LDS The Mormon Jesus

[withwonderingawe]

If you want to insist that Jesus was not created, then neither is anyone or anything else.

Are you finally getting it?

 

[Rescued One]

Are you finally getting it?

Apparently you're admitting another contradiction to the Bible, that God did not create anything.

Our God is not created; He is the Creator.

 

[KevinSim]

Apparently you're admitting another contradiction to the Bible, that God did not create anything.

Our God is not created; He is the Creator.

Nothing is created out of nothing, that's for sure. If by giving an intelligent being a body, spiritual or biological, you mean create, then you believe Jesus was created, because Jesus was given a spiritual and a biological body. Traditional Christians believe that just the same as Latter-day Saints do. But if the fact that Jesus existed as an intelligent being before He was given either body, means that He wasn't created, then yes, in fact nobody was created.

 

[MJFlores]

That's absolutely right. Nobody is created. We all were in the beginning with God.

Nobody is created.
- that Mormon statement is bordering godless Atheism

Malachi 2:10 New International Version (NIV)

Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Nobody is created.
- that Mormon statement is bordering godless Atheism

Malachi 2:10 New International Version (NIV)

Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

I'm sorry I do not know what your sect of Christianity teaches we are use to dealing with Evangelicals so our answers are based in that understanding. Most Christian sects teach that there was nothing and God created all things out of it. He spoke and there it was. It's called ex nilho.

We Mormons do not believe that doctrine. We believe there was unorganized matter and God commands it to be organized. All matter has always existed. You and me and all beings have always existed as light and intelligence, God placed this light into spirit matter and became the Father of Lights and spirits. In that way God bara/created us.

 

[withwonderingawe]

This last weekend was our General Conference. Br. Nelsen spoke and made a doctrinal clarification, I guess he felt some of us had become lazy in our speech patterns

"....As Latter-day Saints, we refer to His mission as the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which made resurrection a reality for all and made eternal life possible for those who repent of their sins and receive and keep essential ordinances and covenants.

It is doctrinally incomplete to speak of the Lord’s atoning sacrifice by shortcut phrases, such as “the Atonement” or “the enabling power of the Atonement” or “applying the Atonement” or “being strengthened by the Atonement.” These expressions present a real risk of misdirecting faith by treating the event as if it had living existence and capabilities independent of our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.

Under the Father’s great eternal plan, it is the Savior who suffered. It is the Savior who broke the bands of death. It is the Savior who paid the price for our sins and transgressions and blots them out on condition of our repentance. It is the Savior who delivers us from physical and spiritual death.

There is no amorphous entity called “the Atonement” upon which we may call for succor, healing, forgiveness, or power. Jesus Christ is the source. Sacred terms such as Atonement and Resurrectiondescribe what the Savior did, according to the Father’s plan, so that we may live with hope in this life and gain eternal life in the world to come. The Savior’s atoning sacrifice—the central act of all human history—is best understood and appreciated when we expressly and clearly connect it to Him."
www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/drawing-the-power-of-jesus-christ-into-our-lives?lang=eng

 

[Rescued One]

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

B. 3. The Lord will provide a way for us to obey all His commandments (see 1 Nephi 3:7; 17:3).
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 17: Obedience, a Law of Heaven

E. 2. Eternal life comes to us through the Atonement and by our obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel (see Articles of Faith 1:3; D&C 138:4;1 Nephi 22:31; D&C 14:7; Matthew 7:21).
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 17: Obedience, a Law of Heaven

• •
  “To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey the commandments of God. The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it” (Joseph Smith,Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 332).
  Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 17: Obedience, a Law of Heaven

 

[KevinSim]

Nobody is created.
- that Mormon statement is bordering godless Atheism

Malachi 2:10 New International Version (NIV)

Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Well, it all depends on what you mean by create. Were we created out of nothing, or were we created by God taking the intelligence that makes up our inner core and giving it first a spirit body and then a biological body? I don't think there's anything atheistic (or bordering atheistic) about the second meaning.

 

[MJFlores]

Well, it all depends on what you mean by create. Were we created out of nothing, or were we created by God taking the intelligence that makes up our inner core and giving it first a spirit body and then a biological body? I don't think there's anything atheistic (or bordering atheistic) about the second meaning.

Genesis 2:4-7 New International Version (NIV)

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Most Christian sects teach that there was nothing and God created all things out of it. He spoke and there it was. It's called ex nilho.

We Mormons do not believe that doctrine. We believe there was unorganized matter and God commands it to be organized. All matter has always existed.

The Bible says that was not the way it was.
Man became a living being when God formed him from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life

Then after the flood, God said to Noah:

Genesis 9:7 New International Version (NIV)

As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

How do man increase in number and multiply on the earth? The first man showed how:

Genesis 4:1 New International Version (NIV)

Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man.”

A person exists when a woman becomes pregnant then brought forth a person. That is the start of man's life, he has no life before that.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Genesis 2:4-7 New International Version (NIV)

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.



View attachment 194404

The Bible says that was not the way it was.
Man became a living being when God formed him from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life

Then after the flood, God said to Noah:

Genesis 9:7 New International Version (NIV)

As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

How do man increase in number and multiply on the earth? The first man showed how:

Genesis 4:1 New International Version (NIV)

Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man.”

A person exists when a woman becomes pregnant then brought forth a person. That is the start of man's life, he has no life before that.

This is going to be a different way for you to read Gen 1-2. Between those two chapters there are two creation stories one sort of mirrors the other. It also helps to remember that when Moses wrote this there were no chapters and verses so it was all one story about one the creation. Also with the first part of this creation story the Elohim(s) create and then in the next part the Lord God/Yahweh Jesus creates.

" And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.....These are the generations/history of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day (up to the day) that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:

for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

God the Father created everything spiritually before it was in the earth right down to the the last blade of grass. All of the host of 'heaven and earth' were created by the end of the 6th day, Paul uses this phrase in Eph 3: 9-15

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all (physical using the dust of the earth) things by Jesus Christ:...For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named..."

God the Father has the title of the Father of Spirits, Heb 12. He created all of our spirits before we came to earth, we are part of the family of heaven and earth.

Jesus/Yahweh created our mortal bodies from the dust of the earth and breathed or placed into us 'the breath of life' an idiom meaning our spirits.

*now back to Gen 1, the word create in Hebrew is bara and it does not mean to made something out of nothing but 'to make fat'. If you have some cattle and you want to take them to market you fatten them up so you can make more money. If you want to create/build a ship you gather in the material and go to work. No where does it say God made the dust or God made the water! They were already here but there was no life and God said 'Let there be light' and life began.

 

[MJFlores]

This is going to be a different way for you to read Gen 1-2. Between those two chapters there are two creation stories one sort of mirrors the other. It also helps to remember that when Moses wrote this there were no chapters and verses so it was all one story about one the creation. Also with the first part of this creation story the Elohim(s) create and then in the next part the Lord God/Yahweh Jesus creates.

" And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.....These are the generations/history of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day (up to the day) that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:

for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

God the Father created everything spiritually before it was in the earth right down to the the last blade of grass. All of the host of 'heaven and earth' were created by the end of the 6th day, Paul uses this phrase in Eph 3: 9-15

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all (physical using the dust of the earth) things by Jesus Christ:...For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named..."

God the Father has the title of the Father of Spirits, Heb 12. He created all of our spirits before we came to earth, we are part of the family of heaven and earth.

Jesus/Yahweh created our mortal bodies from the dust of the earth and breathed or placed into us 'the breath of life' an idiom meaning our spirits.

*now back to Gen 1, the word create in Hebrew is bara and it does not mean to made something out of nothing but 'to make fat'. If you have some cattle and you want to take them to market you fatten them up so you can make more money. If you want to create/build a ship you gather in the material and go to work. No where does it say God made the dust or God made the water! They were already here but there was no life and God said 'Let there be light' and life began.

It is a different read because what? It was taken from your Book of Mormon - that even the apostles did not know and that even Moses never knew.

That is like watching Noah in DVD

 

[withwonderingawe]

It is a different read because what? It was taken from your Book of Mormon - that even the apostles did not know and that even Moses never knew.

That is like watching Noah in DVD
View attachment 194440

No, I quoted the King James Version.

 

[Rescued One]

It is a different read because what? It was taken from your Book of Mormon - that even the apostles did not know and that even Moses never knew.

Pearl of Great Price, Moses
An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet, June 1830–February 1831.

Chapter 1

God reveals Himself to Moses—Moses is transfigured—He is confronted by Satan—Moses sees many inhabited worlds—Worlds without number were created by the Son—God’s work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Chapter 2

God creates the heavens and the earth—All forms of life are created—God makes man and gives him dominion over all else.

Chapter 3


God created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the earth—He created man, the first flesh, upon the earth—Woman is a help meet for man.

Moses

 

[Rescued One]

Genesis 1 KJV
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Genesis 2 KJV
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Neither of those chapters claims that God made vegetation spiritually. My tomatoes aren't spirits and don't have spirits.

 

[dzheremi]

Neither of those chapters claims that God made vegetation spiritually. My tomatoes aren't spirits and don't have spirits.

I couldn't rate your full post as 'funny' without feeling strange, like it might be misconstrued as me laughing at the Genesis account of creation, which I would not do, but this part of the post literally made me laugh out loud. Mormonism is not that specific, right? I had assumed that the 'spirit matter' thing was meant to apply to people only...if not, then I assume Mormons wouldn't be practicing food storage as they do, because they'd have the spirits of their canned goods locked up in a cabinet somewhere, and that's not a very nice thing to do.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Genesis 1 KJV
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Genesis 2 KJV
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Neither of those chapters claims that God made vegetation spiritually. My tomatoes aren't spirits and don't have spirits.

Rom 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature (GR creation, material universe) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 

[withwonderingawe]

A little Easter joy

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCJtfBR7T9E

Happy Easter and may the Lord bless you all on this most sacred day.

 

[Rescued One]

I love these:
Selah: Wonderful Merciful Savior

Selah: You Raise Me Up

I want these at my funeral!

 

[MJFlores]

A little Easter joy

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCJtfBR7T9E

Happy Easter and may the Lord bless you all on this most sacred day.

Wow, you also celebrate Easter?
Do you know the origins of Easter?

I have to take a rain check on this one.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Wow, you also celebrate Easter?
Do you know the origins of Easter?

I have to take a rain check on this one.
View attachment 194632

Yes we celebrate Easter;

www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/04/the-purifying-power-of-gethsemane?lang=eng

www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2arm5ydeJc