Passover and Unleavened Bread

[AbbaLove]

Deuteronomy clarifies it further by saying the lambs were slain "at the going down of the sun." Therefore, it must be done during the second half of the daylight period (afternoon) with 3:00 being the midpoint.

Doubt that there was/is a consensus within orthodox Judaism with it's different sects then and now. Read somewhere that the Sadducees and Samaritans (at time of Yeshua) believed the lambs should not be killed until the twilight of sundown then roasted and eaten with no remains left by the dawning of the morning twilight. Have you ever heard/read of this division?

The following six translations of Leviticus 23:5 and Exodus 12:6 generally support each other (e.g. ESV) when it comes to their choice whether to use either: “at twilight” “at even” “at evening” “between the two evenings” and “between the evenings.” The following five translations are from Leviticus 23:5 and the same choice of word(s) is used in the same translation of Exodus 12:6

These six translations (there may be others) can be interpreted as either: “between the two evenings” or “between the evenings.” Seventeen other translations that i checked read either: “at twilight”(7) “at even”(4) “at evening”(3) or “in the evening”(3). All of these (e.g. “at twilight”) could also possibly be interpreted as “between the two evenings” as does the ESV and NASB (see Footnotes below).

The six following translations are from Leviticus 23:5 and pretty much coincide with Exodus 12:6

Darby Bible Translation

In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the two evenings, is the passover to Jehovah.​

English Standard Version

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight,[a] is the Lord's Passover. (Footnote: [a] Hebrew between the two evenings)​

Hebraic Roots Bible

In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings is the Passover to YAHWEH. (No Footnote for Lev. 23:5, but Exodus 12:6) Footnote reads: The Passover is kept until the beginning of the 14th day and killed between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th.
NOTE: between the evenings implies the 30 minutes or so of "twilight" that distinguishes the ending of one day from the beginning of the next day.​

Jubilee Bible 2000

On the fourteenth of the first month between the two evenings is the LORD's passover.​

New American Standard Bible

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month [a]at twilight is the Lord’s Passover. (Footnote: [a] Lit between the two evenings)​

Young’s Literal Translation

in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Jehovah;​

The Complete Jewish Bible is the only translation that puts a different spin on
“between the two evenings” as lasting only a few minutes (about 45 minutes).

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai.​

With respect to the post by DaveW-Ohev about “Pesach proper” being ... "only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot" ... am having a hard time following his reckoning timeline that "twilight" occurs until sundown and "only a few minutes long."

It's only just my opinion, but i believe the Pharisee tradition (3 pm timeline) was more out of convenience than the original timeline of the Exodus and Leviticus account translations when the Israelites slaughtered their lambs for roasting and eating “between the two evenings” and not at 3 pm midway between the six afternoon eve hours from what you believe is the 1st eve hour beginning after 12 noon up to the 2nd eve hour of waning daylight.

The Hebraic Roots Bible Footnote for Exodus 12:6 makes more sense to me …
Exodus 12:6 Hebraic Roots Bible Footnote: The Passover is kept until the beginning of the 14th day and killed between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th.)

There are approximately 30 minutes of twilight between the ending evening of Abib 13 and the beginning of the evening of Abib 14. Even, if that was true i don’t know of any link that refers to those 30 minutes as “Pesach proper” referring to when all the lambs were to be killed and prepared for roasting.

So, if i'm hearing you correctly you believe all the lambs during "Peasch proper" at the time on Yeshua were slain from just after 12 noon until the wanning twilight toward the end of Abib 14?

 

[AbbaLove]

Correct me if I am wrong, but *Pesach proper is only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan *until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot.

OK, think (maybe) the following is what you refer to as "Pesach proper" or "between the two evenings" [Hebrew: "Bein Ha'arabayim"] ...

To explain the two evenings some have suggested they represent the times of: 1)sunset and 2)arrival of night, ie so that 'between the evenings'
represents dusk.

Others feel the first evening is a time prior to sunset; *such as 3.00 pm
in the afternoon, when the shadows start to lengthen and it becomes
apparent the work day is coming to an end.
'Between the Evenings' - Sunset to Midnight!​

The following two translations mention the word sundown ...

Leviticus 23:6 CJB (Pesach proper)

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai.​

Leviticus 23:6 ONMB (Pesach proper)

On the fourteenth of the first month at twilight[2] is the Passover of the LORD*.
Footnote: The Hebrew expression for twilight is Ben Harbayim, referring to the time between sundown and darkness. This is immediately after sundown. See Exodus 12:18, Num. 9:3-5; 28:16,17; 33:3, Deut. 23:12, Josh. 5:10,11.​

A representation of morning twilights, golden hour and blue hour. In the evening, it's exactly the same but happening in the west instead of in the east. I'd interpret complete darkness no earlier than Astronomical Twilight and as far as evening dusk it may begin at Nautical Twilight when more than three stars are visible.

Mercury swings farthest east of the setting sun (19o) on the sky’s dome during its present apparition as the evening “star.” The current apparition started officially on March 7, 2017 and will end on April 20, 2017. But the best time to see Mercury is around the middle of that period, in other words, around Pesach.​

 

[gadar perets]

Doubt that there was/is a consensus within orthodox Judaism with it's different sects then and now. Read somewhere that the Sadducees and Samaritans (at time of Yeshua) believed the lambs should not be killed until the twilight of sundown then roasted and eaten with no remains left by the dawning of the morning twilight. Have you ever heard/read of this division?

No. I don't put any stock in what either group teaches.

The following six translations of Leviticus 23:5 and Exodus 12:6 generally support each other (e.g. ESV) when it comes to their choice whether to use either: “at twilight” “at even” “at evening” “between the two evenings” and “between the evenings.” The following five translations are from Leviticus 23:5 and the same choice of word(s) is used in the same translation of Exodus 12:6

These six translations (there may be others) can be interpreted as either: “between the two evenings” or “between the evenings.” Seventeen other translations that i checked read either: “at twilight”(7) “at even”(4) “at evening”(3) or “in the evening”(3). All of these (e.g. “at twilight”) could also possibly be interpreted as “between the two evenings” as does the ESV and NASB (see Footnotes below).

The six following translations are from Leviticus 23:5 and pretty much coincide with Exodus 12:6

Darby Bible Translation

In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the two evenings, is the passover to Jehovah.​

English Standard Version

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight,[a] is the Lord's Passover. (Footnote: [a] Hebrew between the two evenings)​

Hebraic Roots Bible

In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings is the Passover to YAHWEH. (No Footnote for Lev. 23:5, but Exodus 12:6) Footnote reads: The Passover is kept until the beginning of the 14th day and killed between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th.
NOTE: between the evenings implies the 30 minutes or so of "twilight" that distinguishes the ending of one day from the beginning of the next day.​

Jubilee Bible 2000

On the fourteenth of the first month between the two evenings is the LORD's passover.​

New American Standard Bible

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month [a]at twilight is the Lord’s Passover. (Footnote: [a] Lit between the two evenings)​

Young’s Literal Translation

in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Jehovah;​

The Complete Jewish Bible is the only translation that puts a different spin on
“between the two evenings” as lasting only a few minutes (about 45 minutes).

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai.​

​

If these translations are correct, then the lambs were slain at the beginning of the 14th and the firstborn of Egypt died the night of the 14th around midnight. Yet, we are told in Numbers 33 that they left Egypt on the 15th. What did Israel do from the time Pharaoh said "Go" until they actually left (approx. 12-18 hours assuming they left at sunset beginning the 15th). If that was the case, they certainly had plenty of time to leaven their dough.

It's only just my opinion, but i believe the Pharisee tradition (3 pm timeline) was more out of convenience than the original timeline of the Exodus and Leviticus account translations when the Israelites slaughtered their lambs for roasting and eating “between the two evenings” and not at 3 pm midway between the six afternoon eve hours from what you believe is the 1st eve hour beginning after 12 noon up to the 2nd eve hour of waning daylight.

In what way would it be more convenient?

So, if i'm hearing you correctly you believe all the lambs during "Peasch proper" at the time on Yeshua were slain from just after 12 noon until the wanning twilight toward the end of Abib 14?

I believe the lambs were slain from around 2:00-3:00 on the afternoon of Abib 14 until they finished. Sometimes they would be sacrificing until night (2 Chronicles 35:13-14). If they start sacrificing at sunset, it would be expected to go well into the night with all the lambs that needed killing. However, the 2 Chronicles account suggests it was extraordinary to be sacrificing and offering "until night". That would be the case if they started at 2:00 and didn't end until night.

 

[AbbaLove]

I believe the lambs were slain from around 2:00-3:00 on the afternoon of Abib 14 until they finished. Sometimes they would be sacrificing until night (2 Chronicles 35:13-14). If they start sacrificing at sunset, it would be expected to go well into the night with all the lambs that needed killing.

Valid Point! However, the timeline of what the Israelites did on the very FIRST Pass~Over is not necessarily how they later observed/celebrated the Feast of Pesach and Unleavened Bread during the 1st Temple period in Yerushalaim. And so again, this brings up the question as to what was the original intent/meaning of the Hebrew word: "Bein Ha'arabayim"? Did its original meaning just apply to the FIRST Pass~Over and not to the 1st Temple period (2 Chronicles 35:7-9) celebration? What's been translated as "at twilight" "at evening" "between the evenings" and "between the two evenings" in the majority of Bibles may have only applied to the very FIRST Pass~Over. Thus leading to confusion and posts like that by DaveW-Ohev where he interprets "twilight" as taking place a few minutes until sundown ...

Correct me if I am wrong, but Pesach proper is only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot.

However, the 2 Chronicles account suggests it was extraordinary to be sacrificing and offering "until night". That would be the case if they started at 2:00 and didn't end until night.

Agreed! ... as "after sundown" would be understood to be the beginning of Abib 15 and Chag hdMatzot. So, everyone agrees that "Pesach proper" (when the Paschal lambs were slain) occurs on Abib 14, but not sure whether: At twilight between the two evenings; Just 3-4 hours during the afternoon; or Only for a few minutes from twilight until sundown. And this confusion takes us to our discussion about the original Hebrew meaning of "Bein Ha'arabayim" and not necessarily its redefining based on the Judaism of the 2nd Temple period.

Your reference to 2 Chronicles 35 is as good an account and place to start when comparing any ritual differences between: (1) The very FIRST Pass~Over; (2) How "Yoshiyahu kept Pesach to Adonai in Yerushalayim"(verse 1); and (3) How Pesach was kept during the 2nd Temple period.

2 Chronicles 35:7-9 (CJB)
7 Yoshiyahu gave the ordinary people, to all who were present, 30,000 lambs and kids from the flock, all of them for Pesach offerings, and 3,000 bulls. These were from the king’s personal property.
8 Also his leading men voluntarily gave to the people and to the cohanim and L’vi’im. Hilkiyah, Z’kharyahu and Yechi’el, the rulers of the house of God, gave the cohanim 2,600 [lambs and kids] and 300 oxen for Pesach offerings.
9 Konanyah, his brothers Sh’ma‘yah and N’tan’el, and Hashavyah, Ye‘i’el and Yozavad, the head L’vi’im, gave the L’vi’im 5,000 [lambs and kids] and 500 oxen for Pesach offerings.​

We can see how the Feast of Pesach of 2 Chronicles had progressed to how the Feast of Pesach was kept according to this 2nd Temple account when ... "at three o'clock, or, in case the eve of the Passover fell on Friday, at two" was now the norm ...

The Sacrifice​

The animal was slain on the eve of the Passover, on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan, after the Tamid sacrifice had been killed, i.e., at three o'clock, or, in case the eve of the Passover fell on Friday, at two. The killing took place in the court of the Temple, and might be performed by a layman, although the blood had to be caught by a priest, and rows of priests with gold or silver cups in their hands stood in line from the Temple court to the altar, where the blood was sprinkled.​

The Three Groups of Laity​

The people taking part in the sacrifice were divided into three groups. The first of these filled the court of the Temple, so that the gates had to be closed, and while they were killing and offering their paschal lambs the Levites on the platform ("dukan") recited the "Hallel" (Ps. cxiii.-cxviii.), accompanied by instruments of brass. If the Levites finished their recitation before the priests had completed the sacrifice, they repeated the "Hallel," although it never happened that they had to repeat it twice.

As soon as the first group had offered their sacrifice, the gates were opened to let them out, and their places were taken by the second and third groups successively. All three groups offered their sacrifice in the manner described, while the "Hallel" was recited; but the third group was so small that it had always finished before the Levites reached Ps. cxvi. It was called the "group of the lazy" because it came last. Even if the majority of the people were ritually unclean on the eve of the Passover, the sacrifice was offered on the 14th of Nisan.

Other sacrifices, on the contrary, called "ḥagigah," which were offered together with the paschal lamb, were omitted if the eve of the Passover fell on a Sabbath, or if the sacrifice was offered in a state of uncleanness, or if the number of participants was so small that they could not consume all the meat. When the sacrifice was completed and the victim was ready for roasting, each one present carried his lamb home, except when the eve of the Passover fell on a Sabbath, in which case it might not be taken away.
PASSOVER SACRIFICE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
​

This 2nd Temple ritual of The Three Groups of Laity suggests that not as many lambs (and no bulls during Pesach) were slain thus leading to fewer required hours (Pesach proper) and thereby your belief ... "I believe the lambs were slain from around 2:00-3:00 on the afternoon of Abib 14 until they finished."

This 2nd Temple ritual being around 2:00-3:00 has led to what i believe is a redefining (leading to confusion) of the original meaning of "Bein Ha'arabayim" translated as "at twilight" "at evening" "between the evenings" or "between the two evenings" by Bible translators. My point being that the Feast of Pesach as understood by Yoshiyahu(Joshua) gives meaning to: "at twilight" and "between the two evenings" as relative to "Bein Ha'arabayim". Whereas, "2:00-3:00 on the afternoon" is (IMO) an attempt to redefine the original meaning of "Bein Ha'arabayim" as only occurring "during the afternoon" instead of taking into account "at twilight" and "between the two evenings" as originally intended during the FIRST Pass~Over and understood by Yoshiyahu (2 Chronicles. 35:7-9), even though it's original application had by now progressed to the Feast of Pesach and Unleavened Bread.

IMO, Yoshiyahu's (2 Chronicles 35) understanding of "Bein Ha'arabayim" as it applied to the Feast of Pesach made more sense than what today has led to a confusing interpretation due to the progressive Judaism of the 2nd Temple period when Yeshua was crucified. Just to be clear i believe that during both the time of 2 Chronicles 35 and during the time of Yeshua that Paschal lambs were being slain from 2:00-3:00 on the afternoon of Abib 14. However, Bein Ha'arabayim ("at twilight and "between the two evenings") was NOT originally limited to 3-4 hours on the afternoon of Abib 14. Thus, it seems the question is whether the implication/application of "at twilight" and "between the [two] evenings" was still in affect during the 2nd Temple period and if not had Bein Ha'arabayim progressed to the point that in effect having been redefined by the Pharisees?

I believe the lambs were slain from around 2:00-3:00 on the afternoon of Abib 14 until they finished.

However, that should not be understood to mean that "at twilight" or "between the two evenings" (Bein Ha'arabayim) was originally understood by Moshe or by Yoshiyahu and the Israelites as occurring only during the afternoon hours of Abib 14.​

 

[gadar perets]

What's been translated as "at twilight" "at evening" "between the evenings" and "between the two evenings" in the majority of Bibles may have only applied to the very FIRST Pass~Over.

...

This 2nd Temple ritual being around 2:00-3:00 has led to what i believe is a redefining (leading to confusion) of the original meaning of "Bein Ha'arabayim" translated as "at twilight" "at evening" "between the evenings" or "between the two evenings" by Bible translators.​

I would be interested to know the source that informs those translators to use "twilight". It certainly was not a source from Moses' day.

Just to be clear i believe that during both the time of 2 Chronicles 35 and during the time of Yeshua that Paschal lambs were being slain from 2:00-3:00 on the afternoon of Abib 14. However, Bein Ha'arabayim ("at twilight and "between the two evenings") was NOT originally limited to 3-4 hours on the afternoon of Abib 14.

Just to clarify, I do not believe "Bein Ha'arabayim" = 2:00-3:00 on the afternoon of Abib 14. There is only one evening which goes from sunset to sunrise. Another evening start at the next sunset. Therefore, from sunrise to sunset = "Between the two evenings". However, Deuteronomy further defines a more precise period within "between the two evening", that is, "at the going down of the sun". The sun is going down from noon -sunset. Therefore, that is more precise than just "Bein Ha'arabayim". The midpoint between noon and sunset is roughly 3:00 pm. That is the safest time that meets all the requirements of when the Passover is to be killed. Yeshua's death at 3:00 pm verifies this.

 

[AbbaLove]

I would be interested to know the source that informs those translators to use "twilight". It certainly was not a source from Moses' day.

Exodus 12:6 (Complete Jewish Bible)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.

Abraham Ibn Ezra defines "twilight" as the time between sundown and darkness. He was considered one of the more distinguished Jewish biblical commentators and philosophers of the Middle Ages. ... Abraham Ibn Ezra

The origin of "twilight" (or "dusk") occurring at the beginning of Abib 14 comes across in the following verses of Exodus 12:6-13 ...

7 They are to take some of the blood and smear it on the two sides and top of the door-frame at the entrance of the house in which they eat it.
8 That night, they are to eat the meat, roasted in the fire; they are to eat it with matzah and maror.
9 Don’t eat it raw or boiled, but roasted in the fire, with its head, the lower parts of its legs and its inner organs.
10 Let nothing of it remain till morning; if any of it does remain, burn it up completely.
11 “‘Here is how you are to eat it: with your belt fastened, your shoes on your feet and your staff in your hand; and you are to eat it hurriedly. It is Adonai’s Pesach [Passover].
12 For that night, I will pass through the land of Egypt and kill all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both men and animals; and I will execute judgment against all the gods of Egypt; I am Adonai.
13 The blood will serve you as a sign marking the houses where you are; when I see the blood, I will pass over you — when I strike the land of Egypt, the death blow will not strike you.
​

This raises the possibility that the timeline for the first celebration of the Feast of Pesach and Chag haMatzot in Yerushalayim (by Yoshiyahu's account) had shifted into the daylight hours. However, don't forget the common belief that "The Last Supper" took place at the beginning of Abib 14 (dusk).

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Sadducees and Samaritans had good reason if in fact they believed the Paschal lambs should be killed and consumed between the two 12 hour (twilights) being from the evening twilight of dusk to the dawning twilight of daybreak (Exodus 12:6-13)

A representation of morning twilights, golden hour and blue hour. In the evening, it's exactly the same but happening in the west instead of in the east. I'd interpret complete darkness no earlier than Astronomical Twilight and as far as evening dusk it may begin at Nautical Twilight when more than three stars are visible.
​

 

[gadar perets]

​

Exodus 12:6 (Complete Jewish Bible)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.

Abraham Ibn Ezra defines "twilight" as the time between sundown and darkness. He was considered one of the more distinguished Jewish biblical commentators and philosophers of the Middle Ages. ... Abraham Ibn Ezra​

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/abraham-ibn-ezra
These are modern sources, not from Moses' day.

The origin of "twilight" (or "dusk") occurring at the beginning of Abib 14 comes across in the following verses of Exodus 12:6-13 ...

7 They are to take some of the blood and smear it on the two sides and top of the door-frame at the entrance of the house in which they eat it.
8 That night, they are to eat the meat, roasted in the fire; they are to eat it with matzah and maror.
9 Don’t eat it raw or boiled, but roasted in the fire, with its head, the lower parts of its legs and its inner organs.
10 Let nothing of it remain till morning; if any of it does remain, burn it up completely.
11 “‘Here is how you are to eat it: with your belt fastened, your shoes on your feet and your staff in your hand; and you are to eat it hurriedly. It is Adonai’s Pesach [Passover].
12 For that night, I will pass through the land of Egypt and kill all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both men and animals; and I will execute judgment against all the gods of Egypt; I am Adonai.
13 The blood will serve you as a sign marking the houses where you are; when I see the blood, I will pass over you — when I strike the land of Egypt, the death blow will not strike you.​

​

"That night" is simply a reference to the night that follows the killing of the Passover (Abib 15). How can it refer to the night of the 14th and yet, the Israelites not have time to leaven their dough even though they didn't leave about 15 hours later? They left Egypt on the night of Abib 15 (Numbers 33:3; Deuteronomy 16:1).

​

This raises the possibility that the timeline for the first celebration of the Feast of Pesach and Chag haMatzot in Yerushalayim (by Yoshiyahu's account) had shifted into the daylight hours. However, don't forget the common belief that "The Last Supper" took place at the beginning of Abib 14 (dusk).

The Last Supper was not a Passover meal. There was no lamb since the lambs were killed at the temple, but not until the next afternoon (John 18:28).

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Sadducees and Samaritans had good reason if in fact they believed the Paschal lambs should be killed and consumed between the two 12 hour (twilights) being from the evening twilight of dusk to the dawning twilight of daybreak (Exodus 12:6-13)

A representation of morning twilights, golden hour and blue hour. In the evening, it's exactly the same but happening in the west instead of in the east. I'd interpret complete darkness no earlier than Astronomical Twilight and as far as evening dusk it may begin at Nautical Twilight when more than three stars are visible.
​

Are you suggesting that "between the evenings" means "between the twilights"?

 

[AbbaLove]

Exodus 12:6 (Complete Jewish Bible)

You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.​

Leviticus 23:5 (Complete Jewish Bible)

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai.​

Exodus 12:6 (JPS Tanakh 1917)

and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.​

Leviticus 23:5 (JPS Tanakh 1917)

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at dusk, is the LORD'S passover.

These are modern sources, not from Moses' day.

These and other translations are the best we have ... sooop don't be too quick to throw them under the bus as unreliable. What about the Exodus JPS 1917 account if you don't agree with the Complete Jewish Bible translation of the Leviticus account as previously posted (#26) being too modern?

Abraham Ibn Ezra defines "twilight" as the time between sundown and darkness. He was considered one of the more distinguished Jewish biblical commentators and philosophers of the Middle Ages.

"That night" is simply a reference to the night that follows the killing of the Passover (Abib 15).

​

Wrong, unless you also consider verses 8, 9, 12 (JPS Tanakh 1917 as "modern sources", that are not representative of Moses day.

• shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk (beginning of Abib 14 not Abib 15)
• eat the flesh in that night (verse 8) is generally understood to refer to the same night (Abib 14 not Abib 15) of the smearing of blood on the two sides and top of the entrance of the dwellings in which they ate the lamb that same night.
• And you shall not leave any of it over until morning (verse 10), but whatever is left of it until morning (verse 10), you shall burn with fire is generally understood as the morning of Abib 14 not Abib 15.
• in that night (verse 12) is generally understood to be a reference to the night of Abib 14 not Abib 15.

Exodus 12:6-13 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
6 and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.
7 And they shall take of the blood, and put it on the two side-posts and on the lintel, upon the houses wherein they shall eat it.
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; its head with its legs and with the inwards thereof.
10 And you shall not leave any of it over until morning, but whatever is left of it until morning, you shall burn with fire.
11 And thus shall ye eat it: with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste--it is the LORD's passover.
12 For I will go through the land of Egypt in that night, and will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD.
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and there shall no plague be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

As I understand it, *from sunrise ending one evening to sunset beginning the next evening is "between the evenings" (the daylight portion of a day). Deuteronomy clarifies it further by saying the lambs were slain "at the going down of the sun." Therefore, it must be done during the second half of the daylight period (afternoon) with 3:00 being the midpoint.

​

That understanding nullifies the real probability that lambs were also being slain as early as 9:00 am (on Abib 14) during the 2nd Temple period when Yeshua was crucified the third hour at 9:00 am. Thus, minimizing the probability that "between the two evenings" should be interpreted as limited to only six hours on the afternoon of Abib 14.

Are you suggesting that "between the evenings" means "between the twilights"?

Isn't that what you are implying in your above (red) comment?

*For example from the duration of a morning "twilight" around sunrise (ending of first evening) to the evening "twilight" around sunset (beginning of second evening) is a duration of 12 hours.​

A representation of two "twilights" or two "evenings" occurring from the dawn "twilight" (ending of first evening) to the second dusk "twilight" (beginning of second evening) being a duration of 12 hours. This explanation may be more in line with your interpretation of "between the two evenings" in your attempt to justify "two evenings" as occurring during six daylight hours (afternoon of Abib 14)​

 

[gadar perets]

Exodus 12:6 (Complete Jewish Bible)

You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.​

Leviticus 23:5 (Complete Jewish Bible)

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai.​

Exodus 12:6 (JPS Tanakh 1917)

and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.​

Leviticus 23:5 (JPS Tanakh 1917)

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at dusk, is the LORD'S passover.
​

These and other translations are the best we have ... sooop don't be too quick to throw them under the bus as unreliable. What about the Exodus JPS 1917 account if you don't agree with the Complete Jewish Bible translation of the Leviticus account as previously posted (#26) being too modern?

Abraham Ibn Ezra defines "twilight" as the time between sundown and darkness. He was considered one of the more distinguished Jewish biblical commentators and philosophers of the Middle Ages.

Here is the Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi's commentary on Exodus 12:6:

And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.​

in the afternoon: Heb. בֵּין הָעַרְבָּיִם From six hours [after sunrise] and onward is called בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם, literally, between the two evenings, for the sun is inclined toward the place where it sets to become darkened. It seems to me that the expression בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם denotes those hours between the darkening of the day and the darkening of the night. The darkening of the day is at the beginning of the seventh hour, when the shadows of evening decline, and the darkening of the night at the beginning of the night. עֶרֶב is an expression of evening and darkness, like “all joy is darkened (וְעָרְבָה) ” (Isa. 24:11). — [from Mechilta]

That understanding nullifies the real probability that lambs were also being slain as early as 9:00 am (on Abib 14) during the 2nd Temple period when Yeshua was crucified the third hour at 9:00 am. Thus, minimizing the probability that "between the two evenings" should be interpreted as limited to only six hours on the afternoon of Abib 14.

I do not limit "between the two evenings" to six hours. As I said, it would include all daylight hours. Also, the lambs were to be slain at "the going down of the sun," not at the rising of the sun" (sunrise - noon).

​

Isn't that what you are implying in your above (red) comment?

Yes. That was the greater window of opportunity to kill the Passover. The narrower window is from noon - sunset.

 

[Lulav]

It is quite common for Passover to be considered part of the feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be called Passover. When did this start? Should they be kept separate or combined?

I don't see how they can be separated.

However one must remember that there was only ONE Passover

What we do each year on the 14th of Aviv is to Remember that night, when the Angel of Death passed Over G-ds People when they obeyed and sacrificed the unblemished lamb and put his blood upon the doors to their dwelling. This was a symbol of what Yeshua would do many years later.

The three Holy Days are actually Three steps to Salvation

1.The shedding of innocent blood for the sins of the people, accepting that blood (on the doorposts) as a covering of their sin from G-d.
2.Living the Holy week, sin free, to represent eternity (seven days of Unleavened bread)
3. First fruits showing how by doing this you will receive new life, or being born again to live in the kingdom of G-d.

So it is what we do today in remembrance, just as Yeshua taught.

1. We remember the Salvation of G-d in Egypt and later in Jerusalem
2. We live a week eating unleavened bread after we have cleaned the leaven out of our lives.
3. We celebrate the Resurrection, the first fruits from the dead into eternal life

 

[pat34lee]

Since Messianic Judaism is a Judaism, I see no reason to do it differently from any of the other Judaisms.

No reason unless they are doing it wrong. Not saying they are (or aren't) here, just something to keep in mind.

 

[Open Heart]

No reason unless they are doing it wrong. Not saying they are (or aren't) here, just something to keep in mind.

And I just find it presumptuous for someone to come along, without a lifetime of study in Judaism, and say that the thousands of years of Jewish minds on the task of getting it right would make an obvious serious mistake.

 

[Lulav]

And I just find it presumptuous for someone to come along, without a lifetime of study in Judaism, and say that the thousands of years of Jewish minds on the task of getting it right would make an obvious serious mistake.

Like they have with Yeshua?

 

[Open Heart]

Like they have with Yeshua?

We're not talking about theology. We're talking about applications of Law.

 

[AbbaLove]

Here is the Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi's commentary on Exodus 12:6:

And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.​

Certainly you jest(witty remark) as Rashi didn't translate Exodus 12:6 into English or influence the translators of the Complete Jewish Bible as evident by "at dusk" or for that matter the KJV as evident by "in the evening" (not afternoon) ~

Exodus 12:6 (CJB)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 (KJV)
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening [beyn ha'arbayim].​

No matter whether: “at twilight” “in the evening” “dusk” or “sundown” it’s clear that Rashi’s interpretation of הָעַרְבָּֽיִם meant that the “first evening” began at 2-3 pm in the afternoon (הצהריים) of Abib 14, and not as Abraham Ibn Ezra believed that the "first evening" began at sunset at the beginning of Abib 14. The variance in the beginning of this "first evening" interpretation amounts to a difference of 20-21 hours and allegedly a difference in interpretation between the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Rashi’s (1040-1105) understanding of the two evenings was with the "first evening" being at 2-3 pm and the "second evening" occurring at sunset; whereas Abraham ibn Ezra’s understanding was with the "first evening" being at sunset and the "second evening" at darkness (at least one hour of elapsed time).

Abraham ibn Ezra (1089/92-1164/67) is considered one of the most distinguished Jewish biblical commentators and philosophers of the Middle Ages. As a man of Torah scholarship, art and secular knowledge, he surpassed all his contemporaries, and his influence upon learning and writing in Italy, Southern France and England was greater than that of any other Jewish figure.

ibn Ezra's interpretation of הָעַרְבָּֽיִם is cited by Kalisch … “We have two evenings; the first sunset, the second the ceasing of the light which is reflected in the clouds; and the interval between them is about an hour and 20 minutes” (so Ges. Keil). Abraham Ibn Ezra interpreted הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as the time between sundown and darkness.

This variance in interpretation of בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם can be as much as 20-21 hours whether the first lambs are slain in the afternoon of Abib 14 (2-3 pm) or at the very beginning of Abib 14 (sundown). What we're discussing here is when this variance of 20-21 hours in the interpretation of בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם began from the time of Moses ... to Joshua and the first Festival of Pesach and Chag haMatzot in Jerusalem ... to the 1st Temple Period and finally to the 2nd Temple period of Yeshua's day when the Paschal lambs weren't slain until the afternoon of Abib 14.

Question: Do either of the *two interpretations by Rashi or ibn Ezra of בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם help in any way to support either the Pharisee or alleged Sadducee belief ... *2-3 pm to sunset or sunset to darkness?

Matthew 26:17 (CJB)

On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?​

Mark 14:12 (NKJV)

Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?​

Luke 27:7-8 (CJB)

7 Then came the day of matzah, on which the Passover lamb had to be killed.
8 Yeshua sent Kefa and Yochanan, instructing them, “Go and prepare our Seder, so we can eat.”​

 

[gadar perets]

Certainly you jest(witty remark) as Rashi didn't translate Exodus 12:6 into English or influence the translators of the Complete Jewish Bible as evident by "at dusk" or for that matter the KJV as evident by "in the evening" (not afternoon) ~

Exodus 12:6 (CJB)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 (KJV)
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening [beyn ha'arbayim].​

​

I was not jesting. I simply gave you the translation and commentary as found here.

Question:

Do either of the *two interpretations by Rashi or ibn Ezra of בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם help in any way to support either the Pharisee or alleged Sadducee belief ... *2-3 pm to sunset or sunset to darkness?

No. That is why I posted Rashi's commentary. To show you translations and commentaries are not helpful. What is helpful is how "beyn ha'arbayim" was used in Scripture. I gave you the example of the morning and evening sacrifice being he first and second sacrifice of the day, thereby showing that the phrase must be a time before sunset. I also showed you that, if it means the beginning of Abib 14, then they had plenty of time to leaven their dough before leaving Egypt on the night of Abib 15.

Here is another example;

Exodus 16:12 - "I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even (between the evenings) you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; and you shall know that I am YHWH your Elohim."
​

The "flesh" the Israelites would eat "between the evenings" was quail (vs.13). The question is, if "between the evenings" means twilight, which is a period lasting approximately 32 minutes*, how did the Israelites manage to catch, kill, clean, cook and eat the quail in that short time period? It is obvious that much more time is required to do all that. They may also have had to start fires to cook the quail. We shouldn't assume that they had fires ready in anticipation of the quail coming.

*Sunset on the 15th day of the second month in Jerusalem this year was 7:25 pm. The end of astronomical twilight was 8:57 pm. Therefore, twilight lasted 32 minutes. The same would have been true in Moses' day. ​

Matthew 26:17

(CJB)

On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?​

Mark 14:12 (NKJV)

Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?​

Luke 27:7-8 (CJB)

7 Then came the day of matzah, on which the Passover lamb had to be killed.
8 Yeshua sent Kefa and Yochanan, instructing them, “Go and prepare our Seder, so we can eat.”​

The first day of Matzah is Abib 15 (Exodus 12:18-19). The lambs were killed on Abib 14. Therefore, these translations are in error. In Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12, the Greek word "protos" translated "first" can and should be translated "before". Therefore, after Abib 14 already started (the day the lambs were killed), Yeshua told his disciples to begin preparing a place to keep Passover. If the lambs were killed at twilight beginning Abib 14, why would Yeshua wait until then to prepare a place? Also, they certainly did not kill their lamb at the Temple because that was not done until the following afternoon. Did they kill their own lamb privately contrary to Deuteronomy 16:5?

 

[AbbaLove]

No. That is why I posted Rashi's commentary. To show you translations and commentaries are not helpful.

You prefer Rashi's commentary to Abraham ibn Ezra's commentary even though you say translations and commentaries are not helpful. Kind of a contradiction wouldn't you agree? The only time translations and commentaries are not helpful is when they differ from what another deems as a more acceptable translation or commentary.

For example instead of posting your own preferred translation (post #29) of Exodus 12:6 ...

And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.
Question: What unfamiliar (obscure) English translation of Exodus 12:6 reads in the afternoon ?​

... you should have posted an unbiased translation similar to the following ...​

And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings (beyn ha'arbayim).​

I gave you the example of the morning and evening sacrifice being the first and second sacrifice of the day, thereby showing that the phrase must be a time before sunset.

Those references to a morning and evening lamb being sacrificed the same day does not apply to the Pass~Over of Moses or the Pesach of the 2nd Temple Period. If that was the scenario (which it isn't) then a 1st lamb would be sacrificed in the morning and the 2nd lamb sacrificed before "the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it (the 2nd lamb) in the afternoon". Your own translation (of another Feast) as if it applies to Pass~Over is as you say, "commentaries are not helpful" especially when they are questionable.

Common sense alone would ????????? whether or not "between the evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim) is 5 hours of the declining afternoon sun from 12:00 pm (6th hour) to 5:00 pm (11th hour). Should Messianics believe this interpretation just because the former Pharisees (and now Rabbinical Judaism) promoted it; even more so considering that they didn't accept their own Messiah?

I also showed you that, if it means the beginning of Abib 14, then they had plenty of time to leaven their dough before leaving Egypt on the night of Abib 15.

Not So Fast! The Israelites left in haste in the morning of Abib 14 (read again Exodus 12:6-12).

Exodus 12:6-12 (several translations use the word "twilight")

6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight. (the first of two evenings or between the two evenings)
7 And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it.
8 Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. (Abib 14)
9 Do not eat it raw, nor boiled at all with water, but roasted in fire—its head with its legs and its entrails.
10 You shall let none of it remain until morning, and what remains of it until morning you shall burn with fire.
11 And thus you shall eat it: with a belt on your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. So you shall eat it in haste. It is the Lord’s Passover. (Abib 14)
12 ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. (Abib 14)​

​

One Hebrew Interlinear Bible translates "bin" (בֵּין) as "between" and "e·orbim" (הָעַרְבַּיִם) as "the evenings" another Hebrew Interlinear Bible translates "bên" (בֵּ֤ין) as "in" and "hā·‘ar·ba·yim" (הָֽעַרְבַּ֙יִם֙) as "the evening" and "twilight" is a popular English translation. And soooo again it depends on the translator and the interpretation. Thus, the confusion such as this earlier post ...

Correct me if I am wrong, but Pesach proper is only a few minutes long; from *"twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot.​

So, again it boils down to one's preference/bias; e.g. Rashi's interpretative translation OR Abraham ibn Ezra's interpretative translation as to the original meaning of "beyn ha'arbayim" at the time of Moses. Abraham ibn Ezra is generally considered as much (or more) knowledgeable of original Hebrew (Torah) as was Rashi, but in this case i'm going to partially agree with both Rashi and ibn Ezra.

Hint: *"twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown ... with respect to the late afternoon "twilight" (golden hour) beginning at the 11th hour of Abib 13, leading to the beginning of the early evening "twilight" (blue/gray hour) being the 1st hour of Abib 14 ("between the two evenings"). During this first hour of "twilight" it's plausible that the lambs were already being readied for killing (Exodus 12:6) and likewise in the Gospel accounts (Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 27:7-8). During this transition from the last hour of "twilight" (golden hour) on Abib 13 through the first hour of "twilight" (blue/gray hour) on Abib 14 was set in motion the original timeline for the first Festival of Pesach and Chag haMatzot by Joshua in Jerusalem on Abib 14.

Sunset on the 15th day of the second month in Jerusalem this year was 7:25 pm. The end of astronomical twilight was 8:57 pm. Therefore, *twilight lasted 32 minutes. The same would have been true in Moses' day.

Purely speculative! Besides the Pass~Over lambs were eaten during the night of Abib 14, with no flesh remaining by morning when they made their hasty departure that day.

If the lambs were killed at twilight beginning Abib 14, why would Yeshua wait until then to prepare a place?

The Disciples preparation for their Pesach meal with Yeshua began at the 11th "golden hour" of Abib 13 and continued through the "blue/gray" hour of Abib 14 which also included the preparation of unleavened bread "between these two evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim).

By the way (FWIW) if you will concede that the *twilight lasted 32 minutes was speculation ... i will concede that ibn Ezra was likewise speculating when he is to have said that the evening twilight at the beginning of Abib 14 was "1 hour and 20 minutes".

 

[gadar perets]

​

You prefer Rashi's commentary to Abraham ibn Ezra's commentary even though you say translations and commentaries are not helpful. Kind of a contradiction wouldn't you agree? The only time translations and commentaries are not helpful is when they differ from what another deems as a more acceptable translation or commentary.

For example instead of posting your own preferred translation (post #29) of Exodus 12:6 ...

And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.
Question: What unfamiliar (obscure) English translation of Exodus 12:6 reads in the afternoon ?​

... you should have posted an unbiased translation similar to the following ...​

And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings (beyn ha'arbayim).​

I do not prefer Rashi's commentary or the translation I posted in post #29. I posted both to show you their are other translations and Jewish commentaries that differ from the one's you posted. I gave you the URL to the translation I posted. Chabad.org says it is "The Complete Jewish Bible." The translation you used above is what I prefer, but I didn't know such a translation existed. What version is that?​

​

Those references to a morning and evening lamb being sacrificed the same day does not apply to the Pass~Over of Moses or the Pesach of the 2nd Temple Period. If that was the scenario (which it isn't) then a 1st lamb would be sacrificed in the morning and the 2nd lamb sacrificed before "the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it (the 2nd lamb) in the afternoon". Your own translation (of another Feast) as if it applies to Pass~Over is as you say, "commentaries are not helpful" especially when they are questionable.

I have no idea what you are saying here. My reference to the morning and evening sacrifice was to show that the evening sacrifice is sacrificed at the same time as the Passover (beyn ha'arbayim - Numbers 28:8). Since the evening sacrifice must take place before sunset since it is the second of the day, then the Passover must as well.

Common sense alone would ????????? whether or not "between the evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim) is 5 hours of the declining afternoon sun from 12:00 pm (6th hour) to 5:00 pm (11th hour). Should Messianics believe this interpretation just because the former Pharisees (and now Rabbinical Judaism) promoted it; even more so considering that they didn't accept their own Messiah?

The historical method used in Messiah's day is one proof. The Biblical examples I showed are other proofs. Translations and commentaries are not reliable proofs.

Not So Fast!

The Israelites left in haste in the morning of Abib 14 (read again Exodus 12:6-12).

Those verses say nothing about leaving in haste or leaving at all. Numbers 33:3 does.

Numbers 33:3 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.

Are you thinking this verse is corrupted? Why don't you accept it?

Exodus 12:6-12

(several translations use the word "twilight")

6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight. (the first of two evenings or between the two evenings)
7 And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it.
8 Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. (Abib 14)
9 Do not eat it raw, nor boiled at all with water, but roasted in fire—its head with its legs and its entrails.
10 You shall let none of it remain until morning, and what remains of it until morning you shall burn with fire.
11 And thus you shall eat it: with a belt on your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. So you shall eat it in haste. It is the Lord’s Passover. (Abib 14)
12 ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. (Abib 14)​

​

The translation "at twilight" is misleading you to believe they left the morning of Abib 14. Deuteronomy 16:1 says they left "at night".

​

One Hebrew Interlinear Bible translates "bin" (

בֵּין) as "between" and "e·orbim" (הָעַרְבַּיִם) as "the evenings" another Hebrew Interlinear Bible translates "bên" (בֵּ֤ין) as "in" and "hā·‘ar·ba·yim" (הָֽעַרְבַּ֙יִם֙) as "the evening" and "twilight" is a popular English translation. And soooo again it depends on the translator and the interpretation. Thus, the confusion such as this earlier post ...

Correct me if I am wrong, but Pesach proper is only a few minutes long; from *"twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot.​

So, again it boils down to one's preference/bias; e.g. Rashi's interpretative translation OR Abraham ibn Ezra's interpretative translation as to the original meaning of "beyn ha'arbayim" at the time of Moses. Abraham ibn Ezra is generally considered as much (or more) knowledgeable of original Hebrew (Torah) as was Rashi, but in this case i'm going to partially agree with both Rashi and ibn Ezra.

How the Scriptures themselves use the phrase is more reliable than translations.

The Disciples preparation for their Pesach meal with Yeshua began at the 11th "golden hour" of Abib 13 and continued through the "blue/gray" hour of Abib 14 which also included the preparation of unleavened bread "between these two evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim).

Opinion. The Scriptures say nothing about a golden hour or a blue/gray hour or twilight.

By the way (FWIW) if you will concede that the *twilight lasted 32 minutes was speculation ... i will concede that ibn Ezra was likewise speculating when he is to have said that the evening twilight at the beginning of Abib 14 was "1 hour and 20 minutes".

I was not speculating, but stating fact. Check any scientific/astronomical source of sunset and twilight times in Jerusalem. Ibn Ezra is wrong if "1 hour and 20 minutes" are his words.

 

[visionary]

We're not talking about theology. We're talking about applications of Law.

that still works for Yeshua instructing on the applications too.

 

[AbbaLove]

I do not prefer Rashi's commentary or the translation I posted in post #29. Chabad.org says it is "The Complete Jewish Bible." The translation you used above is what I prefer, but I didn't know such a translation existed. What version is that?

LTB ... Rashi's commentary is evidence of his bias that bên hā·‘ar·ba·yim should always be translated as: "in" (bên) "the afternoon" (hā·‘ar·ba·yim) based on his bias that "בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבַּ֖יִם" means from the declining of the sun at 12:00 pm midday to 5:00 pm or more specifically from 3:00 pm to 5:00 pm. This is typical of the influence of Rabbinical Judaism, but not necessarily Messianic Judaism. All of the following scriptures using "בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבַּ֖יִם" are more correctly translated as "the evening" ("evening the . in")

a) When God gave quail to the children of Israel in the wilderness.
Exod 16:12 "I have heard the murmurings of the children
of Israel. Speak to them, saying, At twilight
(between the evenings) you shall eat meat,
and in the morning you shall be filled with
bread. And you shall know that I am the LORD
your God.

b) When the second daily lamb was to be offered.
Exod 29:39 One lamb you shall offer in the
morning, and the other lamb you
shall offer at twilight (between
the evenings).

Exod 29:41 And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight
(between the evenings); and you shall offer with
it the grain offering and the drink offering, as
in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering
made by fire to the LORD.

Num 28:4 The one lamb you shall offer in the morning,
the other lamb you shall offer in the evening
(between the evenings).

Num 28:8 The other lamb you shall offer *in the evening
(between the evenings); as the morning grain
and its drink offering, you shall offer it as
an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the
LORD. *("at twilight" aka "between the [two] evenings")

c) When Aaron lit the lamps.
Exod 30:8 And when Aaron lights the lamps at twilight
(between the evenings), he shall burn incense
on it, a perpetual incense before the LORD
throughout your generations.

d) When the Passover lamb was killed.
Exod 12:6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth
day of the same month. Then the whole assembly
of the congregation of Israel shall kill it
at twilight (between the evenings).

e) When the feast of the LORD's Passover was observed.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations
which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.
5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight
(between the evenings) is the LORD's Passover.

Num 9:3 On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight
(between the evenings), you shall keep it at its
appointed time. According to all its rites and
ceremonies you shall keep it.

Num 9:5 And they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of
the first month, at twilight (between the evenings),
in the Wilderness of Sinai; according to all that
the LORD commanded Moses, so the children of Israel
did.

Num 9:11 On the fourteenth day of the second month, at
twilight (between the evenings), they may keep it.
They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter
herbs.

... the evening sacrifice is sacrificed at the same time as the Passover *(beyn ha'arbayim - Numbers 28:8). Since the evening sacrifice must take place before sunset since it is the second of the day, then the Passover must as well.

​

Again the interpretation of "at twilight" or "between the [two] evenings" is a matter of preference. Rashi has his opinion and Abraham ibn Ezra has his opinion. Chabad's interpretation is based on Rashi's commentary (Rabbinical Judaism) of "between the evenings" from the declining of the midday sun to an hour before sunset (12:00 pm to 5:00 pm). Do you really believe that was its ("בֵּ֥י הָעַרְבַּ֖יִ") interpretation going back to Moses, Joshua, David, and Solomon? "Between the [two] evenings" IMO is an example of the redefining of "בֵּ֥י הָעַרְבַּ֖יִ" by Rabbinical Judaism to mean "in the afternoon" thanks to commentaries like that of Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac (Shlomo Yitzhaki), known as Rashi.

Translations and commentaries are not reliable proofs.

​

Agreed! Exception being if you are a loyal adherent member of: www.Chabad.org

Those verses say nothing about leaving in haste or leaving at all. Numbers 33:3 does.

​

The Israelites toiled all night and into the morning stowing away all the gold and silver brought to them by the Egyptians during the dayllght hours of Abib 14, delaying their hastily planned departure. Like most of us when escaping for a getaway adventure; e.g. Wisconsin Dells and Minnesota ... for a couple weeks it takes longer to get everything ready and then 1/2 a day to catch our breath before finally departing.

Numbers 33:3 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.

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That's what i'm talking about! The Israelites would have made all their matzah on the afternoon of Abib 14, if the Egyptians wouldn't have kept bringing them more gold and silver on Abib 14. And then like we are so excited we can't sleep being all packed and ready to go we're on the road heading to Wisconsin & Minnesota by 3:30 am when it's still dark outside.

Opinion. The Scriptures say nothing about a golden hour or a blue/gray hour or twilight.

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WHAT? I'm not entitled to a plausible opinion like everyone else? After 3000+ years there's still not a consensus on the meaning of "between the [two] evenings" OR "at twilight".

I was not speculating, but stating fact. Check any scientific/astronomical source of sunset and twilight times in Jerusalem. Ibn Ezra is wrong if "1 hour and 20 minutes" are his words.

Are you absolutely positive 100% that in what was to become Jerusalem that "twilight" lasted 32 minutes during the time of Moses? If you define "twilight" as lasting 32 minutes then it lasted 32 minutes according to your definition of what ... "civil twilight" or the time from sunset to when the first three stars and a new crescent moon are vislble???​