Taking the Bible "seriously"

yeshuaslavejeff

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I spent some time (not suggesting this to anyone if they can avoid it - unless they are as faithful as Desmond Doss)
in the military,
and do you know how many different directions everyone in one unit in boot camp came from ?

i.e. some believers, a lot of unbelievers, several each from a different upbringing , perhaps even opponents to some others present.

And do you know how many of us obeyed the CO(Commanding Officer)? (via the chain of command)

Oh, there were some who did not obey, or even one who was 'caught' that they signing up with fraudulent credentials,
and all those were booted out of boot camp without any recourse, nothing they could do about it. (and most of them wanted out anyway ! Once they found out what the military was really like (having been completely mislead by friends or recruiters) ) ...

Got this so far ? - many different ones all together "as one" in one unit, no matter where they came from or what their backround was....
 
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mkgal1

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I spent some time (not suggesting this to anyone if they can avoid it - unless they are as faithful as Desmond Doss)
in the military,
and do you know how many different directions everyone in one unit in boot camp came from ?

i.e. some believers, a lot of unbelievers, several each from a different upbringing , perhaps even opponents to some others present.

And do you know how many of us obeyed the CO(Commanding Officer)? (via the chain of command)

Oh, there were some who did not obey, or even one who was 'caught' that they signing up with fraudulent credentials,
and all those were booted out of boot camp without any recourse, nothing they could do about it. (and most of them wanted out anyway ! Once they found out what the military was really like (having been completely mislead by friends or recruiters) ) ...

Got this so far ? - many different ones all together "as one" in one unit, no matter where they came from or what their backround was....
So....are you inferring that the Body of Christ ought to be seen as similar to the military? A "follow the rules or you're out" sort of deal? The "unity" is forced externally by an authoritarian set of rules?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So....are you inferring that the Body of Christ ought to be seen as similar to the military? A "follow the rules or you're out" sort of deal? The "unity" is forced externally by an authoritarian set of rules?
Not at all...

Look again at a military unit,

or a classroom if you rather,

or a basketball team...

or 12 photographers out in the middle of the congo with one guide...

or a body - hands, feet, knees, legs, stomach, brain, fingers, toes

many parts but one body subject to one brain.... one mind...
 
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mkgal1

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many parts but one body subject to one brain.... one mind...
People that don't agree on the main "mission" or main goal aren't "one mind". Think of a body with an autoimmune disease---where it "attacks itself". That's probably a good example of a church with different ideas of what "being like Jesus" looks like.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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People that don't agree on the main "mission" or main goal aren't "one mind". Think of a body with an autoimmune disease---where it "attacks itself". That's probably a good example of a church with different ideas of what "being like Jesus" looks like.
Perhaps, and immune system may be a good illustration.

when the immuse system is functioning normal, there's no allergy, no disease, no headaches, and so no - the body is healthy, at rest and at work, stable, good reserve energy/ stamina and endurance....

Just like ekklesia when they are assembled together in Christ Jesus, working in union with Jesus, living in union with Jesus, following Jesus, looking to others like they are in union with Jesus (People remark watching from the outside - "they have been with God" and/or "Those are disciples of Jesus, see how much they love one another" ) .....
Even when an assembly has troubles like the assembly at Corinth ... they were / are still known as "those Jesus freaks" who love one another, and outsiders/ the poor in town, know they can go there for assistance ..... and they know the ekklesia there are not shysters or hypocrites or actors on the stage of life pretending to be good or better or anything fake....
 
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Paidiske

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Here's the dilemma as I see it (reflecting on the conversation here between jeff and mkgal).

It seems to me that there are, broadly speaking, three options.

1. When Christians disagree about a matter to the point of disunity (as we do about women's place and role), one group is "right" and the other "wrong;" and the wrong group should be abandoned/disregarded.

2. Both groups are partly right and partly wrong, and both groups require persistence from those within them and with one another, in order that both groups may grow into the fullness of truth.

3. Both groups, because of the disunity, are so impaired as to no longer be functioning as valid church (the people involved are "not really Christian."

If I have understood the discussion so far, mkgal is somewhere around 2, and jeff is holding to a position close to 3.

For me, 1 is a position we should avoid taking if at all possible. While I think there are some things which are completely beyond the pale as acceptable for Christianity, my own position is that the vast majority of Christians and churches fall into a situation where I can hold 2 to be true.

Therefore the appropriate stance for me to take with people with whom I disagree is one where I have the humility to admit I have more to learn and the need to grow, and a willingness to listen and seek to honour what we have in common, and a respect for the other person's genuine Christian commitment; and also the integrity to hold on to what is important in my understanding of the gospel and not surrender it simply to make other people happy. This path is costly but is, in my view, the best way forward for us for most disagreements.

What I find deeply unattractive about 3 is that it seems to denigrate anyone who isn't like me, and - apart from the lack of human relationship - that seems to me to express a lack of trust that God is at work in our human brokenness, redeeming and healing and leading us all as we grow closer to God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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People that don't agree on the main "mission" or main goal aren't "one mind". Think of a body with an autoimmune disease---where it "attacks itself". That's probably a good example of a church with different ideas of what "being like Jesus" looks like.
Right , so, do we seek a healthy body, or one with a messed up immune system ?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The point is--don't MOST people agree the "authority of the Bible"
No, I don't think so -
This is where the unity in congregations breaks down - they don't agree on the authority of the Bible, thus they also do not agree on the understanding of the Bible.

How did Jesus handle these differences in the disciples He called, those who followed Him ?
*Sometimes*. But often people have their own bias or beliefs that they read the text through--and no matter how strong the argument is--they aren't willing to give up their way of looking at things.

....but I was asking for you to clarify YOUR words--not anything else. This is what was too vague for me to offer any response on:
Jesus took all who the Father gave Him, and molded and shaped and shepherded and trained them to live as one serving YHWH, even in the rough generation they were brought up and lived in ....
 
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mkgal1

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Right , so, do we seek a healthy body, or one with a messed up immune system ?
Some are resistant to change---so they remain in a state of unhealth. Not everyone seeks truth....not everyone seeks health. It's just not that simple.
 
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mkgal1

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No, I don't think so -
This is where the unity in congregations breaks down - they don't agree on the authority of the Bible, thus they also do not agree on the understanding of the Bible.

How did Jesus handle these differences in the disciples He called, those who followed Him ?
When you snip my comments mid-sentence or between complete thoughts---your posts are completely detached from the conversation (IOW....you are having your own discussion).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Some are resistant to change---so they remain in a state of unhealth. Not everyone seeks truth....not everyone seeks health. It's just not that simple.
Actually you just stated it very simple -
not everyone seeks truth....
not everyone seeks health....
(in fact few ever do)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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YHWH'S WORD, the BIBLE , guarantees that whoever seeks the truth, and keeps seeking truth, will find it, and the truth will set them free.
Since YHWH'S WORD is true, and HE HIMSELF guards His Word to accomplish it (His Word Never Fails),
we can count on Him , and see it come to pass.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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....
and do you know how many different directions everyone in one unit in boot camp came from ?
- many different ones all together "as one" in one unit, no matter where they came from or what their backround was....
One unit, one purpose, one direction - from many different families, backrounds, religions, cultures....
and we/they still all learned to work together as one.
Most of them who joined did not even care about truth -
they just needed or wanted a job or the training,
but to get it (or keep it/ to stay) , we all had to learn to work as one.
 
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Chaplain David

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The Apostle Paul was a man who I think of as a great unifier. But certainly the Church was much smaller than it is today. It also seems more divided today but when you think about Paul visiting the various churches in the areas that he did, it might have seemed that way to Him as well.

One of the things that I like about our forum is that it allows us to grow in Christ yet is small enough for us to know others who are growing right along with us and see how most of us blossom in faith.

God bless everyone.
 
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Chaplain David

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My wife and I are looking for a church (again). I may be looking at this in a way too simplistic manner. But on their web pages they all sound great. Yet saying the right stuff doesn't always add up to doing the right stuff.

I think that rather than spending a lot of time on their webpage narratives, they should just link to a couple of their pastor's sermons. I believe that the sermons would show more about how the church might function and what parts of scripture are emphasized than any amount of "describing what their church is like."

I don't mean to ramble or get too OT, but trying to find a church home and new church family is IMO quite trying.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I don't mean to ramble or get too OT, but trying to find a church home and new church family is IMO quite trying.
This actually illustrates several of the points in this thread, and in line with the title also.
As God's Word say: seek MY KINGDOM, and keep seeking (even after found, so to speak), every day. We turn to God every day, dwell on Him / meditate on His Word/ all through the day and night , and are blessed as His Word says.
Web advertisements, and sermons, may not guide us to where God wants us at all, but may be misleading (strange as that might sound!).

What people DO, is so often in God's Word, is what is important, as we are called and instructed not just to hear "God's Sermon", but to DO it - to live His Word, trusting His Word all the time, and DOing what He Says DO. This is best seen in Scripture, of course, and obviously today as well, and is why it is so difficult searching for a group of believers >>>
doing the right stuff.

This may be many believer's desire, to do what is right, so we seek and keep on seeking out others who are "good company" instead of "bad company" that corrupts good morals. Something like that anyway.
 
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Paidiske

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I don't mean to ramble or get too OT, but trying to find a church home and new church family is IMO quite trying.

It certainly is. I've just been through the process (made that bit more complicated, of course, by the fact that it's also a new job...). My prayers for you as you work your way through the maze to the right place!
 
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Dave-W

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but trying to find a church home and new church family is IMO quite trying.
Indeed. DW and I went thru that for about a year. We have been at our new congregational home for about a year and a half.
 
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mkgal1

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My wife and I are looking for a church (again). I may be looking at this in a way too simplistic manner. But on their web pages they all sound great. Yet saying the right stuff doesn't always add up to doing the right stuff.

I think that rather than spending a lot of time on their webpage narratives, they should just link to a couple of their pastor's sermons. I believe that the sermons would show more about how the church might function and what parts of scripture are emphasized than any amount of "describing what their church is like."

I don't mean to ramble or get too OT, but trying to find a church home and new church family is IMO quite trying.
First of all....this isn't off topic at all---it is right on topic, actually.

If someone (or a church as a whole) is going to put a stake in the moral high ground and make the claim that they "take the Bible seriously" then I would expect that there's fruit in that. One thing I've began looking at is the "ministries" section of church web pages. There are a couple of ministries that, to me, demonstrate a church's priorities really well--they are "Family Promise" and "Stephens's Ministries".

Another issue that seems to set churches apart is how they deal with domestic abuse (human trafficking is separate, in my opinion, because that issue still allows for this distance...this belief that abuse happens "out there" and not actually within the church).
 
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mkgal1

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I will forever be impressed with how this pastor handled this situation where an associate pastor had an addiction to inappropriate contentography. He wasn't punitive.....he was restorative.

Article said:
[...]youth pastor, was downloading a inappropriate contentographic video on his computer at work when he had to leave it to go to the weekly pastoral staff prayer meeting.

While he was gone, his administrative assistant went into Ulven's office to use the computer and was shocked by what he saw.

The assistant, who had been on the job for only a couple of weeks, didn't confront Ulven, but did tell the Rev. Mark Krieger, Modesto Covenant's senior pastor.

A day or two later, when he was called into Krieger's office, Ulven downplayed the incident. After all, even his wife had caught just a glimpse of his secret life over the past 15 years, and the lies went deep.

The Covenant denomination put Ulven under "discipline" and took away his pastoral license. They said the family should attend a different church to protect those hurt by his addiction, a consequence that deeply affected Ulven's wife and children.

Local church leaders agreed on a plan: They would pay for an intensive four-day workshop in Tennessee on sexual addictions for the Ulvens and for counseling beyond that. They agreed to continue to pay Ulven's salary for three months.

Ulven said it was an offer full of grace, one he knew he didn't deserve.

"For the first time, I felt like this was a God thing, that getting caught was something God had initiated," Ulven said.

After the year, his church-sanctioned discipline was removed. He moved with his family to the Chicago area to enroll in North Park Seminary to complete his divinity degree.

The denomination allowed him to regain his pastoral license, Ulven said, because he never crossed the line into sexual abuse. "I never had touched anyone inappropriately or treated anyone inappropriately. If so, they would have still had me under discipline."

Addiction to inappropriate contentography created a barrier between Ulven and God. "I felt much shame," he said. "It's this weird irony that what we all want on our deepest level is to be loved and accepted just as we are. God offers that. But I didn't get that, and I turned to inappropriate contentography to feel better about myself by the acceptance of these fantasy women. It was driving a wedge between God and myself. It's strange that we take something good from God, sex, and twist it to make it something bad."

Ulven finished his seminary education in 2009 and signed on again with the Navy, this time as a chaplain. He's living in Maryland and stationed at a Coast Guard facility.

His experiences have helped him advise others who have come to him, troubled with sexual addictions. Ulven urges them to join an accountability group, which he called "the key to my recovery. You have to talk to other males about it."

He likes a Bible verse from I John: "It talks about walking in the light. It doesn't mean walking perfectly without ever stumbling. It means shining the light on the darkest part of our hearts.

"To me, that means if we are going to be pure as Christian men, we have to be able to admit everything. For the first 15 years of my addiction, I tried to overcome it without shining a light in that darkness. I prayed for years for God to instantly deliver me. He does that sometimes, but he didn't do it with me. He did it when I was willing to admit everything and walk in the light."

Like a recovering alcoholic, Ulven said, "I will always be a recovering sex addict.

"There are boundaries that I now need to set to keep myself sober (such as) accountability with other men. Another key tool for my recovery is on every computer I use, is a program called Covenant Eyes, accountability software that keeps track of all the sites you go to. Anything it flags, it sends to my accountability partner."

Don't quit working for God just because you've had problems, he said.~
Web Of inappropriate content: Ex-Modesto Pastor Makes Admission
 
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