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2 Corinthians 3 does not condemn the Bible or scripture or Ten Comm

BobRyan

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That is right my friends - it is "still" a sin to "Take God's name in vain" even after reading 2 Corinthians 3. Paul is not trying to argue in 2 Cor 3 that the Bible has been deleted or that the Commandments of God have been deleted.

The Commandments of God have TWO roles - one for the lost and one for the saved.

For the lost we have Romans 3:19-21 where all the world is still held accountable - still condemned even after the cross - as sinners that need the Gospel.

But once someone accepts the Gospel we have the Romans 6 situation - described best in the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 and still-unchanged in Hebrews 8:6-10.

The SAME Law written on stone -- the moral law of God - is "written on tablets of the human heart". For the lost sinner - the Law is merely external on stone - it condemns.

For the saved saint - it is written "on the heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33.
 

BobRyan

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2 Corinthians chapter 3

The context from the start is the contrast between the 10 Commandments “law written on tablets of stone” externally – vs the New Covenant “law written on the tablets of the human heart”.

2 you are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

The subject is the contrast between the use of the law in the Old Covenant and the new - notice that both the old and New Covenant are the subjects of 2Cor3.

2Cor 3
vs 6 "who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant"

Where the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 writes that LAW "on the heart and mind". It is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - the Law that defines what sin is - that is written on the heart and mind in Jeremiah 31.

That Law included things like "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - and it still does include that commandment.

It also includes the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:2 - in that still-valie unit of TEN.

Such that Paul can ask this question "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

Thus it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain - Exodus 20:7

vs 14 "until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remains unlifted because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away"

(notice it does not say whenever they stop reading Moses the veil is taken way - rather when they turn to the Lord (the one true God) they can read Moses with the veil taken away.)

This contrast of outward focus in the Old Covenant and inward in the New Covenant is amplified in these words regarding the law

"you are a letter of Christ cared for by us written not with ink, but wih the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone (- 10 Commandments external on stone) but on tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3:3 that which is written outwardly on "tablets of stone" in the Old Covenant (God's law) is written inwardly "on tablets of the human heart" under the New Covenant.

Romans 3:19-21 external on stone - they still condemn the entire world - "every mouth shut" they still define what sin is - according to Romans 3.

God further makes the same New Covenant point in Hebrews 8 "I will write my laws upon their hearts" Heb 8:10 --- which is a repeat of Jeremiah 31:33 where the term law in it's highest purest form is the law for Jeremiah written on tablets of stone (as Paul tells us).

So when God speaks these words to his prophet about writing inwardly that which the infinite unchanging creator God calls "law" (inwardly on the heart) - the context demands that we consider the 10 Commandments as the primary reference. James 2 is in full agreement with this giving us examples of the "law" of God - as "the law of liberty" - and the examples are simply excerpts from the law written on tablets of stone. (do not murder, and do not commit adultery).

Romans 2 makes it clear that real Christians "show that the work of the law is written on their hearts"


Romans 2:15. Regarding pagans who have no scripture but "do instinctively the things of the law" ..."for when gentiles who do not have the law - do instinctively the things of the law..."

- clearly it is the same law
of the infinite unchanging creator God which they do not have outwardly, but do have it written on their heart inwardly. That same law is expanded and shown to be the same outward law of the Jews in this same chapter "if therefore the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And will not he who is physically uncircumcised if he keeps the law will he not judge you though having the letter of the law and physically circumcised - as a transgressor of the law"

"for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart - by the spirit -- not by the letter". Rom 2:26-29

and of course the Romans view of what the law is - is the same as the “tablets of stone” we find in 2Cor 3—for Romans quotes from it.

Rom 7:

- 7 what shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, i would not have come to know sin except through the law; for i would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, "" you shall not covet.''
8 but sin, taking opportunity through the Commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the law; but when the Commandment came, sin became alive and i died;
10 and this Commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;


-
(Note: Paul also calls the law "scripture" -


- Gal 3:21 is the law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 but the scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
)


Ephesians 6:2 - is that 10 Commandment unit written on tablets of stone - whose "first Commandment with a promise" according to Paul - is the 5th Commandment to honor parents.

2Cor 3:
5 not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Clearly the Gospel - New Covenant is the alternative to death - to that which kills. Only one gospel, only one way of salvation. The New Covenant.



- And the key to this is the fact that the spirit of God is working on the "tablets of the human heart" with the law that would otherwise simply be written on "tablets of stone".

-

2Cor 3
7 but if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the spirit fail to be even more with glory?

as even Romans 3:19-21 states the moral law of God is indeed the minister of death for it condemns all mankind under sin. Still does - even after the cross. So that all will have the need of the Gospel.

Again the contrast - death vs life. While the law is not written on the heart - while it is simply external - engraved on stone, it only serves to
condemn us. Paul made this very clear in Romans. "the wages of sin is death". God's scripture has placed all men under sin. Romans 3, Gal 3.



- The law is not a "means of salvation" - but the New Covenant does something with the law of God - it writes it on the "tablets of the human heart" -
no longer merely "external" but part of the transformed "new creation" old things passed away - saints "obeying from the heart".

==================

False doctrine says that Moses is the author of the Old Covenant and that at the reading of Paul there is a veil over their eyes who are stuck under Moses and the Old Covenant.

In the Bible says it is Moses they are not seeing clearly when they read scriptures written by Moses - if they are under the Old Covenant.

In the Bible it is Moses and Elijah that stand WITH Christ in glory in Matt 17.

False doctrine says that "some other gospel - not the one preached by Christ before the cross - is to be proclaimed through all the world"

But in Matt 10 it is "THIS Gospel of the kingdom" that is to be preached long after the cross - into all the world. That pre-cross Gospel.

In Mark 7:6-13 it is the Gospel of Christ that is upholding Moses' teaching saying that "Moses said" = "Word of God" = "Commandment of God"

Notice how Jesus "gets down to the smallest details" when it comes to those trying to edit/downsize/side-step" even one sliver of His Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye

Notice that "Moses said", "Word of God", "Commandment of God" ... are all in one category -- while "your tradition' and "your own tradition" and "tradition of men" are in another category --- according to Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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1 John 5:2-3 says LOVE for God is shown by keeping His Commandments.

John 14:10 says God's commands are Christ's and that Christ has none of His own.
John 12:48-50 says God's Commands are Christ's and that Christ has none of His own

Exodus 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"
 
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BobRyan

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Sin is "DEFINED" as "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT.

And James 2:8-12 is ALSO in the NT. Telling us that the same 10 COMM still are binding.

As does Ephesians 6:2 make that point.

As does Mark 7:6-13 make that point

Even pro-sunday scholars admit to this same Bible detail

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
 
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BobRyan

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Look at how the OT summarizes the Commandments given at Sinai...

Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Lev 19:18
...but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:

Where do you think the NT writers were quoting from... there's nothing new under the sun my friend... choose the plain words of Christ and not you interpretation of Paul's words. Do not say in that day "Lord, did I not do all I understood Paul to say?"

Amen -- good point
 
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BABerean2

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Paul is not trying to argue in 2 Cor 3 that the Bible has been deleted or that the Commandments of God have been deleted.

No. They were not "deleted".
They were made "obsolete" by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13).


Paul calls the Sinai covenant "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones", when comparing it to the New Covenant.
This is a vertical cliff you must attempt to climb, without any equipment, when you attempt to make the Sinai covenant and the New Covenant one and the same.
It cannot be done without a corruption of the text.



2Co 3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 
2Co 3:7  But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 
2Co 3:8  how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 

.
 
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Bob S

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Why is it those who are promoting that the Torah is what is written on our hearts, but have taken upon themselves to remove most of the 613 laws of Torah and cling to the 10 commandments and some promote the feast days. If Torah is what is written on the tablets of the heart why isn't the Holy Spirit guiding millions of Christians to observe all of it.

I have heard all the excuses given by adherents. The big one is that there is no temple. Pool you money and build one if that is what is written on the heart. Do not cut your sideburns as indicated in the law. Do not depend on the modern way of caring for women's periods, the law says to send them out. I could go on and on refuting the way you treat what you suppose is the "real" meaning of 2Cor3. What you are actually doing is digging a hole which you cannot get out.

May I remind you that the word "ten commandments" is never used in the New Testament. Those who promote keeping old covenant Sabbath and feast days want to put a "ten" before commandments to make us believe Christians are subject to them. That is to make us think we are under obligation to observe the ritual Sabbath fourth commandment that was given only to Israel to commemorate and remember.

2Cor3 is about allowing the Holy Spirit to guide Christians into a righteous life and doing away with the 10 as being the guide. The 10 didn't even tell us to love anyone.
 
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bugkiller

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That is right my friends - it is "still" a sin to "Take God's name in vain" even after reading 2 Corinthians 3. Paul is not trying to argue in 2 Cor 3 that the Bible has been deleted or that the Commandments of God have been deleted.

The Commandments of God have TWO roles - one for the lost and one for the saved.

For the lost we have Romans 3:19-21 where all the world is still held accountable - still condemned even after the cross - as sinners that need the Gospel.

But once someone accepts the Gospel we have the Romans 6 situation - described best in the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 and still-unchanged in Hebrews 8:6-10.

The SAME Law written on stone -- the moral law of God - is "written on tablets of the human heart". For the lost sinner - the Law is merely external on stone - it condemns.

For the saved saint - it is written "on the heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33.
No the covenant made with Israel was and is not written on the heart according to the verses cited above.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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1 John 5:2-3 says LOVE for God is shown by keeping His Commandments.

John 14:10 says God's commands are Christ's and that Christ has none of His own.
No it does not. I refer you to Jn 5:10.
John 12:48-50 says God's Commands are Christ's and that Christ has none of His own

Exodus 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Jn 15

Further proof is -

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. LK 16

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: II Cor 3

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Sin is "DEFINED" as "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT.
No sin is defined as also a transgression of the law. Read the whole verse.
And James 2:8-12 is ALSO in the NT. Telling us that the same 10 COMM still are binding.
No James is not.
As does Ephesians 6:2 make that point.
What point?
As does Mark 7:6-13 make that point
No it does not.
Even pro-sunday scholars admit to this same Bible detail

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
Both Moody and Sproul are clearly being falsely accused.

bugkiller
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Sin is "DEFINED" as "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


No sin is defined as also a transgression of the law. Read the whole verse.b

Don't mind if I do --

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 
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BobRyan

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Sin is "DEFINED" as "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT.

And James 2:8-12 is ALSO in the NT. Telling us that the same 10 COMM still are binding.

As does Ephesians 6:2 make that point.

As does Mark 7:6-13 make that point

Even pro-sunday scholars admit to this same Bible detail

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.


No sin is defined as also a transgression of the law. Read the whole verse. No James is not.What point?No it does not.Both Moody and Sproul are clearly being falsely accused.
bugkiller

Huh?? does that even make sense?

In any case that is good summation of our 2016 exchanges... now for 2017.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Sin is "DEFINED" as "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


No sin is defined as also a transgression of the law. Read the whole verse.b

Don't mind if I do --

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
.


Your idea is sin is only transgressing the law. This simply can not be true because the law was added because of transgression - Gal 3:19 and sin was before the law - Rom 5:13.

Where there is no law - there is no sin.

'Abraham kept my statutes commandments and laws" Genesis 26. The very thing you seem to argue - cannot exist.

Please note - you frame your objection as an objection to the content of 1 John 3:4 itself. The mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to your strong objection to it.
 
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BobRyan

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True in a snese. Now how was there sin before the law? Any way the verse you have in mind is rom 4:15 which says no law no transgression. 4:5 says sin is not imputed (charged) with out law.

True - that point remains. Nice that you see it too.

And Genesis points out that Abraham also kept God's Law, Commandments, Statutes - as many of us know - Moses writes both Exodus and Genesis and is writing for the same readers - who would have access to both texts.

Which explains why we have mention of clean and unclean animals in Genesis 7 but the distinction is not "defined" his readers - until they read it in Lev 11.

Paying attention to Bible details instead of ignoring them is not "batting zero" as we all know.
 
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bugkiller

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True - that point remains. Nice that you see it too.

And Genesis points out that Abraham also kept God's Law, Commandments, Statutes - as many of us know - Moses writes both Exodus and Genesis and is writing for the same readers - who would have access to both texts.

Which explains why we have mention of clean and unclean animals in Genesis 7 but the distinction is not "defined" his readers - until they read it in Lev 11.

Paying attention to Bible details instead of ignoring them is not "batting zero" as we all know.
Your position is Abraham kept the law AKA 10 Cs when Moses says no in Deut 5 and Paul says the law came 430 years after Abraham.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

bugkiller
 
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BobRyan

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True in a snese. Now how was there sin before the law? Any way the verse you have in mind is rom 4:15 which says no law no transgression. 4:5 says sin is not imputed (charged) with out law.

True - that point remains. Nice that you see it too.

And Genesis points out that Abraham also kept God's Law, Commandments, Statutes - as many of us know - Moses writes both Exodus and Genesis and is writing for the same readers - who would have access to both texts.

Which explains why we have mention of clean and unclean animals in Genesis 7 but the distinction is not "defined" his readers - until they read it in Lev 11.

Paying attention to Bible details instead of ignoring them is not "batting zero" as we all know.

Did he also write Deuteronomy which says in Deuteronomy 5:1-3 that the Sinai covenant was not given earlier?

Did Moses forget what he wrote in Exodus 34:28 about the 10 commandments being the Sinai covenant?

If you think Abraham was under the Sinai Covenant you may want to start looking for some Gopher wood, because next you will need to start building your boat, since Noah also followed some of God's commandments...

.

I think he wrote Genesis 26 where we are told that Abraham kept God's "commandments, Statutes and laws" -- then later - Moses more fully details what it is that are included in God's "commandments statutes and Laws" -- turns out "it is wrong to take God's name in vain" -- even wrong for Adam to do it.
 
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BobRyan

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Your position is Abraham kept the law AKA 10 Cs when Moses says no in Deut 5

Turns out - it is wrong to take God's name in vain -- even wrong for Adam to do it.

And almost all Christian scholars admit to this detail that you seem to claim "should not exist"

Moses does not agree with you on that point - not even in Deuteronomy 5.
 
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Bob S

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Turns out - it is wrong to take God's name in vain -- even wrong for Adam to do it.

And almost all Christian scholars admit to this detail that you seem to claim "should not exist"

Moses does not agree with you on that point - not even in Deuteronomy 5.
Morality is forever. Man is born with the sense of morality. Do you believe the 10 commandments are the final words that covers all morality?

Gal 5: 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Pastor Bob, you tell us that the 10 commandments represents the character of God and those 10 have been around since Adam. Care to explain when there is nothing in the 10 that represents even love let alone the list above? None of them tell me that I have to love anyone. I, potentially, could keep all of them out of fear or duty. Even the Boy Scout oath tells us to be morally straight.

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.


Could it be that Paul wrote 2Cor 3:7-11 because those rules were partial and were only temporary? Now that Jesus has given each one of us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we really don't need a partial list of how we should treat God and our fellow man?

2Cor3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!


It really sounds like you are spreading the wrong Gospel pastor. You are correct in that,
2 Corinthians 3 does not condemn the Bible or scripture or Ten Commandments,

but that is absolutely a mute point. What is reality is the fact that the 10 commandments are not the guide for Christians. They guided Israel. Our guide is the Holy Spirit and I do not understand why you will not recognize this fact.
 
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