Taking the Bible "seriously"

[mkgal1]

From blogger Tim Fall:

Being Egalitarian and Taking the Bible Seriously

Too often I read criticism that egalitarians don’t take the Bible seriously, or they simply don’t pay attention to it at all. One blogger recently decried the decision of a conservative church to open up the office of elder to women, saying “The denial of complementarianism undermines the church’s practical embrace of the authority of Scripture.” (Denny Burk, Some reflections on a church that has recently embraced egalitarianism, quoting Ligon Duncan.)

My experience, though, is that egalitarian Christians carefully engage with Scripture. Groups such as Christians for Biblical Equality, forums like the Junia Project and bloggers like Margaret Mowczko (and many others) are proof of that.

In any case, I thought it would be handy to have a symbol ready for the next time someone tries to claim complementarians are the ones who take the Bible seriously while egalitarians don’t.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Shortly in the link, he says :

"The authority of Scripture that teaches me that Jesus loves me is the same authority that informs the rest of my understanding of God and his people."
All hopefully true in his case,
but (then next sentence) :
"Others might come to a different understanding on various matters: ......"

So, then, did the authority of Scripture teach him ? or something else teaching him ? or something else teaching "Others" ?

 

[mkgal1]

People impose their own thoughts, perceptions, beliefs into the text.

You haven't noticed that different people reading the exact same version of biblical text arrive at different conclusions? It's not "provable" who is right and who is "wrong".

The point is--don't MOST people agree the "authority of the Bible" teaches "Jesus love me this I know"?

What you're asking---about the disagreements of text---is an age-old question (and something that makes the point that when people use the argument, "The Bible says....." isn't really saying a whole lot).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So then, should we be lassaiz faire - leave things as they are?

Or seek a better way ? (God Willing)

 

[mkgal1]

That's too vague for me to really respond. What are we "not interfering" with? What's the "better way" you're referring to?

The whole point in the OP is that it's typically argued that egalitarians "ignore the Bible"---when it's quite opposite. Most of us have done a lot of digging.....have spent a lot of years praying for wisdom...and have experienced loss because of it (but it's worth it to experience freedom).

 

[Hidden In Him]

From blogger Tim Fall:

Being Egalitarian and Taking the Bible Seriously

The fundamental misunderstanding of the inherent complete equality between men and women in Christ is found in a blatant substitution of the words "man" and "women" when the true Biblical and spiritual context necessitates using the words "husband" and "wife" instead (Note: the Greek words used here can be translated either way interchangeably, so proper translation hinges on accurate interpretation).

What I mean is this. The true Christian teaching is that there is no inhernet difference between men and women in Christ. In fact, in Christ there is no male and female. If a man and woman agree to enter a marriage relationship, however, all the dynamics now change, because HE has agreed to represent Christ in His marriage to His Bride, and she has agreed to represent the Bride in her obedience and submission to Him, in love.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You haven't noticed that different people reading the exact same version of biblical text arrive at different conclusions? It's not "provable" who is right and who is "wrong".

Oh, I've noticed, have I ever. Actually, sometimes it's very provable.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That whole page (at the op link/url) is vague to me,

and ends with>

" More can be listed, [he says]
but the point is that no one should denigrate another’s position as being the product of a lack of concern for the Bible’s very words."

Whereas THIS IS VERY CLEAR TRUTH >>
His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

===========================

Most of us have done a lot of digging..

This might be an assumption, based on the op, and everyone else's experiences and observations and testimonies may disagree a lot.
OR,
I forget - the verses about it is vain to build a house unless the Lord builds it, something like that - Or if it's not built according to His Way?
======================================

..have spent a lot of years of prayers for wisdom.

Perhaps .....
remember as Jesus says, even we who are bad parents, give good gifts to our own children - how then will the Perfect Father withhold anything we ask of Him ? Especially since He Says in His Word He Gives us Perfect Peace (not as the world gives) ,
overflowing Joyousness (totally free, unlimited JOY),
and Righteousness (along with Salvation, now , today, always)...

======================================

.and have experienced loss because of it

What do we lose ?

======================================

(but it's worth it to experience freedom).

If it's worth it, if we have such freedom, then
it is finished. We're done.

 

[mkgal1]

Oh, I've noticed, have I ever. Actually, sometimes it's very provable.

*Sometimes*. But often people have their own bias or beliefs that they read the text through--and no matter how strong the argument is--they aren't willing to give up their way of looking at things.

 

[mkgal1]

That whole page (at the op link/url) is vague to me,

....but I was asking for you to clarify YOUR words--not anything else. This is what was too vague for me to offer any response on:

So then, should we be lassaiz faire - leave things as they are?

Or seek a better way ? (God Willing)

I'd asked:

What are we not interfering with, and what is "a better way" (or what do you even mean by all that)?

 

[Hidden In Him]

....but I was asking for you to clarify YOUR words--not anything else. This is what was too vague for me to offer any response on:

Mkgal, if you can take some good advice, Jeff has a habit of talking up in the hemisphere somewhere and rarely bothers to come down to the level of others, regularly expecting them to come up to his. I think it's a tad irresponsive frankly, but I love him just the same as a brother.

My points may have been unclear, but I can actually give powerful scriptural support to the position you are taking in your OP, so I would suggest maybe giving Jeff a break for a second and focusing on what I said in my most recent post.

 

[mkgal1]

What do we lose ?

A lot of times: our whole belief system; friends; social life; relationships with family members; traditions; routines.

 

[Kenny'sID]

*Sometimes*. But often people have their own bias or beliefs that they read the text through--and no matter how strong the argument is--they aren't willing to give up their way of looking at things.

Exactly, and quit often those bias'/beliefs are selfish agenda driven, that we may have seen several times before. We may not be able to prove them wrong to themselves, like for any one who chooses to delude themselves, but many can see coming a mile away why they choose to see the Bible as they do.

 

[mkgal1]

Mkgal, if you can take some good advice, Jeff has a habit of talking up in the hemisphere somewhere and rarely bothers to come down to the level of others, regularly expecting them to come up to his. I think it's a tad irresponsive frankly, but I love him just the same as a brother.

I've noticed that.

My points may have been unclear, but I can actually give powerful scriptural support to the position you are taking in your OP, so I would suggest maybe giving Jeff a break for a second and focusing on what I said in my most recent post.

What I mean is this. The true Christian teaching is that there is no inherent difference between men and women in Christ. In fact, in Christ there is no male and female. If a man and woman agree to enter a marriage relationship, however, all the dynamics now change, because HE has agreed to represent Christ in His marriage to His Bride, and she has agreed to represent the Bride in her obedience and submission to Him, in love.

That seems to be saying two different things. On one hand you say, "there is no difference in Christ"....but then go on to describe gender roles. Do you realize this sub-forum is for egalitarians only? Maybe I'm misreading--but I get the sense that, so far, this thread has been responded to with a bit of condescension. I can certainly be wrong.

 

[mkgal1]

Exactly, and quit often those bias'/beliefs are selfish agenda driven

That's a good test....don't you think (if someone's beliefs offer them personal benefit--often at the expense of another-- then maybe it's not truth)? Like when slaveholders used the Bible to support their practice of "owning" other people.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I get the sense that, so far, this thread has been responded to with a bit of condescension. I can certainly be wrong.

Good Lord, no. You're misreading me, as you can tell from how you are confused about my points.

That seems to be saying two different things. On one hand you say, "there is no difference in Christ"....but then go on to describe gender roles.

Gender roles in marriage only. Outside marriage there is total and complete equality in Christ. Essentially there is also complete equality inside marriage as well, but yes, this is where gender roles come into play, because they are agreeing to celebrate the mystery of Christ's intimate relationship with His Bride, the church. There is absolutely NO equality between Christ and His bride, so there wouldn't be in any true Christian marriage either, at least if they knew what they were doing. Am I supporting spousal abuse, or any of the Satanic viewpoints held by wicked and carnal men these days, God forbid. I am saying the husband represents Christ in both His love and authority over her, and she represents the church in her love and obedience to him. His "authority" is primarily expressed, not in making her wash dishes, but in teaching her the word, just as this is Christ's main function in how He interacts with His bride, "washing her with the washing of the water in the word." (Ephesians 5:24-29).

 

[Hidden In Him]

Post cleaned up.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A lot of times: our whole belief system; friends; social life; relationships with family members; traditions; routines.

Yes, just as Jesus says - simple and true.

Not high up, as someone mistakenly posted,
but
back to God's Written Word, and trusting HIM>IN JESUS' GRACE.

Then everything becomes clear. (guaranteed)

 

[mkgal1]

Also...the use of the wording, "authority of Scripture" originally came from the blogger Denny Burk. It seems to be a way to be the first one to sort of put a stake in the moral high ground --so that anything that deviates is presenting a deviation from Scripture itself (not just the interpretation of the one that got there first).

I think Tim Fall was merely using that wording to show there's almost *always* another perspective or interpretation. It's not that things are "ignored" merely when there's an opposing view.

 

[mkgal1]

Gender roles in marriage only. Outside marriage there is total and complete equality in Christ.

I am saying the husband represents Christ in both His love and authority over her, and she represents the church in her love and obedience to him. His "authority" is primarily expressed, not in making her wash dishes, but in teaching her the word, just as this is Christ's main function in how He interacts with His bride, "washing her with the washing of the water in the word." (Ephesians 5:24-29).

That's not the views of this sub-forum. This also isn't a forum where debate is allowed.....so it sort of leaves us at a place where we need to just agree to disagree.