Is it ever ok to kill our enemies in the name of Jesus?

Jeepneytravel

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Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali, the boxer had it right when he refused to be drafted into the Viet Nam war...he knew it was nothing but the globalist/international bankers/military industrial sponsored war to control that little country. Most wars are just that, for global domination on behalf of the fat cat Globalist agenda.
 
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Der Alte

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Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali, the boxer had it right when he refused to be drafted into the Viet Nam war...he knew it was nothing but the globalist/international bankers/military industrial sponsored war to control that little country. Most wars are just that, for global domination on behalf of the fat cat Globalist agenda.
Baseless inflammatory divisive rhetoric.
The truth seems to hurt you...as Jesus said learn the truth and it will make you free!.
What truth? You have not provided any only, empty accusations. Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for your allegations or just more of the same? For your information random websites are not evidence.
 
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Jeepneytravel

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Baseless inflammatory divisive rhetoric.

What truth? You have not provided any only, empty accusations. Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for your allegations or just more of the same? For your information random websites are not evidence.


You should be familiar with historical facts, but are not...you might also try looking into your Bible, where Jesus said "love your enemies pray for your enemies" Matthew 5.44
and read Romans 12.21 and 1st Peter 3.9
"do not repay evil with evil but evil with good"
Of course I am assuming you are a Christian.
 
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Der Alte

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You should be familiar with historical facts, but are not...you might also try looking into your Bible, where Jesus said "love your enemies pray for your enemies" Matthew 5.44
and read Romans 12.21 and 1st Peter 3.9
"do not repay evil with evil but evil with good"
Of course I am assuming you are a Christian.
Shucking, jiving and deflection. My question did not concern my Bible knowledge. Not relevant to this discussion but I read it in more than one language. Once again here are your assertions.
Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali, ...knew it was nothing but the globalist/international bankers/military industrial sponsored war to control that little country. Most wars are just that, for global domination on behalf of the fat cat Globalist agenda.
Can you or can you not provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence for these assertions? Note the assertions have no relevance to my Bible knowledge.
 
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Jeepneytravel

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You consider the Bible irrelevant? Interesting, that says it all about your credibility.
You are not familiar with Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali, and also his stand against the Viet Nam war? There are many search engines which will bring you up to speed on the subject...if you need help finding it let me know..
 
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Der Alte

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You consider the Bible irrelevant? Interesting, that says it all about your credibility.
You are not familiar with Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali, and also his stand against the Viet Nam war? There are many search engines which will bring you up to speed on the subject...if you need help finding it let me know
..
I did not say anything about the Bible being irrelevant. I would advise you to stick to the topic which is not me. What I know about Muhammad Ali is irrelevant. You made several assertions I asked you to provide evidence supporting those assertions. The burden of proof is on you not me. I will understand if you are not able to support the assertions you made.
 
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Jeepneytravel

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I did not say anything about the Bible being irrelevant. I would advise you to stick to the topic which is not me. What I know about Muhammad Ali is irrelevant. You made several assertions I asked you to provide evidence supporting those assertions. The burden of proof is on you not me. I will understand if you are not able to support the assertions you made.


I proved my point, and you chose to ignore it..typical of "christians" who think killing of others is okay...better test the spirit you are following.
 
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I proved my point, and you chose to ignore it..typical of "christians" who think killing of others is okay...better test the spirit you are following.
You have proved nothing. All I have seen are a bunch of unsupported assertions. You should be more concerned about the spirit you are following rather than making insinuations about others.
 
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So if Jesus said this, why have so many Christian soldiers and churches killed in the name of Christ ?
Revelation 19:19 (KJV)
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
"The many early Christians accepted the injunctions of the Sermon on the Mount quite literally is certain and their attitude brought them into much the same kind of conflict with the Roman authorities which conscientious objectors of our own time face in dealing with the military authority. G.C. Macgregor (The New Testament Basis of Pacifism) points out that ‘until about the close of the third quarter of the second century the attitude of the church was quite consistently pacifist.’ Harnack’s conclusion is that no Christian would become a soldier after baptism at least up to the time of Marcus Aurelius, say about A.D. 170 (Militia Christi, p.4). After that time signs of compromise became increasingly evident, but the pacifist trend continues strong right up into the fourth century."

"During its first three centuries of existence, the Christian church was opposed to war and others forms of violence. Christian opposition to war early expanded into a denial of rightness of all coercive action on the part of the civil power. Thus arose that form of conscientious objection which has been designated as political nonparticipation."

"For many years many Christian regarded services in the army as inconsistent with their profession. Some held that for them all bloodshed, whether as soldiers or executioners, was unlawful."
"During a considerable period after the death of Christ, it is certain...that his followers believed He had forbidden war, and that, in consequence of this belief many of them refused to engage in it, whatever were the consequences, whether reproach, or imprisonment, or death. These facts are indisputable: ‘It is easy,’ says a learned writer of the 17th century, ‘to obscure the sun at midday, as to deny that the primitive Christian renounced all revenge and war.’ Of all Christian writers of the second century, there is not one who notices the subject, who does not hold it to be unlawful for a Christian to bear arms."
"A very interesting sidelight is cast on the attitude of the early Christians to war by the serious view they took of those precepts of the Master enjoining love for all, including enemies, and forbidding retaliation upon the wrongdoer, and the close and literal way in which they endeavored to obey them. This view and this obedience of those first followers of Jesus are the best commentary we can have upon the problematic teaching in question, and the best answer we can give to those who argue that it was not meant to be practiced save in a perfect society , or that it refers only to the inner disposition of the heart and not to the outward actions, or that it concerns only personal and private and not the social and political relationship of life."

You have heard that it has been said there is no greater thing than to give up your life for someone... so that by giving up this worldly life and to take up Christ will help to save the life of others, by your example!
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
 
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Hi, I am new here today. I'll give you my not so well read reply on this.

I believe that we are to love our enemies like we love God. We are to forgive them in our hearts and pray for them too. I think if we live by the sword we shall die by it. It is a life choice really. We are not to resist evil for I believe we risk filling our hearts with evil as well as uprooting the wheat with the weeds if we do. Therefore it is a very treacherous choice. The purpose of these sayings I believe is to awaken the Spirit in our hearts to that we can be elevated by Jesus. So, when we don't follow, we risk losing something.

I appeal to John 6:63 the flesh profits nothing. In this I take an ultimate perspective stance upon the world of humans. If the flesh itself profits nothing in the perspective of Jesus, then so many things that we are told of the flesh as to be good are ultimately in vain. We experience this entire cosmos through the flesh therefore we can extrapolate and say the same is for all things there as well. Did not Jesus turn to a man in John or Matthew and say to him about his father, let the dead bury the dead and follow me? So even this I think can be put into the category of no profit. So, if we agree, then there isn't much in profit according to this perspective.

Jesus offers us this ultimate perspective at all times I think. Yet we as humans seem to continue to see things without it. I believe that is the difference in the Spirit, that is to say giving us a different perspective. It is the Spirit that profits not the flesh. For it is the Spirit is the goal to speak plainly.

I am sure there is a lot of context that I may have left out as I am still just starting to read the Bible again, so please forgive me. I am starting with the Gospels. This is clearly mainly interpretation on my part.

I think ultimately it is a choice for every person to make. It is a personal choice. It is a very difficult choice. I do think there may be a way through Jesus and forgiveness from being repentant, for I believe that is the way he gave to us. That is to say if one chooses to do so. There are plenty of justifications for it certainly like self defense and defense of others. It is a path that is full of suffering, but in truth what path is without? I personally believe it is a treacherous path in some cases just with my personal experience with my fellow veterans and issues with PTSD. It is justifiable, but it is dangerous too. People fall out of faith all the time due to things like this. If the goal is to remain in the faith with the Spirit, then tread carefully I think is another good warning.

Speaking of faith, ultimately it is about faith in God and his will. Doubt will call us to justify many things that Jesus spoke against. God knows this too as he knows us well. He's seen us for centuries now. He knows this stuff. If it comes to that, then I suggest pray for them and their family and repent for yourself and forgive. That is the best I have for this subject. I hope it helps.
 
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PollyJetix

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Hi BukiRob ..I really appreciate Jeremiah and have been blessed by also reading many of the minor prophets . What I think is interesting is potentially seeing history repeating itself. Look in Jeremiah 23:14 and further. It is my understanding that those called to be saints are part of the priesthood and yet legally sanctioned adultery and bigamy ( called divorce and remarriage ) is commonplace in the church. Covetousness is called being a good steward and good citizen ( provided we give 10% , it is ok to use the other 90% for our own kingdom . ) Covetousness was one of the snares of the priesthood with whom Jesus was in contention.
I was born and raised Mennonite, so I know where you are coming from.
But the foundation of anabaptism (the view of throwing out the Old Testament moral law) is not Biblical.
Jesus introduced the Sermon on the Mount with "I came not to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill."
What does fulfill mean? Does it mean to contradict? No.

What Christ did, when He fulfilled the Law, was, He BECAME all those things of the Law contained in outward ordinances. He became our Sacrifice for sin. We no longer offer animals. He became our cleanness, as Gentiles. Therefore we no longer have to carefully avoid unclean physical meats. He became all those things that were foreshadowed.

However, in His fulfillment of the Law, did Christ do away with the old moral standard? If He did, then He would have been saying that the moral law, as a standard, was imperfect, and fell short in what it required. Is this what the Word of God says? No.
Psalm 19 says the Law of the Lord is perfect. Psalm 119 says God's Law endures to all generations. Even to today.

In fact, Jesus said not one jot or one tittle of the Law could fail or pass away until heaven and earth pass. Last I checked, that hadn't happened yet.

Paul said that even under the New Covenant, he could not have known sin, except by the standard of the Law.
John said the same thing, when he gave the definition of sin under the New Covenant: "Sin is the transgression of the Law."

Paul also said the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good!
This includes the Law that allows divorce and remarriage. This includes the law that requires defending the defenseless.

The reason you understand it is now wrong, is because you have been taught wrong.
But God never changes. What he once said was holy, will always be holy.
What He said once was an abomination, will always remain so. (even Deuteronomy 24:3-4)

Jesus introduced no new teachings. Everything He taught was in the Old Testament.
Matthew 5 was only a rebuke to the Pharisees, who were supposed to be keeping the Law of Moses, but instead were keeping the teachings of "them of old time" who were Pharisee rabbis who had died over a hundred years before Christ.

The Law fell short only in the ability to make the comers thereunto perfect.
Not as a standard of right and wrong.
 
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outlawState

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I think if we live by the sword we shall die by it. It is a life choice really. We are not to resist evil for I believe we risk filling our hearts with evil as well as uprooting the wheat with the weeds if we do.
You are confusing what you might do in a civil society, with what you might do in an uncivil society. Jesus and the apostles all lived in the days of Pax Romana, i.e. times of peace guaranteed by numerous legions of Roman soldiers stationed at the frontiers of the empire. Not once did Jesus or the apostles ever condemn a soldier for being a soldier. So being a soldier in not de facto against Christianity.

Fast forward to the days of Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours 732AD. If he and his soldiers had not massacred the muslims armies, you would not be a Christian, for the whole world would be muslim. So I cannot agree with you. As per Ecclesiastes 3:8, "there is a time for war and a time for peace."
 
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SolomonVII

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You are confusing what you might do in a civil society, with what you might do in an uncivil society. Jesus and the apostles all lived in the days of Pax Romana, i.e. times of peace guaranteed by numerous legions of Roman soldiers stationed at the frontiers of the empire. Not once did Jesus or the apostles ever condemn a soldier for being a soldier. So being a soldier in not de facto against Christianity.

Fast forward to the days of Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours 732AD. If he and his soldiers had not massacred the muslims armies, you would not be a Christian, for the whole world would be muslim. So I cannot agree with you. As per Ecclesiastes 3:8, "there is a time for war and a time for peace."
Jesus did not have a political bone in his body. He rejected a political messiahship for himself. He rejected summoning up the hosts of heaven to overthrow Rome. He accepted the authority of Rome as something legitimate in its own realm.
His kingdom was a personal one, and his law instructed the heart and were involved in cleansing our own personal relationships with the people who we were involved with in our daily lives.
Far from rejecting soldiers, he commented on the faith of one centurion as amazing to him, and greater than that of his own Jewish people.
 
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Philip_B

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Jesus did not have a political bone in his body.
I think this statement is a reach too far. I think Jesus was very politically aware. The point being that he did not allow politics to inform his faith. Our challenge is to ensure that we allow our faith to inform our politics, and not the other way around.
 
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NeedyFollower

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I was born and raised Mennonite, so I know where you are coming from.
But the foundation of anabaptism (the view of throwing out the Old Testament moral law) is not Biblical.
Jesus introduced the Sermon on the Mount with "I came not to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill."
What does fulfill mean? Does it mean to contradict? No.

What Christ did, when He fulfilled the Law, was, He BECAME all those things of the Law contained in outward ordinances. He became our Sacrifice for sin. We no longer offer animals. He became our cleanness, as Gentiles. Therefore we no longer have to carefully avoid unclean physical meats. He became all those things that were foreshadowed.

However, in His fulfillment of the Law, did Christ do away with the old moral standard? If He did, then He would have been saying that the moral law, as a standard, was imperfect, and fell short in what it required. Is this what the Word of God says? No.
Psalm 19 says the Law of the Lord is perfect. Psalm 119 says God's Law endures to all generations. Even to today.

In fact, Jesus said not one jot or one tittle of the Law could fail or pass away until heaven and earth pass. Last I checked, that hadn't happened yet.

Paul said that even under the New Covenant, he could not have known sin, except by the standard of the Law.
John said the same thing, when he gave the definition of sin under the New Covenant: "Sin is the transgression of the Law."

Paul also said the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good!
This includes the Law that allows divorce and remarriage. This includes the law that requires defending the defenseless.

The reason you understand it is now wrong, is because you have been taught wrong.
But God never changes. What he once said was holy, will always be holy.
What He said once was an abomination, will always remain so. (even Deuteronomy 24:3-4)

Jesus introduced no new teachings. Everything He taught was in the Old Testament.
Matthew 5 was only a rebuke to the Pharisees, who were supposed to be keeping the Law of Moses, but instead were keeping the teachings of "them of old time" who were Pharisee rabbis who had died over a hundred years before Christ.

The Law fell short only in the ability to make the comers thereunto perfect.
Not as a standard of right and wrong.
Hi Sister ..I was never Mennonite nor Amish ( old order or otherwise ) Jesus IS the fulfillment of the Law ( That is why he "took the stoning" for the woman caught in adultery but said go and sin no more . ) He did not do away with the Law but brought us a better Law . He fulfilled the Old Law in himself and will not pass away and became a curse for us and became sin for us. But there was a change ( not that the old law failed or passed away ...if not , He could not say , " It was written , but I say , etc. It is because when He died and rose , He swallowed up the Law . If there was not a change then we have no high priest for Christ was not of the house of Aaron but of Judah , he was not a Levite and thus according to "THE LAW" can not be a priest....never .

Regarding divorce and remarriage , like most things including the gospel , we make it ABOUT US ...MY happiness , MY eternity , MY marriage , . Marriage is for us but ABOUT God through Christ Jesus . In order to demonstrate the oneness of God to a polytheistic society . In order to demonstrate the restoration of the oneness of the origianal Adam and Eve before Eve was taken from Adam . In order to demonstrate God's faithfulness despite our faithlessness . Divorce is rampant because we are selfish and not long suffering . we hear , " My wife cheated on me so I get to divorce her and remarry a real christian woman " ...we will have more kids along with her 4 or 5 and that will demonstrate what to the children ???? God ? They may divorce but to remarry is opposed to every teaching of Christ and His Word and really it is opposed to real love . I do not know another God . Let the christian women learn to be keepers at home so that THE WORD OF GOD be not blasphemed . I think the problem is , our agenda has taken precedent of the word of God . Is the living word of God important or have we traded Him for another that favors self ?
 
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outlawState

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Jesus did not have a political bone in his body. He rejected a political messiahship for himself. He rejected summoning up the hosts of heaven to overthrow Rome. He accepted the authority of Rome as something legitimate in its own realm.
His kingdom was a personal one, and his law instructed the heart and were involved in cleansing our own personal relationships with the people who we were involved with in our daily lives.
Far from rejecting soldiers, he commented on the faith of one centurion as amazing to him, and greater than that of his own Jewish people.
Jesus said "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar." Jesus recognized Caesar as an authority appointed by God. He was not airy-fairy. And as I said, he recognized soldership as a valid occupation, and so by implication, war also. Moreover was not the state of Israel established by war?
 
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Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali, the boxer had it right when he refused to be drafted into the Viet Nam war...he knew it was nothing but the globalist/international bankers/military industrial sponsored war to control that little country. Most wars are just that, for global domination on behalf of the fat cat Globalist agenda.

Even though Mohammed Ali refused military draft, the religion he embraced is very much militant.
 
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