Taking the Bible "seriously"

[Hidden In Him]

That's not the views of this sub-forum. This also isn't a forum where debate is allowed.....so it sort of leaves us at a place where we need to just agree to disagree.

Ok, no problem. I apparently didn't understand the terms of this sub-forum. My sincerest apologies.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, just as Jesus says - simple and true.

Not high up, as someone mistakenly posted,
but
back to God's Written Word, and trusting HIM>IN JESUS' GRACE.

Then everything becomes clear. (guaranteed)

Whenever I hear or read the words, "as it's *clearly* written in Scripture...." it's usually a tip-off that I'm typically going to disagree. Most of the time....context is ignored...or the "whole counsel of God" is ignored.

 

[mkgal1]

Ok, no problem. I apparently didn't understand the terms of this sub-forum. My sincerest apologies.

There's no need to apologize.....it's not a problem, I just wanted to let you know

 

[Hidden In Him]

There's no need to apologize.....it's not a problem, I just wanted to let you know

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Whenever I hear or read the words, "as it's *clearly* written in Scripture...." it's usually a tip-off that I'm typically going to disagree. Most of the time....context is ignored...or the "whole counsel of God" is ignored.

Understood, lack of clarity is much more common than clarity. Lack of agreement thus follows.
This below might need clarifying (I 'posted' then delete/copied it; but here it is fwiw) >>

....but I was asking for you to clarify YOUR words--not anything else. This is what was too vague for me to offer any response on:

That link you put in the OP is vague - what the purpose of it in itself is vague.

I'd asked:

What are we not interfering with, and what is "a better way" (or what do you even mean by all that)?

The better way is the goal, as when Jesus taught the disciples and asked them , when many of His disciples walked away and did not come back, will you (Peter, John, James.... ) also go away ?
And they said "where to Master? where would we go ? WHO ELSE has the WORDS of ETERNAL LIFE ? "
so those faithful disciples who endured to the end (even with some falling down along the way as well known),
were taught by JESUS, faithfully , by God's Word,
as Jesus says in SCRIPTURE for all disciples how to learn (or rather WHO to learn from ) ---- < high up > ? YES! in the HEAVENLIES! but right here on terra firma too. Down to earth, straight truth from God, straight as revealed by God to EACH MEMBER as He choose - as described in the NT for the meetings of believers: LET EACH ONE BRING - a word, a song, a spiritual, as GOD has given,,, each one....

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So, then, did the authority of Scripture teach him ? or something else teaching him ? or something else teaching "Others" ?

You haven't noticed that different people reading the exact same version of biblical text arrive at different conclusions? It's not "provable" who is right and who is "wrong"... ...

People impose their own thoughts, perceptions, beliefs into the text.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, per se. But of life, or LIFE!?
IN JESUS. WHO teaches them ? WHY do they IMPOSE their own thoughts , perceptions and beliefs into the text ?
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What you're asking---about the disagreements of text---is an age-old question (and something that makes the point that when people use the argument, "The Bible says....." isn't really saying a whole lot).

Where do the disagreements come from ?
or rather,
where do the disagreements come from ACCORDING to GOD'S WORD? [even the disagreements from teachers, pastors, leaders, family, etc etc ]
Somewhere it says they come because people sinfully want their own way, or they ask from God for their own desires.

i.e. they deny or show that they are not crucified with Christ. They have refused to walk with Him or to abide in Him, His Way, or to let His Word abide in them, His Way (as He Says all the time, as is necessary).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You haven't noticed that different people reading the exact same version of biblical text arrive at different conclusions? It's not "provable" who is right and who is "wrong".

< short version > Yes, people do that, and there is a remedy. (That's why you posted this thread, is it not , to find out the remedy ? Or just to point out the problem ? )
There has always been the testimony of God's People proving it. Their lives in harmony with His Word daily with Him. Even the unbelievers can see this when it happens.

The point is-
-don't MOST people agree
<the "authority of the Bible" teaches "Jesus love me this I know"?>

No, most people do not agree.

Oh, they will lip sink "Jesus loves us this we know",
but
what did God say about that ?
"These people honor Me with their lips".

(anywhere/ everywhere, right and wrong)

But the problem is, they don't agree on the Bible. Add a word here, take a word there, mold it and shape it and twist it with glee ....
is most common.

The solution? Prayer first. Prayer always. And surrender. (Obey God).

 

[mkgal1]

Sorry, but you wrote out a lot of words, but still didn't seem to answer my question:
I'd asked:

What are we not interfering with, and what is "a better way" (or what do you even mean by all that)?

.....maybe take it one piece at a time. What are we not interfering with? You'd written...."should we be laissez faire about it and leave things the way they are"? I don't believe that the Kingdom of God is static. I believe God (and His ways) are very dynamic and changing (getting rid of the dross, so to speak)....so, if I'm understanding you, no.

 

[mkgal1]

This is what I believe (and many may reject this simply because of the source, but like my signature here says, "truth is true everywhere or it's not true anywhere"):

The equality of the sexes is a cornerstone of God’s plan for human development and prosperity:

“The world of humanity is possessed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength, the bird will not fly. Until womankind reaches the same degree as man, until she enjoys the same arena of activity, extraordinary attainment for humanity will not be realized; humanity cannot wing its way to heights of real attainment. When the two wings . . . become equivalent in strength, enjoying the same prerogatives, the flight of man will be exceedingly lofty and extraordinary.”6~Two Wings of a Bird

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You haven't noticed that different people reading the exact same version of biblical text arrive at different conclusions?

So then, should we be lassaiz faire - leave things as they are?

When people arrive at different conclusions, should we leave things as they are ?

I don't think so either. As you posted >

I don't believe that the Kingdom of God is static. I believe God (and His ways) are very dynamic and changing (getting rid of the dross, so to speak)....so, if I'm understanding you, no.

i.e. Don't leave things as they are.

 

[mkgal1]

When people arrive at different conclusions, should we leave things as they are ?

I don't think so either. As you posted >

i.e. Don't leave things as they are.

Okay.....but "leave things as they are"? I'm not capable of changing another person's views (and have finally given up trying, for the most part)....so I'm still not sure what you meant about "should we leave things as they are"? Individually.....collectively....when two are in disagreement? I don't know what sort of situation you're applying that to.

This OP is one example of how some people see the egalitarian group as "deviating from Scripture" but we see it more like, "moving towards God's plan of redemption". Both sides believe they are in "truth".....and are "taking the Bible seriously". Being "ever changing" doesn't necessarily mean one is "in line with Scripture" just as "holding to these things" isn't always the truth either. Does that make sense? We can't make either the standard.

 

[Chaplain David]

People impose their own thoughts, perceptions, beliefs into the text.

You haven't noticed that different people reading the exact same version of biblical text arrive at different conclusions? It's not "provable" who is right and who is "wrong".

The point is--don't MOST people agree the "authority of the Bible" teaches "Jesus love me this I know"?

What you're asking---about the disagreements of text---is an age-old question (and something that makes the point that when people use the argument, "The Bible says....." isn't really saying a whole lot).

I think more proof for this point is seeing the large number of denominations on the protestant sides of Christianity particularly in the US. I've always been somewhat baffled how most of them are Christ-centered yet find differences about various points. There are the mainstream churches such as Presbyterian, Methodist and Baptist then there are the nondenominational churches in huge numbers.

Thank you for starting this thread.

Faithfully,

 

[Fantine]

Some people try to isolate the truths in the Bible from the cultural context in which they were written. I don't think we can look at them in any other way.

That's what makes the Bible a living document that is relevant in the present and the future.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Okay.....but "leave things as they are"? I'm not capable of changing another person's views (and have finally given up trying, for the most part)....so I'm still not sure what you meant about "should we leave things as they are"? Individually.....collectively....when two are in disagreement? I don't know what sort of situation you're applying that to.

When any disagreement develops, as many did in Scripture, there's all man's different ways to deal with it, and then there's God's Way, as written. Notice with all the disagreements within Israel, God's Chosen People, in the OT,
there was a way to deal with all of them, and every disagreement was dealt with, and all God's People remained God's People, and they remained together as God's People. Often those who challenged God were exterminated, simply.(Like those peoples along the journey who were outside God's Covenant , when necessary, at the time!, so they would not lead God's People astray into idolatry and sexual sins)

This OP is one example of how some people see the egalitarian group as "deviating from Scripture" but we see it more like, "moving towards God's plan of redemption". Both sides believe they are in "truth".....and are "taking the Bible seriously". Being "ever changing" doesn't necessarily mean one is "in line with Scripture" just as "holding to these things" isn't always the truth either. Does that make sense? We can't make either the standard.

I have never met nor seen an egalitarian group in person. Probably some individuals, yes, and likewise - what's the other group called ? Complimentarian? Who knew of such things ? (growing up)
BEFORE such things became 2 separate groups (if they are actually 2 separate groups), there was already God's Way in place, as written anyway if not "in place" i.e. not known and/or not being used.
AFTER ( if ? ) there are 2 separate groups, perhaps much different criteria become important to each group, (man's ways? competing ways?) , yet still, as always, God's Way (as written) remains true, for as many as have the "ministry of reconciliation" written in the NT.
All through the OT and the NT, practically speaking, God never leaves people as they are when He finds them/ calls them/ chooses them/ instructs them/ guides them/ directs their steps,
EXCEPT the "other nations" - He doesn't tell "other nations" what to do to direct their steps,
ONLY HIS PEOPLE , He always tells what to do, faithfully and true.
He never failed to, ever; did He ?

 

[mkgal1]

BEFORE such things became 2 separate groups (if they are actually 2 separate groups), there was already God's Way in place, as written anyway if not "in place" i.e. not known and/or not being used.

I agree.....yet I'm not positive we agree on how that plan would be described. How would you sum it up (since you mentioned it)?

All through the OT and the NT, practically speaking, God never leaves people as they are when He finds them/ calls them/ chooses them/ instructs them/ guides them/ directs their steps,
EXCEPT the "other nations" - He doesn't tell "other nations" what to do to direct their steps,
ONLY HIS PEOPLE , He always tells what to do, faithfully and true.
He never failed to, ever; did He ?

I *also* agree with this as well. I believe this is just how we end up with divided groups, where one group resists that change and the other is willing to grow and evolve. Some examples that come to mind are attitudes about slavery and racial equality.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree.....yet I'm not positive we agree on how that plan would be described. How would you sum it up (since you mentioned it)?

Key (one key) is "union in Jesus".
Notice all through the NT, the ekklesia born again ones, born of the Father's Will, (not man's will and not the will of the flesh), were "in union" with Jesus, as was YHWH'S PLAN - and accomplished by YHWH through Y'SHUA (not by man's ways, not by man's methods, not by man's ideas, but by YHWH, perfectly).

When Y'SHUA MESSIAH was still talking with His disciples, some of them balked, complained that His Word was too hard, and they left Him, without asking for His explanation, and He did not try to get them back - He just let them go, and He asked the remaining disciples "will you also leave Me?".... they were indeed free to leave Him if they wanted to ..... they replied "where would we go Master? No One Else has the words of Eternal Life." and stayed with Him.(even though they had a few bumps along the way! - He restored them as they were willing).

Who left ? The ones who thought His Words were too hard to bear.
Who remained? The ones who knew that no one else had a way to eternal life.

i.e. God's Way - 'before' there were separate opposed groups, was one body , one assembly, in union, in Jesus, .....

He did not show in Scripture , as far as I know or remember, how to reconcile two opposing groups. Everyone who was immersed in Y'SHUA stayed together, and sought one another out when visiting other cities.

 

[mkgal1]

I think more proof for this point is seeing the large number of denominations on the protestant sides of Christianity particularly in the US. I've always been somewhat baffled how most of them are Christ-centered yet find differences about various points. There are the mainstream churches such as Presbyterian, Methodist and Baptist then there are the nondenominational churches in huge numbers.

Thank you for starting this thread.

Faithfully,

Exactly. So when a church claims, "we are a Christ-centered" church---that still doesn't really disclose much, because there are different perceptions of Christ.

I found this article to be relevant to this (I liked the distinction that was made, "Christianist"):

Donald Trump’s proposed budget, with its devastating cuts to programs for poor families, ignited similar reactions fromreligious leaders outside the hard political right. Rachel Held Evans tweeted, “There are few things the Bible is unambiguously clear about, but from Hebrew Scripture to Matt. 25, care for the poor & needy is one of them.” Defense of the rich at the expense of the poor sounds to believers and nonbelievers outside the GOP fold like hypocrisy from politicians who trumpet their religious virtues.

Hypocrisy is too generous a word. It posits a shared set of values and calls on politicians to repent and return to the Christian social justice mission that they must know, deep down in their souls, is what God demands of them. But the accusation of hypocrisy plays right into their hands. Once a person or party has staked out the high ground of orthodoxy, no one arguing from a less orthodox position can win.

They are literally holier than thou. That’s why they invent any scriptural justification they can. Erick Erickson’s argument that Jesus’ definition of “the least of these” includes only fellow Christians is the current favoritedefensive weapon of the religious right against attacks from their progressive co-religionists. The American right enjoys this argument, because they will always win it as long as the public believes that the GOP is grounded in religious principles — that Republican politicians are, in some way that matters, Christians.

That, as Evangelicals like to say, is between them and the Lord. The state of their souls is none of my business or yours. I don’t know if they’re Christians, and I don’t care. Neither should you.

But they are Christianists — and that is everybody’s business.

Andrew Sullivan first used the word “Christianist” in 2003 to describe Eric Rudolph, an anti-abortion and anti-gay American terrorist. He then expanded his definition in a 2006 article in TIME Magazine:

“Christianism is an ideology, politics, an ism. The distinction between Christian and Christianist echoes the distinction we make between Muslim and Islamist. Muslims are those who follow Islam. Islamists are those who want to wield Islam as a political force and conflate state and mosque. …It is the belief that religion dictates politics and that politics should dictate the laws for everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike.”

~Christianists Want Dominion Over America — And It’s Not Rude To Say So

 

[mkgal1]

Key (one key) is "union in Jesus".

But...in order for that to happen.....we have to FIRST agree on what Jesus' priories were--or what it even means to be "like Jesus".

 

[mkgal1]

He did not show in Scripture , as far as I know or remember, how to reconcile two opposing groups. Everyone who was immersed in Y'SHUA stayed together, and sought one another out when visiting other cities.

I agree. It's not something that comes from the outside in....what unites people in Truth is their genuine desire to seek Truth.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But...in order for that to happen.....we have to FIRST agree on what Jesus' priories were--or what it even means to be "like Jesus".

Sorry, no.

 

[mkgal1]

Sorry, no.

Can you elaborate? In your other post, it sounded like you were agreeing with me when you wrote:

"He did not show in Scripture , as far as I know or remember, how to reconcile two opposing groups. Everyone who was immersed in Y'SHUA stayed together, and sought one another out when visiting other cities."

If one group has one idea of who Jesus was/what His priorities were....and another has opposing ideas (like the article I posted about Christian-ists)...then those two groups will not come together. That's what I meant by "we need to first agree on what it's like to be like Jesus". I don't mean that we need to wait for the others to agree with us (that's entirely within their boundaries--and not up to me to manage).