes deeper than a few examples could do justice to.

We live and move and have or being in God.

We were created by the Word of God, throught the Word of God, and in the Word of God we have our being.

God has sent forth His Word and His Word is accomlishing everything the Father has sent Him forth to do --- namely everything that happens bar nothing.

As John said - "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25

Rather than an overstatment - I consider that to be the biggest understatment in all the universe.

What appears to us from this perspective to be only evil - is in fact good from the perspective of God.

Just to go out on the limb fully here -- someone will say that if it is the case that God is somehow doing everything through us (even the evil which He will righteously judge) then God is "guilty" of evil.

Not true of course.

But probably that is a normal thought for anyone who has come up against the absolute sovereignty of God, His predestination of everything that happens in His creation, and His providential involvement in the smalles detail of those things (even evil things).

All I can say is that if He is willing to take the full wrath due evil upon Himself (and He is and has) - I am completely comfortable with Him providing a good answer for this mystery when we see Him face to face. (Provided, of course, that He chooses to provide those answers. He's not obligated to do so.)

Of couse for most the way out of the dilema is to simply deny God sovereign control over everything that happens. We see it here all the time don't we?

God works even the evil actions of man to His good purpose. That is a far, far different thing from God being a causal factor of any kind in every evil intention and action of man.

"They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;" Jer 19:5

"Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." James 3:13-15

Sin has its origin only in the desires and lusts of man, and not in the will or mind of God.

There are times when God's plan does take evil into account, knows an evil will occur, and as such God might deliberately harden an already sinful heart (by not giving the conviction of the Spirit) or might allow Satan or demons to have influence over someone who is already enslaved to sin. That again is quite different from God directly controlling or causing evil Himself.

The larger issue leads again back to what it means for God to be a truly all-powerful sovereign of the universe and all mankind.

Does sovereignty mean He must push around every molecule and create every fluctuating quantum particle directly? No, quite the opposite! God is such a powerful sovereign that His very *word* keeps the laws of nature that He ordered in place. He has no need to 'micromanage,' for nature cannot go beyond the limits He predestined.

Does sovereignty mean that He must directly cause every thought and action of man? No! It means He has the power to judge and condemn those who violate His commands and has the power to show mercy as He wills. He has no need to be the causal factor in every thought and action, for thoughts and actions that violate His expressed will fall under His sovereign jurisdiction to punish and pardon.

See:
Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?
Does God allow moral evil?
How does God's sovereignty and mankind's free will work together in salvation?
How does God's sovereignty work together with free will?
 
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GillDouglas

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Does sovereignty mean He must push around every molecule and create every fluctuating quantum particle directly? No, quite the opposite! God is such a powerful sovereign that His very *word* keeps the laws of nature that He ordered in place. He has no need to 'micromanage,' for nature cannot go beyond the limits He predestined.

Does sovereignty mean that He must directly cause every thought and action of man? No! It means He has the power to judge and condemn those who violate His commands and has the power to show mercy as He wills. He has no need to be the causal factor in every thought and action, for thoughts and actions that violate His expressed will fall under His sovereign jurisdiction to punish and pardon.
What if a rogue molecule, or a decision of man derails God's plans? If things are left to chance/luck/circumstance, then God no longer reigns. Chance/luck/circumstance becomes God.
 
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EmSw

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What if a rogue molecule, or a decision of man derails God's plans? If things are left to chance/luck/circumstance, then God no longer reigns. Chance/luck/circumstance becomes God.

Are you saying there is nothing 'rogue' in this world?

What if God commands us to keep His commandments, are you saying man can't choose to derail God's plan? I see plenty of people on this forum who say they can't keep His commandments.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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What if a rogue molecule, or a decision of man derails God's plans? If things are left to chance/luck/circumstance, then God no longer reigns. Chance/luck/circumstance becomes God.


How could there be a rogue molecule, since every particle and atom is bound by the laws of nature that God set? As such, there are a finite number of possibilities for the motions, actions, generation and interaction of, etc. all particles - not infinite possibilities.

Consider the following verse:

"And I said, 'Thus far you may come in, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop."

Note that God is not pushing and sculpting each and every individual wave for eternity. Rather, he set boundaries for the sea. The sea can only come so far. Its movement is limited according to the laws of physics and fluid dynamics that God set and the boundaries that He placed. Again, there are only finite possibilities for the movement of any wave. (Not only this, but God can supersede the laws He set as needed or wanted, such as when Jesus calmed the Sea of Galilee by His word (Mk 4:41.) The wind and sea obey not just the initial rules God set, but any later commands God gives as well.)

How could there be an unplanned or unknown decision of man, since man is limited in his capabilities and God is omniscient, seeing the end from the beginning? Even though man, unlike nature, can disobey God - he still is bound by the limitations of his flesh. Again, there are only a finite number of paths a man can take. Not only that, God is outside of time and so knows all the actions and thoughts we will take or could potentially take throughout our lives. He is able to interact - indeed to plan interaction from the beginning, to ensure that a specific event happens when needed at the precise time in history. This can be on a large scale - miracles, signs, wonders, acts of judgement, etc. or on a small scale, such as influencing the heart or counsel of a specific player in world events.

Sir Francis Boardman has an excellent sermon, "Nature a Pledge of Grace" that dives into these concepts in detail. God's command over nature and its inability to go outside the boundaries God set is a testament to God's sovereignty, power, and character. God's ability to plan for countless (though finite) variables is a mark of His supremacy over the limited intellect of man. The actions of nature and man are hardly a hurdle to the sovereignty of God - rather they promote it.

Take the word 'predestine.' In English, some people see the term 'destiny' and think the term must mean a pre-bounding to only one option, to one destiny, or to one fate. Yet the term itself simply means 'pre-horizon' in the Greek, that is, to pre-limit or to mark out beforehand. It has no connotation of one specific destiny of itself, but rather a limitation due to boundaries.

Predestination deals with God’s omnipotence and omniscience. The word itself means to “to mark out beforehand’; to pre-establish limits and boundaries. Specifically, this word references how God set limits/boundaries/laws upon everything before creation. He set the laws of physics, placed the boundaries of the sea, determined the eternal plan by which mankind would be saved, (Prov 8:22-31, Eph 1:3-10, Eph 3:10-11, Job 38:33, Rom 8:29, etc), set the rules by which deliverance and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25), etc.

Are we predestined to know Christ?
How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?
How does predestination work as described by scripture?
 
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sdowney717

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How could there be a rogue molecule, since every particle and atom is bound by the laws of nature that God set? As such, there are a finite number of possibilities for the motions, actions, generation and interaction of, etc. all particles - not infinite possibilities.

Consider the following verse:

"And I said, 'Thus far you may come in, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop."

Note that God is not pushing and sculpting each and every individual wave for eternity. Rather, he set boundaries for the sea. The sea can only come so far. Its movement is limited according to the laws of physics and fluid dynamics that God set and the boundaries that He placed. Again, there are only finite possibilities for the movement of any wave. (Not only this, but God can supersede the laws He set as needed or wanted, such as when Jesus calmed the Sea of Galilee by His word (Mk 4:41.) The wind and sea obey not just the initial rules God set, but any later commands God gives as well.)

How could there be an unplanned or unknown decision of man, since man is limited in his capabilities and God is omniscient, seeing the end from the beginning? Even though man, unlike nature, can disobey God - he still is bound by the limitations of his flesh. Again, there are only a finite number of paths a man can take. Not only that, God is outside of time and so knows all the actions and thoughts we will take or could potentially take throughout our lives. He is able to interact - indeed to plan interaction from the beginning, to ensure that a specific event happens when needed at the precise time in history. This can be on a large scale - miracles, signs, wonders, acts of judgement, etc. or on a small scale, such as influencing the heart or counsel of a specific player in world events.

Sir Francis Boardman has an excellent sermon, "Nature a Pledge of Grace" that dives into these concepts in detail. God's command over nature and its inability to go outside the boundaries God set is a testament to God's sovereignty, power, and character. God's ability to plan for countless (though finite) variables is a mark of His supremacy over the limited intellect of man. The actions of nature and man are hardly a hurdle to the sovereignty of God - rather they promote it.

Take the word 'predestine.' In English, some people see the term 'destiny' and think the term must mean a pre-bounding to only one option, to one destiny, or to one fate. Yet the term itself simply means 'pre-horizon' in the Greek, that is, to pre-limit or to mark out beforehand. It has no connotation of one specific destiny of itself, but rather a limitation due to boundaries.

Predestination deals with God’s omnipotence and omniscience. The word itself means to “to mark out beforehand’; to pre-establish limits and boundaries. Specifically, this word references how God set limits/boundaries/laws upon everything before creation. He set the laws of physics, placed the boundaries of the sea, determined the eternal plan by which mankind would be saved, (Prov 8:22-31, Eph 1:3-10, Eph 3:10-11, Job 38:33, Rom 8:29, etc), set the rules by which deliverance and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25), etc.

Are we predestined to know Christ?
How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?
How does predestination work as described by scripture?

John 12, shows most jews were predestined not to believe in Christ.

Who Has Believed Our Report?
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.


And Paul describes the same thing in Romans 11. 'Just as it was written' shows God predestined this to occur, the elect would believe while the rest are blinded - hardened.

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
 
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Ron Gurley

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Back to basics!

OP: Q1:"God's Sovereignty
and

Q2: Man's "responsibility"

A:1 = God is SOVREIGN.
He created. He intervenes. He controls. He is perfectly all-everything.

BUT
His spiritual gift of "free will" was given to Mankind and angels to operate WITHIN this power.

Everyone...and...Everything... is "OF GOD"..."FROM GOD"..."SUBJECT TO" ...God.

Sovereignty of God: (all NASB)
His absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure,
(Daniel 4:25,35; Romans 9:15-23; 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 4:11).

1 Chronicles 29:12
“Both riches and honor come from You, and You RULE over all, and in Your hand is power and might; and
it lies in Your hand to make great and to strengthen everyone.

Lamentations 5:19
You, O LORD, RULE forever;
Your throne is from generation to generation.

Ephesians 1:21
...far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named,
not only in this age but also in the one to come.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Q2: Man's "responsibility"

A2A: The Spirit of God CALLS / DRAWS the spirit of EACH and ALL Men.

A2B: Man MUST exercise his spiritual gift of "free will" by "responding" thereto by:
1. ACCEPTING unto the SALVATION EVENT + SANCTIFICATION PROCESS into "heaven" (BELIEVER)
....OR...
2. REJECTING unto Eternal Separation from God in the "lake of fire" (UN-BELIEVER)

A2A: CALLS / DRAWS

Matthew 9:13 (all NASB)
But go and learn what this means:
‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’
for I did not come to CALL the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 22:14
For many are CALLED, but few are chosen.”

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who SENT (Deity!) Me DRAWS him;
and I will raise him up on the last day.

A2B:spiritually ACCEPT vs REJECT

Mankind CHOOSES whether they want to be "children of God"...or...NOT.

God spiritually calls/draws/knocks to ALL.
EACH Man's spirit must accept or reject.


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

1 Chronicles 28:9...KING David to wise son Solomon
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
If you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
BUT if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

John 3:36...John the Baptizer on Jesus: CHOOSE
1. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; (BELIEVER)
but
2.he who does not obey (TO BELIEVE IN!) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
(UN-BELIEVER)

John 1
11 He came to that which was His own (ISRAEL),
but His own did NOT receive Him.
12 Yet to all who DID receive him,
to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become "children of God" (SAVED)
— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but "born of God"
 
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