What Does Atheism Profit Atheists?

[Freodin]

That is why there are many churches / denominations.

You don't say!
Pick and choose, then?

 

[just a believing guy]

You don't say!
Pick and choose, then?

Why not? God created many kinds of fruit, and you can choose any kind you want.

 

[just a believing guy]

Hey, I alone own at least four Bibles. Inherited, gifted, pressed on me by missionaries.
And here I am... an atheist! Buying bibles, even by bulk, doesn't make you a believer. It isn't a gateway for or to God. Many current atheists will even tell you that it was reading the Bible was what crashed their former faith.


In that regard, you Christians are also outnumbered by a great deal. So what?

Picking and choosing the parts of the Bible you do not like, and applying them to your own ''beforehand'' agnosticism can lead you to dislike and disbelief God, yes. There are many who would like to own their own Bible (the Middle Eastern refugees, for example), so you can donate the surplus you have.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Simply labelling something fallacy doesn't make it so.

Long road to get there but finally, my point is made.

Then you're arguing from a position of unjustified arrogance or wilful dishonesty.

Simply labeling someone as such doesn't make it so.

Are we having "fun" yet?

 

[Freodin]

Picking and choosing the parts of the Bible you do not like, and applying them to your own ''beforehand'' agnosticism can lead you to dislike and disbelief God, yes.

You are not very consistent in your arguments, are you?

There are many who would like to own their own Bible (the Middle Eastern refugees, for example), so you can donate the surplus you have.

What kind of people would like to own their own Bible? People who believe that "owning" a Bible is something special. Christians. These people will go out and aquire Bibles. These people are told, sometimes urged, sometimes even required to own a Bible. Thus increasing sales of Bibles.
The Bible is a best-selling book because it is pushed... by humans. Not by any divine influence.

Middle Eastern non-Christian refugees are rather unlikely to want to have their own Bible. They are more interested in jobs, security, their family, getting to know their new surroundings. We have several Syrian refugees just a little across the street from where I live. I meet them regularely. Not one of them ever requested a Bible.

 

[The Times]

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[just a believing guy]

You are not very consistent in your arguments, are you?


What kind of people would like to own their own Bible? People who believe that "owning" a Bible is something special. Christians. These people will go out and aquire Bibles. These people are told, sometimes urged, sometimes even required to own a Bible. Thus increasing sales of Bibles.
The Bible is a best-selling book because it is pushed... by humans. Not by any divine influence.

Middle Eastern non-Christian refugees are rather unlikely to want to have their own Bible. They are more interested in jobs, security, their family, getting to know their new surroundings. We have several Syrian refugees just a little across the street from where I live. I meet them regularely. Not one of them ever requested a Bible.

Why am I inconsistent? Because you are prone to read the Bible ''knowing'' beforehand that it is merely work of the human mind and nothing more? You should see the woods, not the trees.

Reading the Bible is indeed something special, especially when you get older (60+ years), and you don't know where to turn for advice. Yet, advice is needed to us, the younger generation, as well. So, you see, owning and reading the Bible may as well mean bridging the gap between the elderly and the younger people. It gives a sense of a universal, Christian ''family''.

I am sure that given time the next generations of the refugees will be more interested in Christianity.

 

[just a believing guy]

Your post seemed to indicate you feel atheists are irrational; "Apparently you think atheists are more irrational than I do."

Just curious what you base this on.

Atheists don't read the Bible nor they visit church. If we rightly consider that there is a gap between the elderly generation and the younger generation, that can only be bridged by something they share (the Bible), being an atheist makes no sence, since the gap remains there. Talking about religion, visiting the churches and temples is what makes the ''universal'' Christian family, something which is to my mind very necessary these days.

 

[Freodin]

Why am I inconsistent? Because you are prone to read the Bible ''knowing'' beforehand that it is merely work of the human mind and nothing more? You should see the woods, not the trees.

The "current atheists" I was referring to in my previous post do not include me. I have never been a Christian... but these were. They didn't start with the position that the Bible was the work of human mind and nothing more. They believed it was the divinely inspired word of God. And the read it and studied it and came to the realization: how can the divinely inspired word of God be so... shallow, contradicting, mean, boring, uninspiring, full of mistakes. And only then they came to the conclusion: it isn't the word of a divine being, but of human minds.

But your point would still be moot. If I read the Bible with the presupposition that it is the work of the human mind, and it fits within this category perfectly... why should I even assume that it is divine? I might be a little demanding in this regard... but I would expect the work of a divine being to be a lot better than the Bible.

Reading the Bible is indeed something special, especially when you get older (60+ years), and you don't know where to turn for advice. Yet, advice is needed to the younger generation as well. So, you see, owning and reading of the Bible may as well mean bridging the gap between the elderly and the younger people. It gives a sense of a universal, Christian ''family''.

See... and there you have given another perfect example why people promote the Bible. "Here, take it, read it. It will give you advice. It will promote unity! You must have one to belong, and it will help you with belonging."

It is pushed. And when it fails to deliver, when all this "just read it" leads to nothing... Christians will just turn to a new victim, a new generation and continue pushing their book.

I am sure that given time the next generations of the refugees will be more interested in Christianity.

Also knowing quite a number of "next generation" non Christians... I doubt it.

 

[Freodin]

Atheists don't read the Bible nor they visit church.

This is false. As I can confess from my own experience. I do read the Bible, and I did visit church. I have never been a believer, in any religion, but I have, based on the educational system of my country, a very specific religious education.

This trope of "atheists simply don't know what Christianity is about" is false, and just an excuse not to deal with the very real questions that atheists raise.

As I said - I have never been a Christian... but many, many (most) atheists around here have been. They lost their former faith because the couldn't find the answers they were looking for within it. For a faith that claims to have the ultimate answers, this is a damning result. And thus must be ignored by any means by its stout defenders.
But with every excuse you make - with every lie about atheists you tell - you just prove us right.

If we rightly consider that there is a gap between the elderly generation and the younger generation, that can only be bridged by something they share (the Bible), being an atheist makes no sence, since the gap remains there. Talking about religion, visiting the churches and temples is what makes the ''universal'' Christian family, something which is to my mind very necessary these days.

Which is why there are so many different churches and denominations, which very often hate each others guts. Christianity is always "universal" when someone tries to defend it against outsiders, but "just a chosen few" when it comes to internal disagreements.

 

[just a believing guy]

The "current atheists" I was referring to in my previous post do not include me. I have never been a Christian... but these were. They didn't start with the position that the Bible was the work of human mind and nothing more. They believed it was the divinely inspired word of God. And the read it and studied it and came to the realization: how can the divinely inspired word of God be so... shallow, contradicting, mean, boring, uninspiring, full of mistakes. And only then they came to the conclusion: it isn't the word of a divine being, but of human minds.

But your point would still be moot. If I read the Bible with the presupposition that it is the work of the human mind, and it fits within this category perfectly... why should I even assume that it is divine? I might be a little demanding in this regard... but I would expect the work of a divine being to be a lot better than the Bible.


See... and there you have given another perfect example why people promote the Bible. "Here, take it, read it. It will give you advice. It will promote unity! You must have one to belong, and it will help you with belonging."

It is pushed. And when it fails to deliver, when all this "just read it" leads to nothing... Christians will just turn to a new victim, a new generation and continue pushing their book.


Also knowing quite a number of "next generation" non Christians... I doubt it.

One thing you are failing to see: all the great works of the Renaissance etc. were inspired by this shallow and boring God as you call Him. Do you like the Renaissance works of art. Because if you as an atheist like them, that is the proof that God exists.
The same goes for all teh former Christians turned atheists.

It is more that just-read-it; it is about studying, consulting someone, praying. And the fruits will be there.

 

[just a believing guy]

This is false. As I can confess from my own experience. I do read the Bible, and I did visit church. I have never been a believer, in any religion, but I have, based on the educational system of my country, a very specific religious education.

This trope of "atheists simply don't know what Christianity is about" is false, and just an excuse not to deal with the very real questions that atheists raise.

As I said - I have never been a Christian... but many, many (most) atheists around here have been. They lost their former faith because the couldn't find the answers they were looking for within it. For a faith that claims to have the ultimate answers, this is a damning result. And thus must be ignored by any means by its stout defenders.
But with every excuse you make - with every lie about atheists you tell - you just prove us right.


Which is why there are so many different churches and denominations, which very often hate each others guts. Christianity is always "universal" when someone tries to defend it against outsiders, but "just a chosen few" when it comes to internal disagreements.

If a law says that children or minors (-18 years) should visit the church, there is not much you can do. It is a law just like any other.
I have been on this forum for several months now, and no atheist has as yet risen any question about Christianity.

Have these former Christians said why they lost their faith in God? I am sure that there are many outreach programs which coul help.

They don't hate each other guts; it's just your shallow perception.

 

[quatona]

"Ha, you think atheists exist who believe that they have sufficient evidence to believe in God but nevertheless do not believe in him?"
No, I think there are atheists for whom "there isn´t sufficient evidence" isn´t the reason they are atheists. I myself, for example believe in some things for which I don´t have sufficient evidence (that´s why I say "believe").

Apparently you think atheists are more irrational than I do. ...
No, I think that with some atheists their atheism isn´t based on an appeal to logic and reason.
And, yes, I think there can be irrational atheists, just like there can be irrational people in every segment of the population. (Heck, there are even countless illogical arguments against God.).
The generalizing fallacious conclusion from "atheism isn´t necessarily a rational position/prompted by rational considerations" to "atheists are (...) irrational" however is, well, a very basic logical mistake.

For everyone who struggles with the definition of atheism. here´s a simple rule of thumb:
When they aren´t a theist, they are an atheist.

 

[Freodin]

One thing you are failing to see: all the great works of the Renaissance etc. were inspired by this shallow and boring God as you call Him. Do you like teh Renaissance works of art. Because if you as an atheist like them, that is the proof that God exists.

The same failing argument you used before... that God was mentioned in the American Revolution, that all modern music is derived from Gospel.

It simply is not true. None of that is proof of God. Not of that comes from God. All of that comes from human... and much of it indeed comes from humans who believed in God.

Much of "the great works of the Renaissance" deal not with God at all. Much of it deal with humans. Much of it is about "pagan" stuff. A lot of it was considered blasphemous by the contemporaries.

But here again you chose and pick. You take want agrees with you and ignore the rest.

The same goes for all teh former Christians turned atheists.

It is more that just-read-it; it is about studying, consulting someone, praying. And the fruits will be there.

Or not. You cannot accuse others of simply having done it wrong when you don't know what they did, or even explain how to do it right. Just pointing at "fruits" doesn't cut it.

 

[quatona]

I have been on this forum for several months now, and no atheist has as yet risen any question about Christianity.

That´s because you keep creating threads about atheism and keep us busy correcting your misconceptions about it.
Also, when I have question about the theology, I will ask the experts.

 

[Freodin]

If a law says that children or minors (-18 years) should visit the church, there is not much you can do. It is a law just like any other.

The law in my country dictates that there has to be religious education. It doesn't specify which. What I got, I got by my own choice.

I have been on this forum for several months now, and no atheist has as yet risen any question about Christianity.

Most atheists are quite knowledgable about Christianity, many having been Christians themselves. There aren't many "questions about Christianity" of interest left for them.

Here I cannot speak for all the atheists here, or even a majority of them, but in my case, and in many cases that I have seen, most atheists here are more concerned with correcting the lies spread about them by well-meaning Christians - like you - than "learning about Christianity".

And considering the contracting answers they tend to get... it would be of not much use.

Have these former Christians said why they lost their faith in God? I am sure that there are many outreach programs which coul help.

How condescending! From what I have learned about many of these people, they haven't taken the loss of their faith easy. For many, this "oh, I don't need to take you serious. Just listen to this outreach program / read this apologetic book, ask this preacher" approach is exactly what pushed them over the edge.

They don't hate each other guts; it's just your shallow perception.

Yeah, certainly. That's why there is so much talk about the "fallen away churches", the "harlots of babylon", the "heretics", the "not true Christians", the "lukewarms"...

 

[just a believing guy]

The same failing argument you used before... that God was mentioned in the American Revolution, that all modern music is derived from Gospel.

It simply is not true. None of that is proof of God. Not of that comes from God. All of that comes from human... and much of it indeed comes from humans who believed in God.

Much of "the great works of the Renaissance" deal not with God at all. Much of it deal with humans. Much of it is about "pagan" stuff. A lot of it was considered blasphemous by the contemporaries.

But here again you chose and pick. You take want agrees with you and ignore the rest.


Or not. You cannot accuse others of simply having done it wrong when you don't know what they did, or even explain how to do it right. Just pointing at "fruits" doesn't cut it.

Rock, the basis of modern music is derived from Gospel. Are you going to dispute this?

The purpose of this thread is not proof of God, but what does atheism profit atheists.

You say ''it comes from humans who believed in God''. No, they believed in themselves because they believed that they were made in God's image.

The most distinguished art works of the Renaissance are about God. No honest person can deny this. It is just stunning how the faith in God can inspire a man!

The fruits will be there, all that is needed is carefull picking.

 

[Freodin]

Rock, the basis of modern music is derived from Gospel. Are you going to dispute this?

Rock isn't the basis of modern music. But it isn't solely derived from Gospel, but also contains major elements of Blues and Jazz... music styles not being based on any "Christian" source.

You say ''it comes from humans who believed in God''. No, they believed in themselves because they believed that they were made in God's image.

It still comes from humans.

The most distinguished art works of the Renaissance are about God. No honest person can deny this. It is just stunning how the faith in God can inspire a man!

The Mona Lisa? Botticelli's "Birth of Aphrodite"? Even Michelangelo's "David"?

Again, you pick and chose and ignore all that does not confirm with your views.

 

[just a believing guy]

The law in my country dictates that there has to be religious education. It doesn't specify which. What I got, I got by my own choice.


Most atheists are quite knowledgable about Christianity, many having been Christians themselves. There aren't many "questions about Christianity" of interest left for them.

Here I cannot speak for all the atheists here, or even a majority of them, but in my case, and in many cases that I have seen, most atheists here are more concerned with correcting the lies spread about them by well-meaning Christians - like you - than "learning about Christianity".

And considering the contracting answers they tend to get... it would be of not much use.


How condescending! From what I have learned about many of these people, they haven't taken the loss of their faith easy. For many, this "oh, I don't need to take you serious. Just listen to this outreach program / read this apologetic book, ask this preacher" approach is exactly what pushed them over the edge.


Yeah, certainly. That's why there is so much talk about the "fallen away churches", the "harlots of babylon", the "heretics", the "not true Christians", the "lukewarms"...

What you got, you got by the choice of your parents, who knew what was best for you.

I beg your pardon; all atheists are doing on this forum is being Monty Python characters...

Whom are you to ask about the faith if not the preacher / priest? I don't buy this ''over the edge'' point of yours. If they loved God with all their heart and their preacher as well, they would have been aware that no one is perfect; no one can take you to the place if you are not prepared to go there.

 

[just a believing guy]

That´s because you keep creating threads about atheism and keep us busy correcting your misconceptions about it.
Also, when I have question about the theology, I will ask the experts.

This shouldn't have stopped you, for example, as an atheist to present your questions about Christianity?