Sabbath & Holy Days NECESSARY for salvation.

[ImAHebrew]

I'm certainly glad you clarified that we come to a "cessation of our sin." That's not what you said before, and I was shocked. So how do we come to a cessation of our sin through grace? What about grace makes us stop sinning?

Shalom 1stcenturylady, those who did not properly listen to what Paul said also thought that he was teaching, "Let us do evil so that good may come." (Romans 3:8)

So you ask, "How do we come to a cessation of our sin through Grace?" Let me explain. Our unrighteousness (sin), is what places Yeshua upon the Cross, so that Yeshua, our Sin Offering, suffers and dies BECAUSE of us. Now, this was ALL according to the Scriptures, and by believing this, our sin is turned into a Spiritual DOING of the Law (Righteousnesss), which is a GIFT from Elohim-Grace. Yeshua's willingness to ALLOW us to treat Him in such an abominable manner should "cut us to the heart," causing us to REPENT, TURNING from all of our iniquities (Acts 2:37-38, Acts 3:26). Once we accept this Knowledge of the Truth concerning what our sin did accomplish, and truly believe it, then we ONLY have but one choice but to FLEE from our sin, unto the Mountains of Righteousness. Does that explain it for you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Bob S]

Shalom Bob S, I'm not a messianic, nor am I a JW, nor ANYTHING you have ever encountered. Eventually, you WILL care. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Pish-posh (rubbish), another wanna be. I am really scared, but teach on ol master. Enough of this 101 stuff, give us something to chew on.

 

[SAAN]

Paul is the main one who did teach against the law with such classic verses as:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes Rom. 10:4

Wherefore you are become dead to the law by the body of Christ Rom. 7:4

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20

Please read the bible in context, you are cherry picking way too much and forming doctrines out of a single verse and ignoring everything before and after it. I can easily quote many verse showing Paul the complete opposite of what you are describing, plus God and Jesus are the only ones in the entire bible that can add/subtract from the scripture, as Paul has no authority to do so.

 

[SAAN]

Grace means unmerited favor which is the exact opposite of keeping the law! The one verse in the bible that speaks of falling from grace is by trying to keep the law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4

Grace is unmerited favor which is the exact opposite of keeping the commandments of God?

You have unmerited favor, so you can repent, vs in the in OT where you were put to death for committing certain acts. You have grace because you broke the law.

In regards to Gal what was said before and after 5:4 you get a COMPLETE context of what is going on, and im sure it was the issue of the pharisees trying to force mandatory circumcision for salvation again, the same issue as the book of Acts.

You can only fall from grace, if you try to obtain Salvation from the law and reject the Messiah's free gift.

 

[SAAN]

It means Christ is the end of the law for believers. For unbelievers the law is still in effect.

But I thought the law was for Israel only?

So its unbelievers worldwide who the law is still in effect for?

So unbelievers, are to keep the 10C's, refrain from sexual immorality, Love God and Love one another because they are unbelievers?


Clearly in context that verse doesnt mean what you are stating it does.

 

[SAAN]

Christ fulfilled every jot and title of the law in his life, death and resurrection 2000 years ago. The law has been fulfilled so it is passed away for believers.

Christ fulfilled what applied to him and what was applicable, the same way that we are to be keeping what commands are applicable to us, while we wont be perfect at it, but that is what grace is for to repent when we sin and turn from it.

Christ was not a woman, so none of those commands allied to him on feminine hygiene, he wasnt a farmer, so none of those applied to him, but everything else he did perfectly and remained sinless.

 

[bloodygrace]

Please read the bible in context, you are cherry picking way too much and forming doctrines out of a single verse and ignoring everything before and after it. I can easily quote many verse showing Paul the complete opposite of what you are describing, plus God and Jesus are the only ones in the entire bible that can add/subtract from the scripture, as Paul has no authority to do so.

Paul understood that the letter of the law (Torah) had passed away for believers but the spirit of the law (love) was still binding.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:6

 

[bloodygrace]

But I thought the law was for Israel only?

So its unbelievers worldwide who the law is still in effect for?

So unbelievers, are to keep the 10C's, refrain from sexual immorality, Love God and Love one another because they are unbelievers?


Clearly in context that verse doesnt mean what you are stating it does.

You only see the letter of the law and nothing else. The new covenant promise is that the law would be written in the heart and this most certainly is not the letter. And if you knew anything at all, the law of God is the Torah not the 10C's which were only a summary of the law.

 

[bloodygrace]

Christ fulfilled what applied to him and what was applicable, the same way that we are to be keeping what commands are applicable to us, while we wont be perfect at it, but that is what grace is for to repent when we sin and turn from it.

Christ was not a woman, so none of those commands allied to him on feminine hygiene, he wasnt a farmer, so none of those applied to him, but everything else he did perfectly and remained sinless.

Christ fulfilled the law in it's entirety. He came and lived a perfect life under the old covenant. We are required to live lives of faith under the new covenant. Jesus is not our example in all things. It's the classic case of do as I say and not as I do.

 

[SAAN]

You only see the letter of the law and nothing else. The new covenant promise is that the law would be written in the heart and this most certainly is not the letter. And if you knew anything at all, the law of God is the Torah not the 10C's which were only a summary of the law.

IF its written on our hearts, that means it wasnt abolished. I know the Torah is the 1st 5 books in which Jesus summed up all the law and the prophets as Love God and Love one another.

 

[bloodygrace]

IF its written on our hearts, that means it wasnt abolished. I know the Torah is the 1st 5 books in which Jesus summed up all the law and the prophets as Love God and Love one another.

Love is written in the heart not a block of stone! You people crack me up.

 

[SAAN]

Love is written in the heart not a block of stone! You people crack me up.

Is Love not a commandment from God?
Did god not command us to Love one another?
Did Jesus not sum up all the law and prophets ads that?
Did Paul not sum up Love as the purpose of the commandments?

 

[ImAHebrew]

Pish-posh (rubbish), another wanna be. I am really scared, but teach on ol master. Enough of this 101 stuff, give us something to chew on.

Shalom Bob S, ask and ye shall receive. But, I am not anxious to give out many "pearls," although, if YOU chew the cud, and split the hoof, then that would encourage me to realize that I am not casting them to someone who is "unclean."

That being said, here is a list for you to choose from, and I will allow you to have just ONE of the list to "chew on."

1. The Gospel is ACCORDING to the Scriptures, if you would like to "chew on THOSE Scriptures," then that should be your FIRST choice.
2. Adam was a "figure" of the Coming One, if you would like to KNOW how Adam was that "figure," then this should be your choice.
3. There were those who were being "baptized on account of the dead," if you would like to chew on what that means, then this should be your choice.
4. Our unrighteousness COMMENDS the Righteousness of Elohim, if you would like to have a little chew on this, then this should be your choice.
5. Luke 24:21 states very clearly that "today, LEADS the third day away from when those things were done." If you would like to chew on the fact that Yeshua was three full days and three full nights in the tomb, then this should be your choice.
6. If you would like to KNOW exactly what the "Mark of the Beast" is, then this should be your choice.
7. If you would like to KNOW why "substitutionalism" is the Strong Delusion, then this should be your choice.
8. If you would like to understand WHY Elohim "consigned" ALL to disobedience, and WHY He subjected His Creation to "futility," then this should be your choice.
9. If you would like to KNOW who the Two Witnesses are, then this should be your choice.
10. And finally, if you would like to "see" the Abomination of Desolation," then this should be your choice.

Bob S, sometimes "choices" are difficult, hopefully, you choose well so that you can have something to "chew on." Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Shalom 1stcenturylady, those who did not properly listen to what Paul said also thought that he was teaching, "Let us do evil so that good may come." (Romans 3:8)

So you ask, "How do we come to a cessation of our sin through Grace?" Let me explain. Our unrighteousness (sin), is what places Yeshua upon the Cross, so that Yeshua, our Sin Offering, suffers and dies BECAUSE of us. Now, this was ALL according to the Scriptures, and by believing this, our sin is turned into a Spiritual DOING of the Law (Righteousnesss), which is a GIFT from Elohim-Grace. Yeshua's willingness to ALLOW us to treat Him in such an abominable manner should "cut us to the heart," causing us to REPENT, TURNING from all of our iniquities (Acts 2:37-38, Acts 3:26). Once we accept this Knowledge of the Truth concerning what our sin did accomplish, and truly believe it, then we ONLY have but one choice but to FLEE from our sin, unto the Mountains of Righteousness. Does that explain it for you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

You would think so, but not all do. But once we do, God's grace takes over. This is my definition of grace.


Romans 3:
"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

That is certainly unmerited favor, indeed. But Paul doesn't stop there.

31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

How? How do we "establish" the law if there is no law to break? By perfectly keeping it, of course. But isn't that works? Not if it is born from your new nature which is dead to sin/lawlessness!

The eternal moral laws of God to "love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself" are written permanently on our hearts of flesh. But Jesus didn't just give us his laws anew, but a way to keep them. This is where the grace of God changes its common meaning. That is the grace He has given us - part of Himself, for He is full of grace and truth.

So what is the New Testament definition of grace AFTER being born again? To find the answer we must turn to Scripture, and also get in the mindset of the Hebrew men writing it. The Hebrews had writing styles. One of the many styles is called 'doubling.' It is defining a word or phrase by repeating it immediately another way for clarity or emphasis. We see this often in Scripture.

"And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all." Acts 4:33

Jesus has given us His grace - His "power" to be righteous.

What did he tell the disciples to do just before He left earth?

"Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

"Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,"

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is why Romans 8:1 says (in it's complete form) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Many translations stop before "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Those translations emphasize the unmerited favor definition of grace. What other definition can you come to if what you read is, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"?

When taken to the extreme in interpretation, Paul writes against very liberal views of not being under the law, but under their view of grace, such as the Gnostics and the Nicolaitans.

2 Timothy 3: "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Many have white-washed this next important scripture of the apostle John due to modern Gnostic definitions of grace.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother."

Yes, we have free will, which is why Paul said,

I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

24 And those who are Christ’s HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[klutedavid]

Is Love not a commandment from God?
Did god not command us to Love one another?
Did Jesus not sum up all the law and prophets ads that?
Did Paul not sum up Love as the purpose of the commandments?

Hello Saan.

You asked the following question.

Did god not command us to Love one another?

Are you talking about the commandments to love in the law or are you asking about the sayings of Jesus concerning love?

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

These sayings are different to the law.

The law for example does not mention forgiving others (a saying of Jesus). The sayings of Jesus command us to forgive others. There is a difference between the sayings of Jesus and the law.

You could obey the ten commandments perfectly, yet be an unforgiving person, if you do not forgive then you will not be forgiven. Need I mention the other sayings of Jesus.

You could obey the ten commandments perfectly, yet avoid paying tax, drink heavily and be a gambler. The ten commandments cannot sign the letter of love that God requires.

 

[bugkiller]

Shalom Soyeong, I like how you think. Let me clear up several things. Our sin/transgression is what Sacrificed Yeshua, and we did this, "not knowing what we were doing," (Luke 23:34) with the HELP of the hands of wicked men (Acts 2:23). The Law REQUIRES that for one to be JUSTIFIED, one must SACRIFICE when they have sinned in ignorance (Leviticus 4:27-29). So, when one does PERFORM this sacrifice, it becomes RIGHTEOUSNESS for them. Well, the Righteousness that comes from FAITH, is by BELIEVING the Yeshua is YOUR Sacrifice, and that you did SACRIFICE Him by Sinning, therefore, anyone who desires this JUSTIFICATION in Messiah, HAD to be a sinner (Galatians 2:17), so that when sin is increased, this Free Gift of Righteousness is increased all the more (Romans 5:20). Does this explanation of Grace make any sense to you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Maybe you think that the pro grace community seems to think they were not sinners. Upon acceptance of Jesus as our Messiah/Redeemer we are righteous. Remember the law is not for the righteous. Also remember both Abraham and King David were righteous even though both sinned.

bugkiller

 

[ImAHebrew]

You would think so, but not all do. But once we do, God's grace takes over. This is my definition of grace.


Romans 3:
"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

That is certainly unmerited favor, indeed. But Paul doesn't stop there.

31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

How? How do we "establish" the law if there is no law to break? By perfectly keeping it, of course. But isn't that works? Not if it is born from your new nature which is dead to sin/lawlessness!

The eternal moral laws of God to "love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself" are written permanently on our hearts of flesh. But Jesus didn't just give us his laws anew, but a way to keep them. This is where the grace of God changes its common meaning. That is the grace He has given us - part of Himself, for He is full of grace and truth.

So what is the New Testament definition of grace AFTER being born again? To find the answer we must turn to Scripture, and also get in the mindset of the Hebrew men writing it. The Hebrews had writing styles. One of the many styles is called 'doubling.' It is defining a word or phrase by repeating it immediately another way for clarity or emphasis. We see this often in Scripture.

"And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all." Acts 4:33

Jesus has given us His grace - His "power" to be righteous.

What did he tell the disciples to do just before He left earth?

"Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

"Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,"

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is why Romans 8:1 says (in it's complete form) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Many translations stop before "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Those translations emphasize the unmerited favor definition of grace. What other definition can you come to if what you read is, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"?

When taken to the extreme in interpretation, Paul writes against very liberal views of not being under the law, but under their view of grace, such as the Gnostics and the Nicolaitans.

2 Timothy 3: "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Many have white-washed this next important scripture of the apostle John due to modern Gnostic definitions of grace.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother."

Yes, we have free will, which is why Paul said,

I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

24 And those who are Christ’s HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Shabbat Shalom 1stcenturylady, thank you for taking the time to put your beliefs forth. I do agree with you that we CANNOT continue in sin, as that would allow the "works" of the devil to prosper. Now, I think you could come to a little better understanding of Paul and how he taught Grace. How do you view the last part of Romans 5:16? How is it that the Free Gift is OF Many Offences, UNTO Justification? And also, how does YOUR unrighteousness COMMEND the Righeousness of Elohim (Romans 3:5)? Can you explain those two thoughts of Paul? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[bugkiller]

Shalom Bob S, who said I was a "messianic?" You have NO IDEA who I Am. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Following your posts for the last few days my guess is you are a professional troll.

bugkiller

 

[ImAHebrew]

Maybe you think that the pro grace community seems to think they were not sinners. Upon acceptance of Jesus as our Messiah/Redeemer we are righteous. Remember the law is not for the righteous. Also remember both Abraham and King David were righteous even though both sinned.

bugkiller

Shabbat Shalom bugkiller, I thought that you KNEW everything you needed to know about me? If you really KNEW me, you wouldn't waste you time trying to tell me how "Jesus" makes you righteous, but then, maybe you should try. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[bugkiller]

Shalom Bob S, I'm not a messianic, nor am I a JW, nor ANYTHING you have ever encountered. Eventually, you WILL care. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

No I have encountered you before. The rules here forbid me to say how.

bugkiller