Cessationism question

Biblicist

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Biblicist, in e-sword, there is no number and definition in Greek for, withal. Why is that?
The now archaic English word withal does not have a corresponding word in the Greek text. It is a word that the various translation committees have employed over the years to help our English translations to flow a bit easier.

Vine's KJV dictionary gives the key word symphero as "towards the profiting" which hardly makes for an easy transition into spoken English, which is why the early translators added in withal.

Obviously it was more important for Corinth, Collosae... to receive the Holy Spirit rather than books and messages. We need the word for faith and receiving as well as the commands and wisdom, but after that the Holy Spirit is foremost, true? The Holy Spirit is part of the complete message, and the message is not surely complete, since Nero killed the apostles and had John exiled. Would you agree? If we are to understand what the word meant to them then, culturally and contextually... then form what it is to mean to us today, then surely this emphasizes that it cannot be complete?
As to the Canon of Scripture, I know that this is something that you raised earlier, where I don't think that I commented on that particular post; but suffice to say, I am convinced that the Canon of Scripture was settled many centuries ago, but this does not mean that God does not communicate to man through prayer, prophecy and dreams.
 
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1stcenturylady

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You seem to be taking a few, shall I say, rather interesting pathways with our discussions. Where in the world have I suggested such a silly thing? Of anyone on this forum I would probably be the strongest advocate that when we pray in the Spirit (tongues) that they are ALWAYS directed to the Father and spoken in an inarticulate communication which Paul refers to as being a tongue of the angels (1Cor 13:1), this is pretty much standard Pentecostal theology or Theology101.

You believe tongues is only the language of angels, but the verse you quote says, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels.

You say that on the Day of Pentecost they were speaking the languages of the people that were there and they could understand naturally, even though that contradicts what you just said above (unless the people were angels). It also contradicts scripture "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you even know what you believe. You won't let scripture guide your beliefs, you contradict yourself, you won't let anyone show you what the passage clearly says that doesn't contradict any scripture and mock it, you choose the beliefs of your denomination as your foundation over the word of God.

God is not the author of confusion, but you are confused. Are you going to continue to let your denomination be your God, and their beliefs, your foundation?
 
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swordsman1

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Yes, I trust that this will be the case; of course, all that anyone needs to do is to start with one of the older lexicons or dictionaries that are based on the KJV, such as with a Strong's dictionary reference or even with Vine's KJV Dictionary.

Or even better still examine the earliest KJV commentaries of the time and see what they understood by the phrase 'to profit withal'.

John Trapp Complete Commentary (1656)
Ver. 7. [To profit withal] We are neither born nor born again for ourselves. If we be not fit to serve the body, neither are we fit to be of the body; he is not a saint that seeketh not communion of saints. Pudeat illos, qui ita in studiis se abdiderunt, ut ad vitam communem nullum fructum ferre possint, saith Cicero. They may well be ashamed that employ not their talents for a public good. {a} The Greek word το συμφερον importeth such a kind of profit, as redounds to community. It seemeth to be a metaphor from bees, that bring all the honey they can get to the common hive.

Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible (1683)
These gifts he tells them were given to every man; where every signifieth each one; for the same gifts or powers were not given to all, but to those to whom they were given, they were given not to puff them up, or to give them matter to boast of, but to do good withal to the church of Christ.

Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible (1706)

V. The end for which these gifts were bestowed: The manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal, 1 Corinthians 12:7. The Spirit was manifested by the exercise of these gifts; his influence and interest appeared in them. But they were not distributed for the mere honour and advantage of those who had them, but for the benefit of the church, to edify the body, and spread and advance the gospel. Note, Whatever gifts God confers on any man, he confers them that he may do good with them, whether they be common or spiritual. The outward gifts of his bounty are to be improved for his glory, and employed in doing good to others. No man has them merely for himself. They are a trust put into his hands, to profit withal; and the more he profits others with them, the more abundantly will they turn to his account in the end, Philemon 4:17. Spiritual gifts are bestowed, that men may with them profit the church and promote Christianity. They are not given for show, but for service; not for pomp and ostentation, but for edification; not to magnify those that have them, but to edify others.

A Paraphrase and Notes on the Epistles of St. Paul to the Galatians, I and II Corinthians, Romans, and Ephesians by John Locke (1707)
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man, to profit withal.
But the way, or gift, wherein everyone, who has the Spirit, is to show it, is given him, not for his private advantage, or honour, but for the good and advantage of the church.​


Unless I am mistaken, the Douay-Rheims Bible (1899) differs from the Latin Vulgate (382/1563) but I must admit that I am not aware of what the differences are. As I mentioned previously, the editors of the Roman Catholic D-R decided to follow the tradition of the earlier L-V which maintains a line of about 1500 years of Latin practice, which is something that any lexicographer would point out.

The Douay-Rheims translation from the Latin Vulgate was published in 1582. The American Edition of the D-R was published in 1899 and as far as I am aware is the same as the DR but without the notes and comments.

As I said in my previous paragraph, political correctness and even doctrinal bias regularly play a part in the development of each and every translation of the Bible. It would not be hard to find some reputable information even online that has been produced by either a translation committee or by a previous member of one of the committees. Over the years I spent a lot of time reading on these matters and of course my time with Wycliffe Bible Translators here in Australia has allowed me to hear of these things first hand. In fact, you only need to look at the all too regular complaints with how either Wycliffe or one of the Arabic translation committees have over accommodated a particular word rendition to suit the Arabic market; it seems that you have a lot of catching up to do.

If your crazy idea was true and there was a mass cessationist plot among the modern bible translators to dishonestly mistranslate 1 Cor 12:7 to say 'for the common good' don't you think Pentecostal theologians like Gordon Fee and other continuists would be crying foul from the rooftops. Instead there is not even a suggestion of foul play and they, along with the vast majority of other scholars, readily accept this as the correct translation. Seeing as the BDAG, Mounce, Louw-Nida, and Friberg lexicons all say this is the correct translation don't you think 'the common good' may indeed be the correct translation, or are the lexicographers part of the plot as well?.

Seeing as the modern lexicons, the vast majority of bible versions, and the vast majority of scholars all affirm that 'common good' as the correct translation, I think we can now safely consign your conspiracy theory idea to the bin as nothing more than a beleaguered continuists desperate attempt to deny the fact that Scripture is decidedly against the Pentecostal teaching on tongues.

As you are a confessing hardcore-cessationist then I am not surprised that the content of 1Cor 12 is a mystery to you.

I am indeed a confessing cessationist. Although the derogatory label of 'hardcore' is one of your own making - a vain attempt to paint cessationists in a bad light.

I can understand that as you are one of the proverbial "have-nots" that what the "haves-have" can be disconcerting for you.

Ah, I see you are puffed up with spiritual pride just as the Corinthians were before Paul took them down a notch or two. The funny thing is though, unlike the Corinthians, the prize that you boastfully think you "have", and I "have not", is actually a counterfeit and not the true NT gift.
 
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Biblicist

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I'm sorry, but I don't think you even know what you believe. You won't let scripture guide your beliefs, you contradict yourself, you won't let anyone show you what the passage clearly says that doesn't contradict any scripture and mock it, you choose the beliefs of your denomination as your foundation over the word of God.

As for my methodology when I approach the study of the Scriptures, which adheres to the principles of Systematic Theology, this compels me to not only view a particular verse or passage in its immediate context, but that I also view it in light of the particular Book it is found in and also that any passage be considered in light of the overall teachings of the writer, which in the case of Pneumatology the main two Biblical writers are the theologian Paul and the historian Luke. For those who have undertaken any serious study into Pentecostal distinctives, we would all be well aware that over the past two or three decades that classic-Pentecostalism has based its distinctive theology on what they deem to be Lukan and not Pauline theology, though this is a misreading of Luke on their part.

As for your claim that I “mock” the Scriptures, I can easily put this insult down to your lack of exposure to the Word and most importantly that you have obviously not availed yourself of the incredible number of commentaries and lexicons that are available to us; if you were better resourced this would have allowed you to realise that your position is what we would deem as being on the fringe of Pentecostal thought. For those who eagerly want to know what the brightest minds of the Body of Christ think on a given matter (in that we are teachable), we will make every attempt to peruse through these particular resources.

As to your comment that I am “choosing the beliefs of my denomination”, this is a bit of an odd one though I must admit that if my denomination held similar views to my own regarding the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit then I would be a very happy person indeed. As for your statement that you “don’t think that I know what I believe”, I would say that you are hoping that this is the case as you are obviously struggling to come to grips with what I say; but of course, you only need to open up even a couple of good monograph commentaries on First Corinthians to get up to speed.

You believe tongues is only the language of angels, but the verse you quote says, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels.
Yes, Paul not only spoke in a heavenly dialect (of angels) when he spoke in tongues to the Father but he also spoke to man in Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin (he was a Roman citizen) and probably Greek (of men).

You say that on the Day of Pentecost they were speaking the languages of the people that were there and they could understand naturally, even though that contradicts what you just said above (unless the people were angels). It also contradicts scripture "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
What you appear to have missed is that when the 120 were speaking they were in fact addressing the Father and not the Jews who were standing nearby. This is in line with 1Cor 14 where Paul tells us that when we pray or praise in the Spirit (tongues) that the Holy Spirit will always direct his speech to the Father and never to man.

Many of the better contemporary commentaries on Acts (see Keener) and First Corinthians should point out that the words of praise that the 120 were speaking were being directed to the Father, which means that they were not providing the crowd with a supposed evangelistic message, which is an important point to understand as it completely derails any cessationist attempt to say that tongues were intended to evangelise the lost.

God is not the author of confusion, but you are confused. Are you going to continue to let your denomination be your God, and their beliefs, your foundation?
As I have already said, we should never confuse our own apparent lack of exposure to the topic of Pneumatology with what we deem to be someone else’s confusion; remember, whenever I make a comment on any aspect of Pneumatology I will have the views of quite a few Pentecostal, charismatic and Evangelical commentators in mind, views that I both agree and disagree with.

There we go, now I feel much better . . . let us continue on!!
 
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1stcenturylady

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As for my methodology when I approach the study of the Scriptures, which adheres to the principles of Systematic Theology, this compels me to not only view a particular verse or passage in its immediate context, but that I also view it in light of the particular Book it is found in and also that any passage be considered in light of the overall teachings of the writer, which in the case of Pneumatology the main two Biblical writers are the theologian Paul and the historian Luke. For those who have undertaken any serious study into Pentecostal distinctives, we would all be well aware that over the past two or three decades that classic-Pentecostalism has based its distinctive theology on what they deem to be Lukan and not Pauline theology, though this is a misreading of Luke on their part.

As for your claim that I “mock” the Scriptures, I can easily put this insult down to your lack of exposure to the Word and most importantly that you have obviously not availed yourself of the incredible number of commentaries and lexicons that are available to us; if you were better resourced this would have allowed you to realise that your position is what we would deem as being on the fringe of Pentecostal thought. For those who eagerly want to know what the brightest minds of the Body of Christ think on a given matter (in that we are teachable), we will make every attempt to peruse through these particular resources.

As to your comment that I am “choosing the beliefs of my denomination”, this is a bit of an odd one though I must admit that if my denomination held similar views to my own regarding the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit then I would be a very happy person indeed. As for your statement that you “don’t think that I know what I believe”, I would say that you are hoping that this is the case as you are obviously struggling to come to grips with what I say; but of course, you only need to open up even a couple of good monograph commentaries on First Corinthians to get up to speed.


Yes, Paul not only spoke in a heavenly dialect (of angels) when he spoke in tongues to the Father but he also spoke to man in Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin (he was a Roman citizen) and probably Greek (of men).


What you appear to have missed is that when the 120 were speaking they were in fact addressing the Father and not the Jews who were standing nearby. This is in line with 1Cor 14 where Paul tells us that when we pray or praise in the Spirit (tongues) that the Holy Spirit will always direct his speech to the Father and never to man.

Many of the better contemporary commentaries on Acts (see Keener) and First Corinthians should point out that the words of praise that the 120 were speaking were being directed to the Father, which means that they were not providing the crowd with a supposed evangelistic message, which is an important point to understand as it completely derails any cessationist attempt to say that tongues were intended to evangelise the lost.


As I have already said, we should never confuse our own apparent lack of exposure to the topic of Pneumatology with what we deem to be someone else’s confusion; remember, whenever I make a comment on any aspect of Pneumatology I will have the views of quite a few Pentecostal, charismatic and Evangelical commentators in mind, views that I both agree and disagree with.

There we go, now I feel much better . . . let us continue on!!

Answer this, if, as you say, they were speaking the tongues of angels, how did the devout Jews listening understand what they were saying? You've also said they were speaking the languages of the people present, completely contradicting yourself. So which is it? Angels or man? How does that coincide with what Paul said of tongues that "no man understands." Acts must agree with 1 Corinthians, and visa versa, which they do if properly read.
 
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Biblicist

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Answer this, if, as you say, they were speaking the tongues of angels, how did the devout Jews listening understand what they were saying? You've also said they were speaking the languages of the people present, completely contradicting yourself. So which is it? Angels or man? How does that coincide with what Paul said of tongues that "no man understands." Acts must agree with 1 Corinthians, and visa versa, which they do if properly read.
Don't forget, as much as there are differences between the tongues of Acts 2 and congregational tongues (1Cor 12, 13 & 14) the account of Acts 2 was on the Day of Pentecost which is a non-repeatable event where the Holy Spirit was first given to the Church.

Hopefully the following two charts that I have produced will help clear this up for you. Though I do appreciate that those who say that the Holy Spirit fell upon the unbelievers so that they could understand what was being said in tongues has been done so with good intentions, but such zeal is simply unwarranted.

Tongues (Acts compared to Corinthians).png


Tongues - Comparing Acts 2 with 1Cor 14.png


 
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GoldenKingGaze

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In reading the whole NT, gifts can benefit one alone, or all there. Or some there or one other. But if you are alone like Jesus choosing His disciples, then knowledge is useful for the glory of God. If it is useful you ask for it, and the father gives bread not stone, provided your motives are right and you have no doubt, then He gives knowledge. Pentecost and God's presence didn't leave us orphans. He is still there as teacher...

The dispute between swordsman and Biblicist can be solved using original Greek text with word for word, one at a time definitions of 1 Cor 12:7.

1Co 12:7 εκαστω δε διδοται η φανερωσις του πνευματος προς το συμφερον

1Co 12:7 But1161 the3588 manifestation5321 of the3588 Spirit4151 is given1325 to every man1538 to4314 profit4851 withal.

Note no number besides withal in the KJV with Strong's numbers for defintions.
 
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Biblicist

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In reading the whole NT, gifts can benefit one alone, or all there. Or some there or one other. But if you are alone like Jesus choosing His disciples, then knowledge is useful for the glory of God. If it is useful you ask for it, and the father gives bread not stone, provided your motives are right and you have no doubt, then He gives knowledge. Pentecost and God's presence didn't leave us orphans. He is still there as teacher...

The dispute between swordsman and Biblicist can be solved using original Greek text with word for word, one at a time definitions of 1 Cor 12:7.

1Co 12:7 εκαστω δε διδοται η φανερωσις του πνευματος προς το συμφερον

1Co 12:7 But1161 the3588 manifestation5321 of the3588 Spirit4151 is given1325 to every man1538 to4314 profit4851 withal.

Note no number besides withal in the KJV with Strong's numbers for defintions.
That was a good post; but of course my interaction with Swordy is somewhat irrelevant as no reputable lexical source considers withal to be anything but a linguistic aid, at least I hope that no reputable source would attempt to say otherwise.

If nothing else, I trust that my efforts to provide a bit of lexical material etc have proven to be of service to others; though I hope that when people copy and paste the lexical entries that I provide that they will be diligent by ensuring that they are transferred error free.
 
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Biblicist

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Or even better still examine the earliest KJV commentaries of the time and see what they understood by the phrase 'to profit withal'.

John Trapp Complete Commentary (1656)
Ver. 7. [To profit withal] We are neither born nor born again for ourselves. If we be not fit to serve the body, neither are we fit to be of the body; he is not a saint that seeketh not communion of saints. Pudeat illos, qui ita in studiis se abdiderunt, ut ad vitam communem nullum fructum ferre possint, saith Cicero. They may well be ashamed that employ not their talents for a public good. {a} The Greek word το συμφερον importeth such a kind of profit, as redounds to community. It seemeth to be a metaphor from bees, that bring all the honey they can get to the common hive.

Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible (1683)
These gifts he tells them were given to every man; where every signifieth each one; for the same gifts or powers were not given to all, but to those to whom they were given, they were given not to puff them up, or to give them matter to boast of, but to do good withal to the church of Christ.

Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible (1706)

V. The end for which these gifts were bestowed: The manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal, 1 Corinthians 12:7. The Spirit was manifested by the exercise of these gifts; his influence and interest appeared in them. But they were not distributed for the mere honour and advantage of those who had them, but for the benefit of the church, to edify the body, and spread and advance the gospel. Note, Whatever gifts God confers on any man, he confers them that he may do good with them, whether they be common or spiritual. The outward gifts of his bounty are to be improved for his glory, and employed in doing good to others. No man has them merely for himself. They are a trust put into his hands, to profit withal; and the more he profits others with them, the more abundantly will they turn to his account in the end, Philemon 4:17. Spiritual gifts are bestowed, that men may with them profit the church and promote Christianity. They are not given for show, but for service; not for pomp and ostentation, but for edification; not to magnify those that have them, but to edify others.

A Paraphrase and Notes on the Epistles of St. Paul to the Galatians, I and II Corinthians, Romans, and Ephesians by John Locke (1707)
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man, to profit withal.
But the way, or gift, wherein everyone, who has the Spirit, is to show it, is given him, not for his private advantage, or honour, but for the good and advantage of the church.​
Let’s look at how commentaries can be both a friend and a “foe” and why it is important to spend a bit more time investigating what a commentator means in say 1Cor 12 by going to his commentary on chapters 13 & 14:

John Trapp Complete Commentary (1656) link

If we look at how Trapp understood tongues, we will see from 12:28 and 14:2 that he views tongues as being of those who are talented in that they can speak multiple articulate human languages during their everyday activities. So his understanding of tongues is hardly helpful, though from within his context his point that their talents should be used for the common good is certainly relevant to their everyday lives:

1Cor 12:28
Ver. 28. Diversities of tongues] This comes in last, either to bid check to their pride, who gloried so much in their many languages; or because he meant to say more to it in the words following.​

1Cor 14:2
Ver. 2. In an unknown tongue] So they that preach in a kind of a Roman English, and not in a low language to the people’s capacity.​

Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible (1683)
Could not find the source.

Due to time restraints I will leave the rest alone.

The Douay-Rheims translation from the Latin Vulgate was published in 1582. The American Edition of the D-R was published in 1899 and as far as I am aware is the same as the DR but without the notes and comments.
You could very well be right. If this is the case, then it seems that the Latin tradition has maintained a literal understanding of symphero for about 1700 years where it has unto profit.

If your crazy idea was true and there was a mass cessationist plot among the modern bible translators to dishonestly mistranslate 1 Cor 12:7 to say 'for the common good' don't you think Pentecostal theologians like Gordon Fee and other continuists would be crying foul from the rooftops. Instead there is not even a suggestion of foul play and they, along with the vast majority of other scholars, readily accept this as the correct translation. Seeing as the BDAG, Mounce, Louw-Nida, and Friberg lexicons all say this is the correct translation don't you think 'the common good' may indeed be the correct translation, or are the lexicographers part of the plot as well?.
For a start you have misrepresented the BGAG which follows a literal understanding of symphero, which you should very well know by now - very naughty indeed!!

As for their being plots by the various translation committees, their editors or even publishers, in most cases I would put this down to bias or maybe even ignorance but quite often they will translate certain words to appease their intended primary market, as with the complitarian-egalitarian fiasco.

Then we have a remark from Neotestamentica 39.39.2 (2005) p.462
We also hear about the pettiness of great scholars when they feel that they have not received due recognition for their work. Borger concludes his article with the tragic (but true) remark that "the sins committed by biblical scholars in connection with the Greek NT are far too numerous.

Then we have the statement by Kohlenberger in the NIVEC introduction which said:
'There is a saying that says, Traduttore traditore, “the translator is a traitor;” and if the translator is a traitor then the concordance maker [being Kohlenberger] is his partner in crime'.

Seeing as the modern lexicons, the vast majority of bible versions, and the vast majority of scholars all affirm that 'common good' as the correct translation, I think we can now safely consign your conspiracy theory idea to the bin as nothing more than a beleaguered continuists desperate attempt to deny the fact that Scripture is decidedly against the Pentecostal teaching on tongues.
Again, you are misrepresenting (actually you are fibbing) as no Pentecostal or charismatic scholar would dare say that the Manifestations of the Spirit are only given to serve others; your comment is well, how can I say it . . .! This is why you need to read the entirety of a commentators views throughout chapters 12, 13 & 14 - but of course you might find this to be a bit inconvenient.

I am indeed a confessing cessationist. Although the derogatory label of 'hardcore' is one of your own making - a vain attempt to paint cessationists in a bad light.
It can be hard to label those who are either cessationist or hardcore-cessationists, where the hardcore variety are often referred to as being hard-cessationists and others as soft-cessationists. One of the struggles that I have is that I do not like to throw together the often lucklustre and unwitting individual who finds himself being a cessationist by accident with those who for whatever reason have chosen to adopt a worldview that is foreign to the Scriptures.

Ah, I see you are puffed up with spiritual pride just as the Corinthians were before Paul took them down a notch or two. The funny thing is though, unlike the Corinthians, the prize that you boastfully think you "have", and I "have not", is actually a counterfeit and not the true NT gift.
Undoubtedly there would be many on this forum who can attest to how their non-Christian family and friends have laid much the same accusation against them when they have told them that they are now Born Again. As for how I was able to embrace the fullness of the Spirit about two years later I can remember the jealously and jibes by my so called brothers and sisters in Christ who also said much the same thing; which is why I quoted the adage which says the "Have-nots will often decry what the haves-have".

Can I rightfully boast in the Lord that he has filled many of us with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit - you betcha I can!!!!
 
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swordsman1

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Yes, Paul not only spoke in a heavenly dialect (of angels) when he spoke in tongues to the Father but he also spoke to man in Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin (he was a Roman citizen) and probably Greek (of men).


It has already been explained to you on numerous occasions that Paul did not speak in the language of angels. Paul uses five conditional IF statements in 1 Cor 13:1-3 which were both hypothetical (they were imagined scenarios, not things he actually did) AND hyperbole (the imagined scenarios were wildly exaggerated examples of each gift) - to make the point that even having spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love:
- tongues, even to the degree of speaking the language of angels...
- the gift of prophecy even to the degree of knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie becoming omniscient)...
- the gift of faith even to the degree of removing mountains...
- the gift of giving even to the degree of giving up ALL your possessions...
- and even giving up your own life...

....would all be to no avail without love.

None of those exaggerated hypothetical examples represent the normal operation of those gifts.

The 'tongues of men' are not the languages that Paul had learnt as you suppose. The context is spiritual gifts so the tongues he is referring to is the gift of tongues - miraculously speaking in foreign human languages. Even Pentecostalism's Gordon Fee admits that.

The following commentaries show that the vast majority of scholars (cessationist and continuist alike) reject the idea that tongues is speaking the language of angels (a few more added since I last posted this list including a clarification from your beloved Thiselton):

Conflict and Community in Corinth
Ben Witherington

To some extent, Paul's hyperbole, especially in vv. 1-3, is a mocking of the Sophistic boasting going on among the inspired and eloquent ones in Corinth. The hyperbole recasts the self-portrait so that each item is stretched to the limit of incredibility because it is recast with the assumptions of the Corinthian enthusiasts. That is, even if he were to allow his apostolic work to be shaped by the assumptions of those Corinthians who are not content with speaking, but insist the aposde must speak with eloquence surpassing human capabilities . . . , yet . . . unmotivated by άγπάπη it would be for nought. 27 Paul ultimately believes that love, not freedom or knowledge, is the final watchword for Christians, both as a key to understanding the mysteries of the faith and as a guide to behavior.

A Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians
Hans Conzelmann

The wording does not in itself require the equating of angels’ language and speaking with tongues. Moreover the expression can also be understood as a mere hyperbole: and if I had at my command every linguistic possibility even to the language of God. Yet Paul is presumably after all thinking realistically of the language of angels, cf. 2 Cor 12:4*, and further Asc. Is. 7.15–37; Test. Job 48–50

Thiselton on Hermeneutics
Some of our six arguments may also apply to the question of whether the Corinthians might have thought of tongues as a heavenly' language, of the kind discussed by Lietzmann. The suggestion is purely speculative, since with the possible exception of 13:1, there seem to be no traces in these chapters of any explicit claim by the Corinthians that they were actually speaking the language of heaven itself. Since appeal cannot now be made to Acts 2 for support of this view, it tends to fall between two stools, and although Ellis has recently urged that it remains a possibility, scholarly opinion does not in general favour it.' Moreover, some of the six arguments brought forward above still need an answer. For example, in what sense, if any, could the use of the language of heaven be described as childish? All the same, our argument does not necessarily depend on the rejection of this theory. Conzelmann, we may note, rejects this view on the ground that "if the speaker with tongues speaks the language of heaven, then the angels speak "natural" languages'. This objection may seem to require an undue degree of sophistication in linguistic theory from Paul and the Corinthians. However, in another respect it underlines the point that even if this improbable view of glossolalia were accepted, it is hardly the kind of 'speech' that can be 'translated". It would still remain a matter of "putting it into words'.
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Here in our view Paul begins with the notion of tongues as that which gives expression to the secret yearnings and praise of the depths of the human heart, and escalates to a hypothesis considered at Corinth but not necessarily endorsed by Paul that tongues is the angelic language of heaven.


First--Second Corinthians
By Craig S. Keener

Some have argued that Paul or the Corinthians believed their tongues-speech angelic (cf. T. Job 48-50), hence perhaps a sign of realized eschatology, or of participation in the heavenly liturgy (cf. 2 Cor 12:4; Col 2:18; Rev. 4:2-3,8;7:11; 4Q403 frg. 1, 1.1-6). But would angelic tongues pass away at Jesus's return (13:8-12; indeed, some, at least, expected angels to speak Hebrew among themselves)? More likely, angelic speech merely reinforces the hyperbole of one able to speak “all” tongues (like one who knows everything or removes mountains, 13:2).


Showing the Spirit
D A Carson

The construction of the first clause 22 probably signals intensity toward the end: "If I speak in the tongues of men and even of angels. . . ." It is not clear whether either Paul or his readers thought their gifts of tongues were the dialects of angels. A few interesting Jewish parallels make this possible;23 but Paul may be writing hyperbolically to draw as sharp a contrast as possible with love. I suppose a pedant might argue that they cannot be the tongues of angels, because in that case it would be silly for tongues to cease when perfection comes since that is precisely when we are more likely to encounter angels! But I shall leave the question as to what language or languages we shall speak in the new heaven and on the new earth to those more gifted in speculation than I. Paul's point is relatively simple. No matter how exalted my gift of tongues, without love I am nothing more than a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
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Certainly verse 2 finds Paul playing with hypothetical superlatives. He himself does not think that any prophet "can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge," since he goes on to say that at present "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (13:9). If there is a difference between"mysteries" and "knowledge" in this context, the former refers to the eschatological situation and the latter to the entire redemptive purpose of God; but Paul may not be making nice distinctions. 126 The point is that even the gift of prophecy, no matter how much reliable information comes from it, is intrinsically valueless if it operates without love. So also the gift of faith—as in 12:9, this refers not to saving faith but to something more specialized, such as the faith that can move mountains—has no intrinsic value. Again, however, Paul's conclusion is even more shattering: not only are the spiritual gifts exercised without love of no value, but, says Paul, "I am nothing"—"spiritually a cipher"127 But Paul is not content to draw examples only from the more spectacular or "miraculous" of the you o foucato (charismata). In verse 3 he goes on to incredibly self-sacrificing philanthropy 28 and even personal martyrdom by fiery ordeal (if that reading is adopted as correct), 29 like the martyrdom of Maccabean Jews130 or the three heroes of Daniel 3:28. The result is the same: without love, gain nothing. My deeds of philanthropy and my resolute determination to remain loyal to the truth even in the face of martyrdom cannot in themselves attest my high spiritual position or the superiority of my experiences with the Holy Spirit. In all of this, if there is no love, gain nothing.

Commentary on the New Testament
Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer

The meaning is: Supposing that I am a speaker with tongues, from whom all possible kinds of articulate tongues might be heard, not simply those of men, but also - far more wonderful and exalted still - those of the angels. Paul thus describes the very loftiest of all conceivable cases of glossolalia. The tongues of angels here spoken of are certainly only an abstract conception, but one in keeping with the poetic character of the passage, as must be admitted also with respect to the old interpretation of angelic languages,.

First, Second Corinthians
By Robert E. Picirilli

Verse 1 apparently refers to the gift of speaking with tongues, a gift possessed by Paul (14:18) "but not valued as highly by him as it appears to have been by his readers" (Barrett 299). The "tongues languages of men" refers to the gift; the "and of angels" is an addition to heighten further Paul's point. (In the Greek order, the two do not stand side by side as in English.) The sense seems to be this: If I exercise the gift of speaking in the languages of men, even if I speak in the languages of angels. That pattern occurs in all three verses: to the normal gift is added something beyond the normal as an even more startling possibility.

Commentary on First Corinthians
Robert Gundry

He has doled out his possessions, perhaps all of them, but hasn't given over his very body to the point of actually dying. This part of his statement is a suppose-so. Similarly, he has some faith, but not all faith. He hasn't removed a mountain (compare Mark 11:23; Matthew 17:20; 21:21). He has a prophetic gift and therefore understands some secrets and some knowledge, but he isn't omniscient (see Romans 11:33–35). By the same token, he speaks with the tongues of human beings (14:18), but not with the tongues of angels, which falls into the suppose-so category along with omniscience, mountain-moving faith, and body-giving. But without love, even speaking in angelic as well as unlearned human languages would grate on the ears. Without love, even omniscience and mountain-moving faith would count for nothing. And without love, even investing in other people not only all one's possessions but also one's very own body would give grounds for boasting but not bring any profit at the final judgment bar. Love must imbue all these activities, and those associated with the remaining Spiritual gifts; for only love makes speaking in tongues musical, prophecy and understanding helpful, and self-sacrifice profitable.

Holman New Testament Commentary - 1 & 2 Corinthians
By Richard L., Jr. Pratt

13:1. First, Paul touched on speaking in tongues. This issue topped his list because of the overemphasis some Corinthians had placed on this gift of the Spirit. He described the gift here as tongues of men and of angels. The grammatical construction of the original language does not indicate that Paul was claiming to have done this. He spoke entirely hypothetically, without reference to whether he had done any of these things. Obviously he had not surrendered his “body to the flames” (13:3) as he said later. Further, neither he nor anyone else but the omniscient God ever had, could, or would “fathom all mysteries and all knowledge” (13:2). On the other hand, he did have the “gift of prophecy” (13:2), and he did “speak in tongues” (14:18). Grammatically, no evidence exists that Paul believed it was possible to speak in the tongues … of angels. Nowhere else does the Bible provide evidence of such a possibility.
Even so, such an extraordinary gift would profit nothing without love. Paul puts the matter in striking terms, confessing that without love accompanying such an extraordinary gift, he would amount to nothing but a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. His special gift, devoid of love, would amount to meaningless clamor. This must have shocked the Corinthian readers. Those who exalted themselves because of their gift of tongues must have looked like fools.
13:2. Second, Paul spoke of prophecy. Paul held this gift in high esteem. But he imagined the gift in a greater form than it had ever appeared in human history. Suppose he were to have the gift of prophecy to such a degree that he could fathom all mysteries and all knowledge. Prophets know things that are hidden from others because they receive revelation from God, but no prophet has ever had such omniscience. Yet, without love he would be nothing, even if he knew every divine secret.
Third, Paul raised the gift of faith. In this case, he did not have in mind saving faith that every believer exercises. Instead, he spoke of a special ability to trust and believe God to do great miracles. Paul described this faith as the ability to move mountains. The allusion to Jesus’ words is evident (Mark 11:23). It would be astonishing for Paul to have had the ability to move mountains through his faith. Nevertheless, even this dramatic ability would amount to nothing without love for other
13:3. Fourth, Paul imagined himself giving all he possessed to the poor. This may allude to Jesus’ words to the rich young ruler (Mark 10:21), or it may refer to the early church’s practice of selling their possessions to feed the church (Acts 2:44–45). Paul, however, was not wealthy. He had also demonstrated his willingness to go hungry and homeless. In all likelihood, Paul focused more on the benefit to others that such an act would produce, not on the sacrifice. Even such a beneficial act would profit him nothing if he did not do it out of love.
Fifth, Paul imagined that he might surrender his body to the flames. Some textual evidence supports an alternative reading followed by the NRSV: “hand over my body so that I may boast.” It seems most likely that he imagined a situation of religious persecution in which he would be called upon to die. Or, Paul may have thought of his own trials and persecutions short of death. The words, I gain nothing, may apply to one situation as well as to the other.
Throughout this portion of the chapter, Paul addressed several hypothetical situations in which he might do the most remarkable things imaginable. It seems commonsensical that these experiences should have value in themselves. But Paul responded that without Christian love these experiences amount to nothing, just like the person who performs them.
Paul followed Jesus, who placed “love your neighbor as yourself” second only to “love the Lord your God” (Matt. 22:37–40). The command to love one another is the second most important law of Scripture. It is no wonder Paul argued that without love for others all spiritual gifts are worthless.

Abingdon New Testament Commentaries | 1 Corinthians
By Richard A. Horsley

In verses 1-3, presenting himself as a hypothetical example, Paul first mockingly exaggerates both the Corinthians' favorite spiritual gifts and his own central values and commitment, and then suddenly deflates them. Perhaps by rehearing the words and phrases stacked one upon another, we may sense the exaggeration and excess (in italics): "If I speak with the tongues of men, and even of angels . . . ; if I possess prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains' and “if I give away all my possessions and if I hand over my own body' (AT). Moreover, angels always have a hyperbolic function in Paul's letters (cf. 4:9; Gal 1:8; 4:14), and “to remove mountains' is a grotesque metaphor, and actually giving over one's body in martyrdom did not come into prominence until several generations later. Paul's own tongue is squarely in his cheek as he dictates.
The textual variants in verse 3 may signal yet another aspect of Paul's irony. "Boast' is the oldest and most difficult reading. But the meaning? A possible way of reading the NRSV's primary translation is to understand Paul as mocking his own practice of devoting his whole life and energy to his mission. Another possibility is to read it as an aside: "let me boast just for once.” In that case, Paul would be distancing himself from his suddenly high-blown "genre,' poking fun at his temporarily grandiloquent style and pretentious offering of sublime ideas.
On the other side of the deflation, “but do not have love,' he is clearly mocking his own emphasis on faith and his own poverty and refusal to accept support (see on 9:15) as well as the Corinthians' excitement over tongues and their passion for gnosis. Even if one had all knowledge she or he would be nothing (cf. 1:26-29). Even if he sacrifices his own life he gains nothing.

Fanning the Flame: Probing the Issues in Acts
By Mark E. Moore

The second key passage is 1 Corinthians 13:1. Here Paul mentions angelic tongues. If Paul spoke in angelic tongues, should we not also expect to? There’s the catch -- Paul never claimed to speak in an angelic tongue.[17] 1 Corinthians 13:1 is both hypothetical and hyperbolic. In other words, Paul is exaggerating to make a point. This hypothetical angelic tongue begins a series of statements contrasting the value of super-miraculous stuff with the superior value of love. The fact is, Paul never "knew all mysteries,” "moved mountains,” "gave all his possessions to the poor,” or "offered his body to be burned.” If he did not do anything else in his hypothetical/hyperbolic list, why should we assume he spoke in the language of an angel? Is it possible that he did? Certainly. Is it certain that he did? Hardly. To base the dominant exercise of glossolalia on such a nebulous statement is tenuous.

First Corinthians
By Raymond F. Collins, Daniel J. Harrington

Along with the rhetorical devices of gradation Paul's argument profits from the use of metaphor, including hyperbole, which is a kind of metaphor (cf. Aristotle, Art of Rhetoric 3.11.15), and comparison. Verse 1 uses the striking metaphors of angelic speech and sounding brass to speak of the gift of tongues, a charism Paul himself enjoyed.
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1. If I speak in the tongues of humans and even of angels, and do not have love: Paul begins his digression on love with a reference to ordinary speech and speaking in tongues. Speaking (cf. ch. 14) is the counterpoint of what he will have to say about love. The gift of speaking in tongues was quite visible and highly esteemed among the Corinthians. Paul claimed that he had the ability to speak in tongues even more than the Corinthians did (14:6, 18). J. G. Sigountos ("Genre," 252) takes "and of angels" as a hyperbolic expression, but Paul's phrase appears to designate the phenomenon of speaking in tongues. Parallels in the Testament of Job confirm that this is the connotation of Paul's phrase. His mode of expression follows a kind of "from the lesser to the greater" rhetorical construction in the form of gradation. His use of the rhetorical device of klimax emphasizes the gift of speaking in tongues.


1 Corinthians: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture (New American Commentary)
Mark Taylor

The first unit, 13:1-3, opens with three parallel conditional clauses' and a threefold assertion that apart from love spiritual gifts amount to nothing. Paul affirms that though he could speak with languages, both human and divine, possess prophetic powers, fathom all mysteries and knowledge, have mountain moving faith, benevolently give to the poor, and give his body in sacrifice, he is nothing if he does not have love. Whereas the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues occur last in the previous list of gifts, here tongues occurs first. The reason may be linked to Paul's rhetorical strategy, a progression from the lesser to the greater (cf. 12:31, "eagerly desire the greater gifts).
Tongues is mentioned first here because it is the least beneficial when uninterpreted. The repetition of the phrase "but have not love" elevates love above all gifts as "the most excellent Way" (12:31b).

13:1. Paul begins by hypothetically claiming that if he could speak with the tongues of men and of angels he is nothing if he does not have love. While it is possible that the phrase "tongues of men" refers to human eloquence' and "tongues of angels" refers to the gift of tongues, it is more likely in context that Paul refers only to the spiritual gift of tongues (languages) and heightens the rhetorical impact by referring to "tongues of angels" by way of hyperbole. This is not to say that there is no such thing as a "heavenly tongue," or to deny that the Corinthians themselves may have thought of the gift of tongues in this way. The point of Paul's statement is not to establish different kinds of tongues' but rather to emphasize that the gift, if exercised apart from love, is meaningless noise.' The ambiguity of Paul's reference to the "resounding gong" or "clanging cymbal" has resulted in a number of possible interpretations. However, even if the reference is somewhat ambiguous, the essential meaning of the hypothetical example is clear. The term translated "gong" by the NIV was used of various kinds of metals but mainly bronze or brass. Based on a few references in Greco-Roman literature, Harris and Klein suggest that Paul refers to the acoustic vase used in the theaters in order to project and amplify sound. Portier-Young has recently challenged this interpretation by suggesting that both the resounding brass (gong) and the clanging cymbal describe the same thing. The clanging cymbal simply clarifies what is intended by the resounding gong. In the biblical tradition the cymbal was never played solo but always in conjunction with other instruments. By using the metaphor Paul is urging the tongues-speakers to use their gifts for the edification of the church.' Still others suggest that Paul intends comparison instead of disjunction so that the text should read, "I have become as sounding brass rather than a resounding cymbal."' Some see in the mention of the "clanging cymbal" a reference to pagan worship.'

13:2. From tongues Paul moves on to prophecy, knowledge, and faith. Knowing all mysteries may be a separate gift from prophecy, but it could also be coordinate with it. In others words, prophecy includes insight into the mysteries of God. Paul, of course, does not know all mysteries nor does he possess all knowledge (13:9). He clearly exaggerates to make a point and presents a hypothetical scenario. Paul did have the gift of prophecy, he did have insight into the mysteries disclosed in the gospel, and he did possess great faith, even to the point of effecting miracles (Acts 14:3; 16:16–24; 19:11; 28:3–6; Rom 15:19; 2 Cor 12:12). In 14:6 Paul hypothetically describes himself as bringing teaching, revelation, knowledge, and prophecy to the Corinthians in assembly (cf. 14:37–38). In his mission to Corinth Paul announced the "mystery of God" (2:1). He, along with other apostles and gifted prophets (teachers), taught God's hidden wisdom (2:7) and were stewards (administrators) of the mysteries of God (4:1). Even in the letter itself, Paul makes known a "mystery" regarding the transformation of believer's mortal bodies (15:51; see also Rom 11:25; 16:25; 2 Thess 2:7). The reference to a faith that could remove mountains, an idiom for great faith, resonates with the teaching of Jesus and may be derived from it (see Matt 17:1920; 21:21; Mark 1:22-24; Luke 17:6). Even though Paul possessed these gifts, the repetition of the word "all" functions as hyperbole to make a point.' Paul is saying that even if he possessed these gifts in perfection, without love he would be nothing.
13:3. In the third and final hypothetical example Paul asserts that even the ultimate in self-sacrifice profits nothing apart from love. The giving away of one's possessions, even the offering of one's very life apart from love ultimately profits nothing. This Verse Contains One of the most difficult textual Variants in the New Testament. The NIV reads, "and surrender my body to the flames" (cf. NASB, "surrender my body to be burned"). The more recent NIV2011 (cf. also the NRSV, HCSB) follows the editors of the Greek New Testament and adopts a variant reading, "and give over my body to hardship, that I may boast."
The Greek terms for "burn" and "boast" are very close in the Greek.' Many agree that "boast" is the more likely reading, although there are significant detractors.' If "boasting" is the correct reading, what does Paul mean, especially in a letter where boasting is one of the key problems in Corinth? Although Paul often refers to boasting disparagingly, he also uses the term on occasion with reference to his ministry (2 Cor 8:24; Phill 2:16; 1 Thess 2:19; also Rom 5:2-3; 1 Cor 1:29-31; 9:15; 2 Cor 2:14). Fee, who is a proponent of this interpretation, suggests that in 13:3 "this final item is most likely a genuine reflection on his own ministry, in which he is referring to the kinds of bodily sufferings of which he "boasts' in 2 Cor 11:23-29 and 12:10, which also help to bring about his greater "boast,' their salvation." Another intriguing aspect of this passage is the mention of giving possessions and giving oneself, either in martyrdom or for the cause of the gospel, alongside the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecy, knowledge, and faith. Does Paul consider extreme sacrifice to be a gift of the Spirit? Ciampa and Rosner think so, "The Context makes clear that the actions mentioned here are understood to reflect the practice of spiritual gifts ... not as clear whether or not they are embodiments of one or two of the gifts mentioned in 12:8-10 or 12:28-30." Whether or not 13:3 should be understood as a "gift" in the traditional sense, I would submit that such actions are most certainly a "manifestation of the Spirit." We may sometimes think too narrowly in restricting a "spiritual gift" to something possessed.

A Bible Handbook to the Acts of the Apostles
By Mal Couch

It has been suggested that Paul allows for a second kind of tongues when he speaks of the "tongues of angels," that is, ecstatic utterances (1 Cor. 13:1). However, the word glossa is not used to speak of ecstatic utterances in any other place, and such a definition here would be against the established meaning of the word. Even if glossa were used of ecstatic utterances, that does not establish the fact that this is what is meant by the tongues of angels. That would be a rather large leap in logic because we do not know if angels speak in a language that is significantly different from human languages. Could it be that they speak in one of our human languages?
Anytime angels speak in the Bible it is in a language that is known to the human hearers, even in the case of the apostle John, who heard them speak in heaven in the book of Revelation. Furthermore, it must be remembered that the apostle Paul is using hyperbole (hypothetical exaggeration) in 1 Corinthians 13. In that chapter, he is simply emphasizing the essential place of love in the use of spiritual gifts. He states that, even if he knew everything or gave his body to be burned and he did it without love, then such matters would be without value.
The fact of the matter is that Paul did not know everything, did not give his body to be burned, and did not speakin an angelic language. It is unwise to build a doctrinal position on hypothetical exaggeration, particularly when it makes one go against the established meaning of words. It is best to conclude that the gift of tongues is the ability to speak in known human languages which are unknown to the speaker and to avoid the inclusion of ecstatic utterances in the definition.

Keep in Step with the Spirit
By J I Packer

Of a piece with Kuyper's guess is the view, often met, that Paul saw Christian glossolalia as "tongues of angels" (1 Cor. 13:1), angelic as distinct from human language. But while this, like so much else that is proposed in the discussion of 1 Corinthians 12–14, is not absolutely impossible, Paul's words in 13:1 are sufficiently explained as a rhetorical hyperbole meaning simply "no matter how wonderful a performance my glossolalia may be."

Ecstatic Utterances
R Gundry

Even more to the point, if one reads further it becomes apparent that the speaking in tongues of angels does not at all have to indicate factual reality in Paul’s mind (Paul uses ean . with the subjunctive throughout verses 1-3) and indeed probably does not: "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, ... if I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned ... ( Cor xiii.2f., italics mine). As matters of fact, Paul does not claim to possess all prophetic insight and knowledge or to have all faith or to have given up all his possessions or to have delivered his body to be burned (obviously not, since he is writing a letter!). These are "suppose-so" statements only partially true of Paul's experience. By the same token, although Paul claims to speak in tongues, it is not necessary to infer that he claims to speak in the tongues of angels. In fact, the analogy of the following parallel expressions indicates that he does not here claim to do so. Speaking with the tongues of angels corresponds to the unreal "all's" in the succeeding statements. In other words, just as Paul lays claim to some prophetic insight (so chapter xiv) but not all, so also he writes that he miraculously speaks in some foreign languages (tongues of men) but not in all (for he does not speak in angelic tongues). His argumentative point is that even if the latter were true, it would still be profitless without love.'

First Corinthians (Paideia: Commentaries on the New Testament)
By Pheme Perkins

The phrase could be poetic hyperbole on Paul’s part, a way of saying that no speech, human or heavenly, counts for anything without love (Fitzmyer 2008, 492). Or it could be an allusion to Jewish mystical traditions in which a visionary ascends into the heavens and hears or participates in angelic Worship. Paul claims a comparable experience but refuses to (or cannot) disclose its content in 2 Cor. 12:1-4: “I heard the unutterable words that human beings are not permitted to utter" (12:4). The comparison of speech without love to a chalkos echon (noisy bronze) is not necessarily referring to a particular instrument (often translated "gong,” so NRSV). Bronze plates often served as sounding boards or amplification for various instruments in theaters (Vitruvius, De architectura 5.3.8; Fitzmyer 2008, 492).

Miraculous Gifts: Are They for Today?
By Thomas R. Edgar

A careful reading of the passage shows that Paul does not state that he or anyone else speaks or has ever spoken the languages of angels. He says, "If I speak the tongues of men and angels." This is the first in a series of three parallel statements (verses 1-3) all of which begin with "if" (Ean, if, verse 1; kai eam, and if, verse 2; kan, and is, verse 3). The "if" presents:
... mere objective possibility connected with the future, "If I should speak with the tongues of men and of angels," not "Though I speak" (AV). . . . "Supposing that I had all the powers of earthly and heavenly utterance."
Each of the parallel statements begins with "if" and ends with the expression "but I do not have love. . . ." The first part of each is a hyperbole (exaggeration) referring to a spiritual gift or quality and to an extreme or theoretical example of its application. The statement, therefore, points out that not only exercise of the gift or spiritual quality apart from love is profitless to the exerciser, but even using it to such exaggerated or extreme (theoretical) use is also profitless. This argument is clearest in the second example (verse 2), where Paul says, "If I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." The first part of the statement, "If I have prophecy," refers to something (prophecy) which Paul and others actually had.
However, the second part, "and if I know all mysteries and all knowledge" refers to that which no one exercises or will exercise. In this very passage (verse 9) Paul states that now (in this life) we only have partial prophecy and partial knowledge. No one knows all mysteries and all knowledge. This second part of the hyperbole continues with the statement, "if I have all faith so that I move mountains." This also is a theoretical extreme which no one possesses or exercises. Prophecy is the basic gift; "knowing all mysteries and all knowledge" and "having all faith" are the hypothetical, unobtainable extremes or exaggerations which Paul uses to convey his point that even such exaggerated cases would profit nothing apart from love. The basic gift is first; the extremes are then connected by "and." In effect Paul says, "If I have prophecy and even if I could go all the way to the extreme of knowing all mysteries and knowledge, and having all faith so that I could move mountains, and did not have love, I am nothing." The third example (verse 3) functions in the same way, thereby supporting this interpretation. Paul states, "If I donate all of my possessions (Paul may have done this-cf. Philippians 3:8)" and I hand over my body to be burned (Paul had not actually done so), but I do not have love . . . ." While it is not impossible to do so, Paul had not performed the more extreme of these examples (handing over his body to be burned). The first action is probable; the second is connected to the first by "and;" it is an extreme action even if a possibility.' This same structure functions in Paul's first example: "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels." "Tongues of men" refers to the basic gift or quality. Connected to this by "and," the expression "tongues of angels" refers to the exaggeration or hypothetical extreme which is impossible to do, or at least which Paul has not done. Paul says, "If I exercise the gift of tongues and, in fact, could even go to such an extreme as to speak angel language, it means nothing (it is mere noise) apart from love." Each of these three examples is parallel in structure and in thought. The second is very clear. The fact that the three fit the same pattern is definite evidence that they are all, in fact, examples of hyperbole. Each of the three begins with "if" and an example of a probable spiritual activity. In each case this is followed by an extreme or hypothetical spiritual activity (connected to the first statement by "and"). Each of the examples closes with the statement "but I do not have love." Paul uses these three examples to prove his point that even if he could go to such unusual extremes, apart from love, there would be no profit to him. The extremes are: "speaking in angel languages"; "knowing all mysteries and all knowledge and having all faith"; and "giving the body to be burned." The second item, as we have seen, is impossible. The third is very rare, and Paul himself had not done so. Paul refers to the first item (speaking in the tongues of angels) in the same way as the others-i.e., as a theoretical possibility or at the least something he had not practiced. This is the obvious sense of Paul's discussion in I Corinthians 13: 1-3.
As matters of fact, Paul does not claim to possess all prophetic insight and knowledge or to have all faith or to have given up all his possessions or to have delivered his body to be burned (obviously not, since he is writing a letter!). These are "suppose-so" statements only partially true of Paul's experience. By the same token, although Paul claims to speak in tongues, it is not necessary to infer that he claims to speak in the tongues of angels. In fact, the analogy of the following parallel expressions indicates that he does not here claim to do so. Speaking with the tongues of angels corresponds to the unreal "all's" in the succeeding statements. In other words, just as Paul lays claim to some prophetic insight (so chapter xiv) but not all, so also he writes that he miraculously speaks in some foreign languages (tongues of men) but not in all (for he does not speak in angelic tongues). His argumentative point is that even if the latter were true, it would still be profitless without love.' Rather than proof that Paul spoke in "angel" or "heavenly" languages, this passage is evidence that he spoke in the "tongues (languages of men."

Speaking in Tongues
Gerhard Hasel

We must recognize that Paul spoke hypothetically in 1 Cor 13:1 as the Greek conditional clause indicates. Paul uses the conditional participle ean followed by the subjunctive. This type of conditional clause in the Greek language is one that does not speak about reality. Paul seems to say with hyperbole that if all linguistic possibilities including angelic speech were at his disposal and yet he lacked love it would mean nothing. The supposition is that Paul does not speak in the tongue of angels

Understanding Spiritual Gifts: A Verse-by-verse Study of 1 Corinthians 12-14
by Robert L. Thomas

13:1 - Futility of tongues Without love. First, attention in combating overemphasis on spiritual gifts naturally goes to what the Corinthians had misconstrued the most, the gift of tongues. Paul uses himself to illustrate and create a hypothetical case, one that had not and could not become actual. He pictures a situation of personally possessing the gift of tongues to the extent of being able to speak the languages of all men everywhere. He even goes beyond this and conceives of an ability to communicate in celestial languages of angels as Well, whatever these languages might be (see 2 Cor. 12:4 and Rev. 14:2-3 for possible examples). Here is a case of ultimate linguistic ability that was never realized by Paul or anyone else (though Paul was richly endowed along this line, 1 Cor. 14:18). This is clearly beyond any claim the readers could make about their own facility with tongues.

Prophecy and Inspired Speech in Early Christianity
Christopher Forbes

The following contentions are advanced in favour of (a): the parallel with Luke suggests a priori that a miraculous gift of language is intended, as does the closely related terminology. The Greek y\Gooa, like the English "tongue", can mean little else in this context, and the related gift, "interpretation" (1 Corinthians 12.30, 14.5, 13, etc.), is most naturally understood in its primary sense of (inspired) "translation". Paul's explicit statement, "If I speak in the tongues of men and angels" (13.1) is clearly central here. Likewise important is his argument that "If I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner (Bdipfbapos) to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me" (14.11). It is further urged that the plain meaning of Paul's quotation from Isaiah 28. 11-12, in ch. 14.20ff, has to do with foreign languages.
Clearly the case in favour of angelic languages also appeals to several of these passages, though 1 Corinthians 13.1a, "the tongues of men", is something of a puzzle, unless it is understood only as a parallel to ch. 14 vv. 7-8, "even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp", and the language metaphor is de-emphasised. This case is usually urged with reference to the belief in divine languages in the Hellenistic world (for which see Chapter 7), or the belief in angelic languages expressed in some Jewish intertestamental works (for which see the Appendix). Those who wish to argue that only angelic languages (not some unspecified mixture of angelic and human languages) are what Paul intends his readers to understand are compelled to ignore 1 Corinthians 13.1a, "the tongues of men", or avoid its force by arguing it means non-glossolalic speech. Those who wish to argue in favour of human languages only must argue that 13.1b, "and angels", is hyperbole, in parallel with understanding "all mysteries and all knowledge", and surrendering one's body to the flames, in vv. 2-3.
It would seem to me that the widely held view that Paul must primarily mean heavenly languages is implausible, being as it is based heavily on the phrase "and angels" in 1 Corinthians 13.1, which does look like a rhetorical flourish. "Or even those of angels" may well be the sense Paul intended here: clearly his is not really claiming "all mysteries and all knowledge", or to have sold all that he has. The Jewish parallels for the concept of angelic languages are interesting but not finally convincing (see the Appendix for further discussion), and the theory puts altogether too much weight on one flimsy exegetical peg." Dunn's supporting argument, that "the analogy Paul uses in 14.10f between glossolalia and foreign language cannot be taken as evidence that Paul thought of glossolalia as foreign language" (a very similar suggestion is made by C.G. Williams, Tongues of the Spirit, Cardiff, 1981, p. 31) seems to me entirely false. Foreign languages, or, more precisely, the miraculous ability to speak foreign languages otherwise unknown to the speaker (the analogy, pace Williams, is not mere redundancy) is precisely what it suggests. It is true that one does not draw analogies between like phenomena, but between unlike; Paul is comparing naturally known languages with what he sees as special gifts of languages. Our two main contenders are unlearned human languages, as in Luke (and perhaps angelic languages as well), and inarticulate speech. Here I think the weight of argument inclines to the side of the "languages" interpretation. The common "inarticulate speech" view may be able to explain Paul's reference to speakers in different languages as being foreigners one to another as mere metaphor, like the reference to musical instruments. But the reference to "tongues of men" in 1 Corinthians 13.1 can hardly be so explained, and if it is allowed to remain, the presumption must be strong that Paul's reference to speakers of mutually foreign languages implies that foreign languages were what he thought glossolalists spoke. The point of the comparison with unclear bugle calls then becomes their failure to communicate, rather than simply their lack of clarity. Further, this interpretation is quite capable of taking up the positive points made in favour of the "inarticulate speech" view. Glossolalic languages spoken without love - that is, in an inconsiderate and arrogant fashion, as proof of spiritual achievement - might as well be just noise for all the good they do to the community.41

First Corinthians
By George T. Montague

By human and angelic tongues Paul is probably using hyperbole, intentional exaggeration, and the order of the Greek words even suggests that "if I speak with all the languages known to humanity, and even all the languages used by angels.” Angels praise God (Pss 103:20; 148:2), and a Jewish tradition held that they had their own languages. But angels were also bearers of heavenly messages. Thus the Corinthians might think that it is angelic language they are speaking when speaking in tongues, either to praise God or to convey a heavenly message. Interpretation, then (see 14:5), would be a rendering of the angelic prayer or message in understandable human language. In any case, the point is how useless such tongues would be without love.

Thessalonians, Corinthians, Galatians and Romans
J. W. McGarvey and Philip Y. Pendleton

[The apostle first compares love with that gift of tongues in which the Corinthians took so much [127] pride. The comparison shows that speaking with tongues, even if it were exercised in an unexampled manner, is utter emptiness unless accompanied by love. The gift of tongues, even when it attained its highest conceivable development, is inferior to the language of angels; but even if one spoke with all the gifts of language human or divine, his word, if loveless, would be but a vainglorious noise, or sounds without soul or feeling; such as come from pounding on some brazen gong or basin, or from cymbals, which are the lowest, most monotonous, least expressive of all musical instruments.

Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism - Apologetics Press
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

One final point on the matter of the “tongues of angels” merits mention. Even if the expression actually refers to angelic tongues that are nonhuman, it still is likely that tongue-speakers were incapable of speaking such languages. Why? Paul was speaking hypothetically and hyperbolically. No human being (with the exception of perhaps Jesus) has ever been able to speak in all human languages. For Paul to suggest such was to pose a hypothetical situation. It was to exaggerate the facts. So Paul’s meaning was: “even if I were capable of speaking all human languages—which I’m not.” Likewise, no human being has ever been able to speak the tongues of angels. So Paul’s meaning was: “even if I were capable of speaking the languages of angels—which I’m not.” This conclusion is supported further by the verse that follows the reference to the “tongues of angels.” There, Paul used two additional hypothetical events when he said, “if I…know all mysteries and all knowledge” and “if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains” (1 Corinthians 13:2). But no one on the planet (with the exception of deity) has understood all mysteries and all knowledge, nor has had faith that could literally remove mountains. Again, Paul was merely saying, “even if I could do such things—which I can’t.”

First Corinthians
B Ward Powers

If ἐάν (ean), the Greek hypothetical if which, as Alford's commentary explains, supposes a case which never has been exemplified. The tongues of men (ἄνθρωπος, anthropon) mean the actual languages spoken by human beings; and similarly and of angels would indicate speaking the language of angels. And note that certainly this is not something which Paul is claiming he can do.

The Problem Tongues in 1 Cor 14: A Reexamination
By B Zerhusen

First, careful examination of 1 Corinthians 14 reveals no references to "heaven" or "angels." We would expect some reference to such a fantastic ability of it were being practiced by the Corinthian language-speakers. All we have, however-and we shall examine it shortly-is a reference to angelic languages in 1 Corinthians 13:1.
...
Fourth, proponents of this view may appeal to Judean sources such as the Testament of Job as evidence that the problem languages of Corinth were angelic languages. Forbes observes that this work may have been redacted by Montanists, Christians, or Gnostics (183-87). There is another problem with appeals to Judean tradition and belief about angelic language. In Judean tradition there is also a belief that as the "holy tongue," Hebrew is the language (singular) of heaven. Harry M. Orlinsky provides an example of this mentality:
The idea that God and the angels spoke Hebrew is, of course, biblically derived ... what other language was employed in the Garden of Eden, and before the Fall and Dispersion of Man? ... and reference to this fact is found also, e.g., in the book of Jubilees, one of the oldest books in the Jewish 144 apocryphal literature. So that we should not be surprised when we learn that an l lth-century monk, who was getting old enough to realize that his days on earth were numbered, began hurriedly to study Hebrew, for he knew that after he died and went to heaven, he would have to speak and understand Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew, if he wanted to converse with the angels and with the notable worthies who had preceded him from this earth [426].
Why should the Testament of Job be determinative rather than the Hebrew as the language of heaven tradition ?

Careful examination of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 indicates a clear pattern found in all three verses. Paul beings with an actual ability or action ("speaking in the languages of men," " "prophesying," "having faith," "giving possessions"), which he then takes to the extreme ("speaking the languages of angels," "knowing all mysteries and having all knowledge," "moving mountains," "giving my body to be burned") to make the rhetorical and practical point that even at the zenith of the spectrum, without love these things are profitless. If this is a valid analysis of the Greek construction of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, we also have a major clue about the gift of languages and translation (1 Cor 12:10, 28, 30): these were abilities that involved human languages.

1 Corinthians
Simon J. Kistemaker

a. “If I speak in the tongues of men, even those of angels.” With this conditional statement, Paul indicates that he himself does not engage in tongue-speaking in public worship (14:19). He appears to be saying, “Suppose that I as the Lord’s apostle have the highest possible gift of tongues, those that men use, and those even that angels use—how you Corinthians would admire, even envy me and desire to have an equal gift!”2
The word tongues can be understood to mean known languages; but in context it appears to mean tongue-speech, which some Corinthians regarded as heavenly speech. We do not know what supernatural language angels speak (compare II Cor. 12:4; Rev. 14:1—3) or whether angels are able to understand human speech.3 Conversely, angels communicate with people in human terms that are frequently recorded in both the Old and New Testaments.

Glossolalia: The Gift of Tongues
By Dr. Nathan Ogan

If the expression "tongues of men and angels" (1 Corinthians 13:1) be appealed to, it is sufficient to note that the first three verses of the chapter have a pronounced hyperbolic character. While angels no doubt have languages of their own, the apostle no more implies that he expects the readers to use them than that he expects them to give their bodies to be burned (verse 3).'


Speaking in Tongues
Watson E. Mills

As regards the "tongues of angels" in this context, Paul does speak of the tongues of men as well. Further, ean with subjunctive, "if I speak in the tongues of angels," would not necessarily suggest factual reality; the supposition is that Paul does not speak in the tongue of angels, just as he has not all the powers to prophesy etc.


Exploring 1 Corinthians: An Expository Commentary
By John Phillips

Paul begins here with the need for love (1 Cor. 13:1-3). He raises two problems. First, there is the possibility one might possess great gifts-without love (13:1-2). For instance, one might possess great gifts of communication (13:1a). He might possess the ability to speak different tongues: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" (v. 1). The case is only supposed. The word though (if) is followed by the subjunctive mood, and it expresses a hypothetical but possible condition. The future will prove whether or not such was the case. The languages are known languages (Acts 2:7-8), human languages. We have no way of knowing whether or not angels speak a heavenly language, of their own. There is no reason why they should not do so. Paul is simply saying that although he were able to speak such a lofty language that in itself would prove nothing. The acid test of genuine Christianity is not language but love.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament
By Daniel B. Wallace

The fourfold condition is used in a broad way. Paul builds his argument from the actual (he does have prophetic powers) to the hypothetical (he does not understand all mysteries or have all knowledge [otherwise, he would be omniscient!]). This is his pattern for the first three verses of 1 Cor 13: to argue from the actual to the hypothetical. It is therefore probable that Paul could speak in the tongues of human beings, but not in the tongues of angels (v1). 1 Cor 13:1 then, offers no comfort for those who view tongues as a heavenly language.

1 Corinthians, 2010
Ciampa & Rosner

13: 1 This verse has played a remarkable role in some modern discussions of the viewpoints of the Corinthians and their theological problems. Those who conclude that the Corinthians were suffering from an overrealized eschatology have found in this verse a hint that they may have thought that by speaking in tongues they were already participating in angelic experience as all believers would upon the resurrection from the dead. This thought, that some Corinthians aspired to or imagined themselves to be participating in angelic life and experience, is also considered to be related to their abstinence from sexual relationships (7:1), among other things.22 We find the texts employed in support of such interpretations to have more convincing interpretations that do not depend on overrealized eschatology as the key background issue.
Some interpreters have suggested that by speaking in human or angelic tongues Paul refers to "sublime oratory," picking up on the theme of wise and lofty speech from the first two chapters. 23
There does not seem to be any reason to think we are restricted to just one or the other [human or angelic languages], although the rhetorical pattern would suggest that speaking in tongues would most frequently entail speaking of (unknown) human languages, with the ability to speak angelic languages seen as an even more wonderful version or extension of the same gift.

Many of the better contemporary commentaries on Acts (see Keener) and First Corinthians should point out that the words of praise that the 120 were speaking were being directed to the Father, which means that they were not providing the crowd with a supposed evangelistic message, which is an important point to understand as it completely derails any cessationist attempt to say that tongues were intended to evangelise the lost.

You misunderstand. When cessationists say that tongues were used to evangelize the lost they don't mean the gospel is presented in tongues. Rather the gift of tongues (miraculously speaking a foreign language), like the gifts of healing and miracles, was used as a sign to attract unbeleivers (Mark 16:17-18,20), the same as it was at Pentecost. It was a tool to aid evangelism.




 
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swordsman1

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Let’s look at how commentaries can be both a friend and a “foe” and why it is important to spend a bit more time investigating what a commentator means in say 1Cor 12 by going to his commentary on chapters 13 & 14:

John Trapp Complete Commentary (1656) link

If we look at how Trapp understood tongues, we will see from 12:28 and 14:2 that he views tongues as being of those who are talented in that they can speak multiple articulate human languages during their everyday activities. So his understanding of tongues is hardly helpful, though from within his context his point that their talents should be used for the common good is certainly relevant to their everyday lives:

1Cor 12:28
Ver. 28. Diversities of tongues] This comes in last, either to bid check to their pride, who gloried so much in their many languages; or because he meant to say more to it in the words following.
1Cor 14:2
Ver. 2. In an unknown tongue] So they that preach in a kind of a Roman English, and not in a low language to the people’s capacity.

Ah, the strawman fallacy. You can't deny that Trappe in 1656 unequivocally states that 'to profit withal' means to profit the community, so you attempt to knock him on oddities elsewhere in his commentary.

You could very well be right. If this is the case, then it seems that the Latin tradition has maintained a literal understanding of symphero for about 1700 years where it has unto profit.

Eh, the Latin Vulgate had "unto profit" for 1700 years? The Latin Vulgate was written in Latin not English. The clue is in the word 'Latin'.

For a start you have misrepresented the BGAG which follows a literal understanding of symphero, which you should very well know by now - very naughty indeed!!

No I have not misrepresented BDAG. I quoted the meaning that applies to 1 Cor 12:7 where it is explained as "A common term, both sg. and pl. in ins in ref. to contributions to the public good by civic-minded pers.". The same meaning that is given by the Mounce, Louw-Nida, and Friberg lexicons.

Again, you are misrepresenting (actually you are fibbing) as no Pentecostal or charismatic scholar would dare say that the Manifestations of the Spirit are only given to serve others; your comment is well, how can I say it . . .! This is why you need to read the entirety of a commentators views throughout chapters 12, 13 & 14 - but of course you might find this to be a bit inconvenient.

I never said that Pentecostal or charismatic scholars say that the gifts are only given to serve others. You are the one who is fibbing, not me. Of course they say tongues can be used privately. The way they attempt to reconcile this with 1 Cor 12:7 is by saying, as Fee does, it means the gifts are 'primarily' for the common good. But that is putting words into Paul's mouth, as he never made such a qualification in that verse.

It can be hard to label those who are either cessationist or hardcore-cessationists, where the hardcore variety are often referred to as being hard-cessationists and others as soft-cessationists.

You don't even understand the differences between cessationists. The very rare 'hard' cessationist is someone who believes all the spiritual gifts have ceased. The 'soft' cessationist is someone who believes only the miraculous and revelatory gifts have ceased. I am a soft cessationist. The reason you use the word 'hardcore' is to attempt to derogatively paint cessationists in a bad light, as you often do when you launch into one of your ad-hominem anti-cessationist rants when you can't refute an argument.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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MKJV:
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have prophecies, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so as to move mountains, and do not have charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I give out all my goods to feed the poor, and though I deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, I am profited nothing.

Here Paul says "speak the tongues of men" he could. And "of angels" not even of angels. This is possible. Paul had a prayer language a spiritual gift, whether angelic or not, it was not a known language and he could not understand it.

Paul could ask God and gain insights into any mystery, prophecy or knowledge that asking honoured God, and it was his in a short time. Or else why read his works? This is not omniscience to receive any relevant revelation. People in Heaven have much more access to all knowledge than Paul on Earth.

Paul referring to moving mountains, refers to the Gospel wording of Christ about having faith the size of a mustard seed. Was Jesus exaggerating?

In the Gospel Jesus asked a rich young man to give away all his goods to the poor.

Paul faced Roman authorities who actually did burn people to death after judgement as penalty.

I do not agree this is hyperbole.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Don't forget, as much as there are differences between the tongues of Acts 2 and congregational tongues (1Cor 12, 13 & 14) the account of Acts 2 was on the Day of Pentecost which is a non-repeatable event where the Holy Spirit was first given to the Church.

Hopefully the following two charts that I have produced will help clear this up for you. Though I do appreciate that those who say that the Holy Spirit fell upon the unbelievers so that they could understand what was being said in tongues has been done so with good intentions, but such zeal is simply unwarranted.

Acts 2 was the START, not the END.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Paul to Timothy writes of gifts he received when prayed for by the elders and women. By these in part he found his office and the place to fulfill it, which is true for all of us today. Today, we need find more than the full canon of scripture can reveal, to do God's will.
 
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Hillsage

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I think that we all agree that the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was the start of the Church, but what are you trying to point out?
:oldthumbsup: Yo bro. :)

One question; When do yo think the apostles were first saved or 'born again'?

And the only other thing I'd like to point out as I continue to check the progress of threads like this is; there is a difference between my spirit praying in its tongue to God, and the Holy Spirit coming upon me to manifest His tongues to others through me, just like His other manifestations/giftings. And it matters not whether that Holy Spirit tongue is of angels requiring the gift of interpretation, or if it is the tongue of men as on the day of Pentecost.

Even the translators make that distinction of God's Spirit and man's spirit with capital and small S in scripture. But in doing so they made enough capitalization errors to mess up theology to this day IMO. OK, that's my 2cents. Things were just really boring elsewhere Bibby...hope you don't mind. ;)
 
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1stcenturylady

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Don't forget, as much as there are differences between the tongues of Acts 2 and congregational tongues (1Cor 12, 13 & 14) the account of Acts 2 was on the Day of Pentecost which is a non-repeatable event where the Holy Spirit was first given to the Church.

Hopefully the following two charts that I have produced will help clear this up for you. Though I do appreciate that those who say that the Holy Spirit fell upon the unbelievers so that they could understand what was being said in tongues has been done so with good intentions, but such zeal is simply unwarranted.

3, 4, 9 and 10 are wrong.
 
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:oldthumbsup: Yo bro. :)

One question; When do yo think the apostles were first saved or 'born again'?
Hi Gids, it's good to be chatting with you.

As for this very ticklish question, I suppose that I could take a more pragmatic approach by saying that for those who believe that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is meant to be subsequent to our initial Salvation, then I would say that they are probably compelled to believe that they were Born Again the moment that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon them; otherwise, the concept of subsequence will collapse.

Now, theologically speaking, in my opinion this is where things change. From the little that we have to go on with the event of John 20:22, all that I could say is that this appears to be similar to how the Holy Spirit rested upon the early OT Prophets so that they could prophesy and where he would then depart. As for this being a Salvific event for the Apostles, then I would say that it was not, where their Salvation or initiation into the Kingdom of God occurred on the Day of Pentecost when they first received the Holy Spirit.

Even though I am a Pentecostal, this is what makes me a non-classical Pentecostal, in that I believe that the normative (but not compulsory) Biblical account of Salvation is that when we receive the Holy Spirit that the new initiate should be taught that they can immediately begin to praise the Father in tongues, but again, our New Covenant ability to be able to pray in the Spirit (tongues) is not mandatory for us to be Saved.

And the only other thing I'd like to point out as I continue to check the progress of threads like this is; there is a difference between my spirit praying in its tongue to God, and the Holy Spirit coming upon me to manifest His tongues to others through me, just like His other manifestations/giftings. And it matters not whether that Holy Spirit tongue is of angels requiring the gift of interpretation, or if it is the tongue of men as on the day of Pentecost.

Even the translators make that distinction of God's Spirit and man's spirit with capital and small S in scripture. But in doing so they made enough capitalization errors to mess up theology to this day IMO. OK, that's my 2cents. Things were just really boring elsewhere Bibby...hope you don't mind. ;)
Yes, I can understand the boring aspect rather well!

As to the Greek usage of spirit/Spirit, it does appear that when Paul sometimes uses the term spirit that it should be read as either "s/Spirit" or "the Spirit who is within me". As I am a dichotomist (or more properly a functional-dichotomist), then I do not see that man has a separate human spirit. This means that when the Holy Spirit speaks to the Father that it is always the Holy Spirit speaking through us and never a supposed 'spirit of man'. As to how it is common to hear people providing a word in a tongue and then having it translated where it is directed to the congregation I will follow this up in the next paragraph.

If I were to approach this question with a dose of delicacy, I could feign some uncertainty regarding how you stated “the Holy Spirit coming upon me to manifest His tongues to others through me” by asking, Sorry, so that we are clear, with what Scriptures are you referring to? This particular technique is useful in that while I wait for a reply I know full well that there are actually no Scriptures to quote.

Having for many years adhered to the formula tongues + interpretation = prophecy (and on this forum as well), when I came to the realisation that we have absolutely not a hint of Scriptural support for such a practice, I was then compelled to understand that this is something that we had gotten terribly wrong. I’m sure that my point is not lost on you in that this means that every time that someone has followed up a congregational tongue with an interpretation that has been directed toward either the congregation or an individual that it did not come from the Holy Spirit but from the flesh.

Thankfully, over the years I have never provided an interpretation to a tongue within the congregational setting which means that I have been able to inadvertently avoid committing this fallacy.

Edit: typo
 
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It has already been explained to you on numerous occasions that Paul did not speak in the language of angels. Paul uses five conditional IF statements in 1 Cor 13:1-3 which were both hypothetical (they were imagined scenarios, not things he actually did) AND hyperbole (the imagined scenarios were wildly exaggerated examples of each gift) - to make the point that even having spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love:
- tongues, even to the degree of speaking the language of angels...
- the gift of prophecy even to the degree of knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie becoming omniscient)...
- the gift of faith even to the degree of removing mountains...
- the gift of giving even to the degree of giving up ALL your possessions...
- and even giving up your own life...

....would all be to no avail without love.

None of those exaggerated hypothetical examples represent the normal operation of those gifts.
Hey, wait a minute, you’ve used the phrase “conditional IF statements”, which I realise that some commentators have also used to support their understanding that Paul did not supposedly speak in tongues, but if you use this particular expression then you need to understand that Pauls conditional statements relate to the lack or presence of love; if this is not understood then the whole purpose of chapter 13 collapses.

What the less astute or experienced reader may also fail to understand is with how we are supposed to use the terms hyperbole and hypothetical, most importantly, we need to be aware that these two terms can be both misused and abused by even commentators, though I suspect that some commentators will be rather free with their use to sort of muddy the waters to possibly placate those cessationist institutions that either support or even employ them. Of course this situation is not just the dilemma of the poor lacklustre cessationist scholar but also for those who are employed as Pentecostal theologians; as the adage goes, “there are ways of saying things – and – there are other ways of saying things”.

As for those who use hyperbole to describe Paul’s meaning then this is usually the result of a cessationist mindset or maybe that a commentator has simply not thought things through carefully enough; most importantly, the problem with using hyperbole is that it negates Paul’s thrust that love is the conditional element.

If they use the term hypothetical then things should change as conditions that are hypothetical are what we also call ‘what-if’ situations, where something may or may not occur depending on a given pre-condition, which in this case is with the lack or presence of love.

One of the things that I know that I struggle with is knowing what exactly someone means when they use the terms hyperbole or hypothetical as I am well aware that those who are less educated will regularly misuse them as they do not know how they are to be applied; then again, even commentators can at times be sloppy with there use where I will often leave a given commentary not knowing what the commentator meant to say.

1 Cor 13_1_3 (If I have not love).png
The 'tongues of men' are not the languages that Paul had learnt as you suppose. The context is spiritual gifts so the tongues he is referring to is the gift of tongues - miraculously speaking in foreign human languages. Even Pentecostalism's Gordon Fee admits that.

Here we go again, how can you even consider quoting a Pentecostal scholar such as Gordon Fee and yet you do not have the wherewithal to realise that what you are saying sounds odd, which sould be enough for any prudent person to undertake further investigation; it seems that your need to uphold your worldview has you making numerous mistakes, and oddly enough you keep making the same mistakes over and over.

As you seem to overly rely on Google Books you should probably avoid doing this as you are only quoting portions of what you think that individual scholars believe, which I trust that others would have also noticed if they made the effort to read through, what are often little more, than misquotes on your part.

As for this repeated false claim that Fee believes that tongues are given in a human language is nothing but absurd to say the least, let me help you on this point. As for your other quotes, as they are out of context then it is hard to know what they have said but with some of them (as with Kistemaker) you failed to notice that he did not agree with you.

The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Gordon D. Fee (1987) pp.596-599

(12:7) Different kinds of tongues. This is obviously the “controversial gift,” both then and now. If our interpretation of chap. 14 is correct, then the Corinthians’ singular preference for this manifestation is what lies behind this entire argument. Thus, after listing several equally visible and extraordinary manifestations of the Spirit, Paul includes their favorite as well, along with its companion, “interpretation.” As with prophecy, enough is said in chaps. 13-14 to give us a fairly good idea as to how Paul understood it. The following seem certain: (a) It is Spirit-inspired utterance; that is made explicit both in vv. 7 and 11 and in 14:2. (b) The regulations for its use in 14:27-28 make it clear that the speaker is not in “ecstasy” or “out of control.” Quite the opposite; the speakers must speak in turn, and they must remain silent if there is no one to interpret, (c) It is speech essentially unintelligible both to the speaker (14:14) and to other hearers (14:16). (d) It is speech directed basically toward God (14:2, 14-15, 28); one may assume, therefore, that what is “interpreted” is not speech directed toward others, but the “mysteries” spoken to God.

What is less certain is whether Paul also understood the phenomenon to be an actual language. In favor of such a view are (a) the term itself, (b) the need for “interpretation,” and (c) the evidence from Acts 2:5-11. In the final analysis, however, this question seems irrelevant. Paul’s whole argument is predicated on its unintelligibility to both speaker and hearer; he certainly does not envisage someone’s being present who would be able to understand it because it was also an earthly language. Moreover, his use of earthly languages as an analogy in 14:10-12 implies that it is not a known earthly language, since a thing is not usually identical with that to which it is analogous. Most likely, therefore, the key to Paul’s—and their—understanding lies in the term “the language of angels” in 13:1 (q.v.). On its usefulness or lack thereof to the community and the individual, see on 14:1-5 and 13-19.​


The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Gordon D. Fee (1987) pp.652-61

4. The Need for Intelligibility in the Assembly (14:1-25)

With this section (vv. 1-25) and the next (vv. 26-40) Paul proceeds at last to offer specific correctives to the Corinthians’ apparently unbridled use of tongues in the assembly. He began his argument with them by setting forth the broader theological framework in which these specifics are to be understood. In chap. 12 he argued for diversity, tongues being only one among many manifestations of the Spirit, who gives gifts to each as he wills for “the common good” (vv. 7-11). In chap. 13, reflecting on the theme of “the common good,” he insisted that none of them, himself included, counts for anything, no matter how “spiritual” they are, if they do not likewise manifest love. Now he puts these together by insisting that in the gathered assembly the single goal of their spiritual zeal should be love (v. 1), which, as in 8:1, is expressed in the language of “building up” the church (vv. 3-5, 12, 17, 26). This latter theme is developed in two ways: by insisting on intelligibility in the gathered assembly and by giving guidelines for order.


God’s Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul, Gordon Fee (1994) p.164

[12:7] Third, probably to give a proper balance to “each one,” he concludes with the reason for this great diversity: “for the common good.” By so doing he anticipates the concern of chs. 13 and 14, that in community the Spirit manifests himself for the building up of the entire community, not primarily for the benefit of the individual believer.291

Footnote: [291] That is not to say that the building up of the individual believer is no concern of Paul’s. To the contrary (see on 14:4). But the concern throughout this entire argument is with the effect of gifts in building up the community.


Paul, the Spirit and the People of God, Gordon D. Fee (1996) pp. 71

Second, the Spirit is also responsible for maintain a necessary and healthy diversity in the church. This is the basic concern of the arguments in 1 Corinthians 12. The Corinthians’ extraordinary and imbalanced emphasis on tongues as the evidence of a fully developed spirituality requires theological correction (chs. 12 and 13) before the specific abuse is corrected (ch. 14). Thus every paragraph in chapter 12 except for vv. 21-26 has this theme – the need for diversity in order for the community to be built up. The triune God himself illustrates – and serves as the basis for – this diversity-in-unity (vv. 4-6); and the Spirit in particular is responsible for its being shown forth among them, especially in the many manifestations of his presence “given to each one for the common good” (vv. 7-11). A body cannot be only one part (v. 14); that would be a monstrosity (vv. 15-20). The Spirit who is responsible for their being one body is also the basis for the many parts necessary for the body to function at all.

Significantly, the body imagery in Ephesians, with its concern for unity, focuses primarily on relationships within the church. In 1 Corinthians 12, however, the focus is mainly on the church as a community gathered for worship, which is true also of the temple imagery in 2:16-17. This difference in focus is due to the respective errors that were taking place within the gathered community . . . . . . .​


1 Corinthians Simon J. Kistemaker
a. “If I speak in the tongues of men, even those of angels.” With this conditional statement, Paul indicates that he himself does not engage in tongue-speaking in public worship (14:19). He appears to be saying, “Suppose that I as the Lord’s apostle have the highest possible gift of tongues, those that men use, and those even that angels use—how you Corinthians would admire, even envy me and desire to have an equal gift!”2
The word tongues can be understood to mean known languages; but in context it appears to mean tongue-speech, which some Corinthians regarded as heavenly speech. We do not know what supernatural language angels speak (compare II Cor. 12:4; Rev. 14:1—3) or whether angels are able to understand human speech.3 Conversely, angels communicate with people in human terms that are frequently recorded in both the Old and New Testaments.

In previous posts I have pointed out how important it is to not only find out what a given commentator has to say on an issue within a merely a select chapter and verse, but that we must attempt to gain an overall understanding of his views which means that their views must be checked across 1Cor 12, 13 & 14. Now I guess that your reliance on Google Books can be a bit problematic as it does not always cover each chapter, which means that you probably failed to notice (in red pp.452-53) where Kistemaker made a very important distinction between known languages and tongue-speech.

As I have a copy of Kistemaker’s 1 Corinthians (1993) I am well aware of his position, which is why I shall point you back to 1Cor 12:10 (p.426) where he qualifies his understanding of tongues – enjoy:​

1 Corinthians, Kistemaker (1993)

[p.426] The word tongue can mean either a known language (Acts 2:6, 8, 11) or tongue-speech (1 Cor. 14:2, 4, 28): in the present epistle, the word can signify either – the meaning depends on the context. In the commercial city of Corinth, where international visitors and temporary residents were numerous and where various languages were spoken, translators were in great demand. On the other hand, the Corinthian congregation also experienced the phenomenon of tongue-speaking. Tongue-speech alludes to an act of worship directed to God; but when other believers were present in Corinth, the message had to be interpreted for the benefit of the audience. To promote reverence in the worship service, Paul demanded that tongue-speech be edifying, intelligible, orderly, and controlled.

Notice that Paul writes the expression kinds of tongues. This point to both varieties of known languages (14:9-10) and tongue-speech. He attributes all these tongues and their interpretation to the work of the Holy Spirit (vv. 7, 11). Thus he indicates that the Spirit gives the interpreter of tongue-speech ability to understand and convey the meaning of the spoken message.

So that we can further clarify Kistemaker’s position regarding tongues we need to also go to 1Cor 14:2 (pp.477-78) – enjoy:

2. For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men [and women] but to God. For no one understands him, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries. 3. But he who prophesies speaks to men [and women] for their edification, encouragement, and consultation.

a. “For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men [and women] but to God,” Of the two gifts, prophecy and tongues, Paul takes the latter first and points out that speaking in a tongue is a private worship directed to God (see v. 4). Speaking to God in a tongue is comparable to personal prayer: The one who prays speaks to himself and to God (v. 28) and does so within the context of love. Accordingly, speaking in a tongue without interpretation does not communicate anything meaningful, because the people are unable to understand the words that are spoken. Granted that God knows every spoken word, his people are unable to understand these words and thus are not edified.

b. “For no one understands him, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.” Speaking and hearing are the two sides of the proverbial coin. When language is not understood, people cannot communicate. And a failure to communicate results in alienation for the people involved. According to the account in acts 2:4-11, everyone present in the temple courts was able to understand the messages proclaimed in many known languages by those filled with the Holy Spirit. But in the current text, Paul refrains from writing about interpreters. Instead he notes that the message spoken in a tongue without interpretation is directed not to people but to God.

The Greek word pneuma can be translated either “spirit” or “Spirit,” and translators are divided on this point. The term refers to either the human spirit or the Holy Spirit. In the setting of this chapter, Paul mentions the human spirit twice more: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays” (v. 14) and “The spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets” (v. 32). This provides support for the interpretation that Paul has in mind the spirit within man.

However, the word spirit, both with and without the capital letter, must be studied in relation to the term mysteries. That term is the content of this last clause in verse 2. We find a parallel in 13:2, where Paul also speaks about mysteries that are closely linked to prophecy. Through the Holy Spirit, God originates both in prophecies and in tongues mysteries that are incomprehensible (compare 2:6-16; 1 Peter 1:10-12). Nonetheless, the Holy Spirit reveals these mysteries and employs his people to express them. The Holy Spirit, then, is the agent who works with a person and relates mysteries. . . . . .

c. But he who prophesies . . . . . .

Again, so that we can further clarify Kistemaker’s position regarding tongues we need to also go to pp.480-81) – enjoy:

4. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself. He who prophesies edifies the church.

a. “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.” Paul already indicated that the person who speaks in a tongue addresses not the people but God (v. 2). Now he states that the tongue-speaker edifies himself. . . . . .

How does a person who speaks in a tongue edify himself? Some scholars interpret the verb to edify negatively, because they think that a person ought to use his gifts for the benefit of the church. They suppose that Paul resorts to sarcasm in the first part of this verse and marshal at least two arguments to prove their case. First, Paul teaches that the gifts which the Spirit gives are for the common good of the church (12:7); next, in his letter of love he intimates that gifts should never serve self-centered ambition.

However, Paul seems to speak positively here, for he encourages all his readers to speak in tongues (v. 5). He also notes that private prayer to God, even when spoken in a tongue, is a matter between the believer and God (II Cor. 12:2-4; see also v. 2 and the commentary on it). Hence, no one is free to invade another’s religious privacy; prayer, whether spoken or unspoken, is a two-way street. God receives praise and thanks from the speaker and at the same time grants him or her comfort and encouragement.

In this chapter Paul emphasizes the concept edification, as the repeated use of the verb edify and the noun edification attest. Elsewhere Paul tells the recipients of his letter: “seek to excel in the [work of] edifying the church” (v. 12b).

b. “He who prophesies edifies the church.” Paul once more stresses the fact that with respect to either tongues or prophecy, the latter is greatly preferred. The fundamental principle of loving one’s neighbour as oneself, clarified in Paul’s discourse on love (13), comes to expression in the voice of prophecy. The setting for prophecy is a public worship service where the members have come together for praise, prayer, and instruction. The setting can also be a small gathering of two or three in the mane of the Lord (see Matt. 18:20). Prophecy must always be spoken against the backdrop of love for one’s neighbour.

Paul notes that the person who prophesies edifies the church. In this text, he means not the universal church but the local congregation. When someone speaks to God in a tongue, the worshipper follows a vertical path; but when this person prophesies to the members of the church, he or she reaches out to fellow believers on a horizontal level.

5. Now I wish . . . . . . (pp.481-82)
6. But now, brothers, suppose I come to you speaking in tongues . . . . . . . (pp.483-84)
7. In the same way, lifeless things, whether flute or harp . . . . . . . (p.485)
8. For if the trumpet produces an indistinct sound . . . . . . (p.485)
9. So also you, unless you utter a distinct message . . . . . . . (p.485) Kistemaker finishes ch.14 on p.519​
 
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Hillsage

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Hi Gids, it's good to be chatting with you.
And I am smiling already. Always good to chat with you too. BTW Bibby, what are "Gids"? I was actually expecting the 'Hilly' accolade from you, and thought I'd come up with a fitting retort.

As for this very ticklish question, I suppose that I could take a more pragmatic approach by saying that for those who believe that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is meant to be subsequent to our initial Salvation, then I would say that they are probably compelled to believe that they were Born Again the moment that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon them; otherwise, the concept of subsequence will collapse.
I didn't ask because I wanted to argue, I really do wonder myself. Although I have no problem with a subsequence happening. I say that based upon the subsequence of the three feasts of the OT which in my opinion relate to the three salvations of man from spirit to soul to body.

Now, theologically speaking, in my opinion this is where things change. From the little that we have to go on with the event of John 20:22, all that I could say is that this appears to be similar to how the Holy Spirit rested upon the early OT Prophets so that they could prophesy and where he would then depart. As for this being a Salvific event for the Apostles, then I would say that it was not, where their Salvation or initiation into the Kingdom of God occurred on the Day of Pentecost when they first received the Holy Spirit.
For me John 20:22 is simply a prophetic verse. How could Jesus give the Holy Spirit which wasn't given until Pentecost? The blowing was simply prophetic of the rushing mighty wind which entered the house/temple where they were celebrating the feast of Pentecost. But the key word is that of "receive". A distinct word which is not used of receiving the word for salvation in scripture. But that point is a 'teaching' in and of itself.

Even though I am a Pentecostal, this is what makes me a non-classical Pentecostal, in that I believe that the normative (but not compulsory) Biblical account of Salvation is that when we receive the Holy Spirit that the new initiate should be taught that they can immediately begin to praise the Father in tongues, but again, our New Covenant ability to be able to pray in the Spirit (tongues) is not mandatory for us to be Saved.
Whereas I believe our spirit is gennao/regenerated/born anew/born from above'. Upon doing so it is "one spirit with the Lord" IOW the spirit of, Christ our LORD. I do, as of late question whether or not that event means that our old spirit is now 'the holy spirit'...of Christ in us'. Not sure what the scriptures mean when it says "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit". Maybe you have some biblicist insight on that one Bibby? ;)

Yes, I can understand the boring aspect rather well!
Oh come on now, you live for this don't you? It helps you to grow when dealing with all God's children. Especially the ones influenced with the retarded teaching contrary to that which we love. :p

As to the Greek usage of spirit/Spirit, it does appear that when Paul sometimes uses the term spirit that it should be read as either "s/Spirit" or "the Spirit who is within me". As I am a dichotomist (or more properly a functional-dichotomist), then I do not see that man has a separate human spirit. This means that when the Holy Spirit speaks to the Father that it is always the Holy Spirit speaking through us and never a supposed 'spirit of man'. As to how it is common to hear people providing a word in a tongue and then having it translated where it is directed to the congregation I will follow this up in the next paragraph.
Ah yes, my 'Partimers'...headed to 'Alzheimers' lightbulb just went on. I forgot you were that 'functional-dichotomist' guy.

If I were to approach this question with a dose of delicacy, I could feign some uncertainty regarding how you stated “the Holy Spirit coming upon me to manifest His tongues to others through me” by asking, Sorry, so that we are clear, with what Scriptures are you referring to? This particular technique is useful in that while I wait for a reply I know full well that there are actually no Scriptures to quote.
We for heaven's sake don't be delicate with me. I'm here to get beat like a red headed stepchild...if you can. Hold on to your hat now, here I go with scriptures concerning, first Jesus, then us.

Scriptures pertaining to Jesus.
MAT 12:18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him,
LUK 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove,
LUK 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
JOH 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Scriptures pertaining to us.
JOEL 2:29 Even upon the menservants and maidservants in those days, I will pour out my spirit.
LUK 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. THIS WAS STILL THE OT AND SPEAKS OF THE SAME PLACEMENT THEN THAT WE HAVE AFTER PENTECOST.....IMO of course.



ACT 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
ACT 2:17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
ACT 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them;
1PE 4:14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.


Having for many years adhered to the formula tongues + interpretation = prophecy (and on this forum as well), when I came to the realisation that we have absolutely not a hint of Scriptural support for such a practice, I was then compelled to understand that this is something that we had gotten terribly wrong. I’m sure that my point is not lost on you in that this means that every time that someone has followed up a congregational tongue with an interpretation that has been directed toward either the congregation or an individual that it did not come from the Holy Spirit but from the flesh.
Actually I haven't come to your realization ever since I heard that taught by a third generation Baptist theologian who'd received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and he was teaching at a Full Gospel conference in Denver back in the 70's. He based it upon;

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

And I wouldn't say that I haven't been in my prayer tongue mode, when I felt like the interpretation of what I said was dropped into my soul/mind. And subsequently shared with the body.

Thankfully, over the years I have never provided an interpretation to a tongue within the congregational setting which means that I have been able to inadvertently avoid committing this fallacy.
Thankfully the forgiveness of our heavenly Father would have dealt kindly with you, had you done such a spiritually zealous act without knowledge of maturity. I actually think He gets a kick out of us 'kids' trying to wear daddy's shoes and walk around with a big grin on our face. Lord knows it isn't happening enough in my town, or with me. :(

Sorry this was so long, and I know you're busy with others so don't worry about me.
 
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