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Why seek "God"?

toLiJC

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A deeper communion with Christ.

would the boss of the company you work for pay you for any hour spent with deeper communion with what doesn't bring revenue/profit to that company?!, so is God, if there is not true overall salvation as a result of what you do spiritually, He won't reward you?! - i don't mean the true communion with the true Christ (Who is the biblical Jesus) is wrong

Blessings
 
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dlamberth

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would the boss of the company you work for pay you for any hour spent with deeper communion with what doesn't bring revenue/profit to that company?!, so is God, if there is not true overall salvation as a result of what you do spiritually, He won't reward you?! - i don't mean the true communion with the true Christ (Who is the biblical Jesus)

Blessings
There is no way I'm able to share with you the value/profit I receive from communion with Christ. I'm not in it for rewards of any kind. It's Love! What ever received I leave up to my Beloved God in what ever way He see's fit. I have that much Faith in Him.
 
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ananda

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i didn't talk about hypocritical love, but i talked about pure and perfect love for neighbor's salvation, how can any state different from the pure and perfect love for neighbor's salvation be higher or highest?!, what is more useful for the human and other (be)souled beings and souls, overall/all-embracing salvation or sublime non-saviors called e.g. buddhists?!

Blessings
Equanimity is more useful, as it results in the cessation of dukkha.
 
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ananda

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What I think your missing is that the path of Love can lead to those highest states. It's kind of a gateway. Have you ever read Rumi?

I sometimes wonder if you might be over attached to "non-attachment".

If there is attachment to Love, it's not Love! What it means is that your expecting something in return which is something other than Love.
Love always has an object (something to be loved). That is attachment.

I agree that love is indeed a higher state, compared to the ordinary human state. However, it is not the highest state in early Buddhism.
 
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dlamberth

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Love always has an object (something to be loved). That is attachment.
Nope, that's not true...Love does not always have an object. Have you heard the term "Be Love"? That's a true state of being. It comes from the heart.

I agree that love is indeed a higher state, compared to the ordinary human state. However, it is not the highest state in early Buddhism.
About Love...more than any other creature we Human Beings are made such that we respond to Love the most. It's one of the things that makes us Human Beings. The others that go into helping us to be more Human are Compassion and Service to those in need. I'm wondering what good higher states are if these most basic lessons on being more Human are not learned before hand? That's a question.
 
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ananda

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Nope, that's not true...Love does not always have an object. Have you heard the term "Be Love"? That's a true state of being. It comes from the heart.
No, I haven't heard of that term. What are you loving, when you're "being love"?

About Love...more than any other creature we Human Beings are made such that we respond to Love the most. It's one of the things that makes us Human Beings. The others that go into helping us to be more Human are Compassion and Service to those in need. I'm wondering what good higher states are if these most basic lessons on being more Human are not learned before hand? That's a question.
I don't perceive how love can be the one great motivator. Rather, I see dukkha as the greatest motivator, the one common factor behind all action.

Love, and all other states, are merely different vehicles to teach us the lessons regarding samsara, dukkha, and kamma.
 
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toLiJC

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There is no way I'm able to share with you the value/profit I receive from communion with Christ. I'm not in it for rewards of any kind. It's Love! What ever received I leave up to my Beloved God in what ever way He see's fit. I have that much Faith in Him.

hopefully, everything is and will be fine with you

Blessings
 
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TheOldWays

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This thread is 43 pages of people talking past each other. Props to ananda for always maintaining the upper hand by replying directly to posts and keeping his cool when every reply to him is spiritual babble or accusations of having a closed mind or being lost.
 
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toLiJC

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Equanimity is more useful, as it results in the cessation of dukkha.

such an equanimity is a delusion, because at the very least it makes worshipers too calm and cold-blooded/nonchalant about what is happening to their neighbors/cohabitants

Blessings
 
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dlamberth

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I don't perceive how love can be the one great motivator. Rather, I see dukkha as the greatest motivator, the one common factor behind all action.
It's looking to me that you have a love affair with dukkha. It's Love for dukkha as the underlining motivating factor. dukkha is the goal. At least that's what's appearing to me. With out that love for dukkha, there would be no dukkha in ones life.

What higher states have you experienced? Which higher states are you desiring?
 
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habibii zahra

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It depends upon what one does with their faith in God. In the worse cases, the world has witnessed the worst atrocities and horror committed towards human beings by Believers. In the same breath, others become even more human as Human Beings because of their belief in God. Yet, belief in God is not needed for that, as we see in people. The bottom line for me, God Created variety in His Creation. Which means there is also room for non-believers. Which also means that you or I as Lovers of God have absolutely nothing over non-believers.
we should start to differenciate between religion and people...people who commits terror has nothing to do with god..they are doing their own belief...yet god ALLAH is a kind god he calls us to act mercifully to act with humility and compassion this is god..he is far away from terrorism and harshness
 
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habibii zahra

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Sounds good, but how does that change the many many ways it has been interpreted? The understandings of any book can be interpreted differently so it's not really about the sameness of the words.
being different is a thing and different interpretation is another thing..the Quran is true and didn't change since it was revealed yet the difference in interpretation cannot be a proof of being wrong or corrupted
 
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habibii zahra

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There is only only ONE sacred book directly written by the hand of God and signed off with His signature written with His own hand...and that is the Holy Book of Nature.
the only uncorrupted divine book is the holy Quran but we still believe in the bible and the torah as well
 
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ananda

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such an equanimity is a delusion, because at the very least it makes worshipers too calm and cold-blooded/nonchalant about what is happening to their neighbors/cohabitants

Blessings
I disagree. It brings us to a higher plane of wisdom, and we can act more appropriately and wisely from that higher plane, versus acting from a lower plane of wisdom.

I presented this example before:

Think about a child trying to help another child out of a bad situation. The child's vision and wisdom is generally less than an adult's. Although a child might possess great compassion to do what he can and what he knows to help the other child, the adult instead can (usually) help much more effectively, since the adult (hopefully) possesses greater vision and wisdom ... It is the same with the mind and consciousness further developed in training with jhana. In jhana [with even greater degrees of equanimity], we transcend the comparatively lower states of mind possessed by an ordinary adult, and can gain higher states of vision and wisdom. Thus, we can help others in even more effective ways.
 
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ananda

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It's looking to me that you have a love affair with dukkha. It's Love for dukkha as the underlining motivating factor. dukkha is the goal. At least that's what's appearing to me. With out that love for dukkha, there would be no dukkha in ones life.
Not so. What I'm actually claiming (and I've stated before in this thread), is that dukkha motivates all action. This is the First Noble Truth. I do not love the idea that dukkha motivates all action ... I simply perceive it as a fact of existence:

We sleep because we experience dukkha if we stay awake too long. We wake up & get out of bed, because staying in bed too long is also dukkha. We eat, because hunger is dukkha. We stop eating, because overeating is dukkha. We breathe in air, because not having oxygen is dukkha. We breathe out, because having too much carbon dioxide in the lungs is dukkha. We seek entertainment, because boredom is dukkha. We seek other entertainment, because too much of one kind is dukkha. We seek solitude, because too much entertainment becomes dukkha. Many seek saviors or gods, because the prospects regarding death and the cessation of physical life is dukkha. Some seek suicide because the thought of painful, ongoing existence is dukkha. And so on, and so forth, with everything else in our lives.

We also love because the feelings and emotions of love are pleasurable, and dispels some measure of dukkha. We fall out of love when our loving attachment to our object of love produces more dukkha than sukkha.

I cannot see how "love" can be substituted for "dukkha" - e.g. "we sleep because we love", "we seek entertainment because we love"? Does not make sense to me.

What higher states have you experienced? Which higher states are you desiring?
I have directly experienced the first jhana. In the first jhana, there is a great cessation of dukkha, and a wonderful experience of sukkha surpassing any normal human pleasure. In that state - with a great mass of dukkha stilled - my consciousness can perceive reality with much greater focus and power than in an ordinary, everyday state of mind. Observation of reality through the clarity of jhana enables us to gain the panna (wisdom) to achieve higher states of being.

Entering jhana is like dispelling many clouds from the sky, revealing the light of the moon or the sun that was previously hidden to a greater extent. Or, it is like quieting down the surface of a turbulent pool of water, in order to see my reflection more clearly.

I am currently seeking to establish the second, third, and fourth jhanas, all which promise even greater amounts of stillness and bliss.

There is nothing mysterious about the jhanas. It is no different than the progress of training and growth from childhood to adulthood - the adult (should) have greater control over his mind, compared to the child. With that control and focus, the adult can see more clearly, and do much more with greater wisdom, than the child. We early Buddhists do not see personal growth and training ending at the stage of the ordinary adult, but we continue this process onwards.

infant > baby > child > teen > adulthood > sotapanna > sakadagami > anagami > arahant

Each subsequent stage is more self-controlled, and (if wisely utilized) more peaceful than the last.
 
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dlamberth

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We also love because the feelings and emotions of love are pleasurable, and dispels some measure of dukkha. We fall out of love when our loving attachment to our object of love produces more dukkha than sukkha.

I cannot see how "love" can be substituted for "dukkha" - e.g. "we sleep because we love", "we seek entertainment because we love"? Does not make sense to me.
I think part of the disconnect is your equating Love to emotions. It can be, but that's necessary so. I'd turn your examples around and say that we love entertainment, so we seek it. We love to sleep, so we seek it. You love the motivation you find in dukkha, thus you seek seeing it in how you approach life. Because you talk about nothing else, the love of dukkha must be great in you.

I think where we are talking pass each other is in the difference between how east and west approach awakening. The processes of the east are of a more gentle approach where the ego is swept away though the process of meditation. In the west, the ego is crushed by the flash experience of the Divine with various images and experiences of God. ie, God is Love! God is life! God is Creation! Both processes though, I believe, lead to the same place of consciousness.
 
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