Do all adults have authority over all children?

[Hank77]

It could be something as innocuous as, "You'd better behave!" But the thing is, it was her place to be saying that, not his. To further illustrate, in one particular case we were getting out of the car to go to a restaurant (the entire family) and on the way in, before anything had even happened, he took it on himself to preemptively bark at us, "Now, you kids had better behave while we're in here!" We had known that man for less than 24 hours. I had a definite feeling of, "Who are you, exactly?"

She would go on to live with him for two years, and over time, it became more and more obvious, he just liked pushing people around, that's all. I could see it right away, but she didn't listen to me because I was only 16 years old; what did I know? She scolded me for objecting. Told me, as I illustrated earlier in the thread, that telling kids to behave isn't exerting authority, dishing out punishments is, and she'll say something if he starts doing that. In the meantime, I'm supposed to shut up.

Within a week, she silently watched as he beat the living daylights out of my brother, then 15 years old. Just stood there watching him do it, and didn't say a thing.

Oh, and the year earlier, I had already earned the privilege of having my bedtime lifted. Because I had demonstrated that I could be responsible and get myself up for school in the morning, I earned the right to choose when I went to bed, rather than be sent at a set time. He revoked that, and put me back on an arbitrary bedtime, just because he could.

Most of the two years she lived with him, I was in the custody of my grandparents instead. It ended, not surprisingly, with domestic violence toward her. Funny, she'll let a man do whatever in the name of disciplining her children, and it isn't over until it gets to where he's hitting her too.

What you were subjected to in your young life was not a healthy environment for any child. I am truly sorry that you and your siblings lived through this. What you are talking about is bullying and abusive. It is a deliberate act of destructive behaviors. Unfortunately it was your mother who gave these destructive people authority over you.

 

[Hank77]

I don't disagree with you, RD. If my child was doing something that placed another in danger, I would expect others to act as I would. However, if my child is not placing another in danger but is instead doing something that might stand against you ethics (but not mine) then you have no authority to teach my child.

Let me make an assumption... if I am wrong, please forgive me. Your profile simply says, "Christian." I assume that you view either Mormanism or the Jehovah's Witnesses in a negative light. What if they came to your home when you were not present and began to attempt to teach your children about their ways? What if a Muslim attempted to place a wedge between your child and you and began to indoctrinate him/her with aspects of Sharia law? Do you just let it go? Do you just say, "Oh, isn't that nice because it does take a village to raise my child?" Or do you understand that they lack any authority to usurp YOUR authority with your children and do something about it?

Not sure why you are bringing this up in this thread. We haven't been talking about teaching other people's children anything.

 

[Ken Rank]

Not sure why you are bringing this up in this thread. We haven't been talking about teaching other people's children anything.

It is about authority. If I do not give you the authority to teach my child, then you have no right to teach my child. Do you as an adult have authority over my child? No... unless I give it to you. And the idea that one can come and push their religious views on my child offends me and shows they don't understand Scriptural boundaries or likely what the great commission is really saying.

 

[Near]

Near.... you have NO AUTHORITY to preach to somebody else's child. Show me a verse? You can't... you do not have authority over anyone else's child, it just isn't in Scripture. Respectfully... the idea that you can go and teach another child against the will of the parents God entrusted with that child shows you don't understand boundaries, authority. Sorry... I am not trying to cause strife, I just don't know how else to say it.

I see you are single... no children? You'll understand when you have them.

It has nothing to do with authority and everything to do with preaching the gospel. I am GLAD I heard a street preacher on the street spreading the gospel to everyone including children!
The will of the parents is only good as long as it's within what God has put in the bible. If some parents raise their kids to become members of islamic terror groups I'd think it would have been better had they heard the gospel and been saved as kids. We can't be like the world and be politically correct all of the time.

 

[Ken Rank]

It has nothing to do with authority and everything to do with preaching the gospel. I am GLAD I heard a street preacher on the street spreading the gospel to everyone including children!
The will of the parents is only good as long as it's within what God has put in the bible. If some parents raise their kids to become members of islamic terror groups I'd think it would have been better had they heard the gospel and been saved as kids. We can't be like the world and be politically correct all of the time.

It isn't about political correctness at all... it is about respecting boundaries that GOD put into place. Look, Paul wrote that God (the Father) is the head of Christ, and Christ is the head of man. Man is the head of woman.... now... do you think you have the right to come to my wife and teach her in a manner that stands opposed to my understanding of God? Undermine how we worship as a family unit? Do you not see how that could divide us... cause us to break apart and destroy a VOW we took before God? You probably don't... but I will tell you this... I would NEVER try to teach another man's wife nor his children because GOD made HIM the head of HIS HOME.

 

[ken777]

In my long life I have seen significant changes in the way adults relate to children. When Christian values were respected by most, most adults conveyed similar messages regarding children's behavior. Parents appreciated another adult issuing direction to their child if s/he was behaving inappropriately.

Now, we have to stop and wonder if we are using politically correct language, and a touch of any kind must be avoided, to the extent that even a crying child cannot be physically comforted. I would be loath to intervene physically even if I saw a child being beaten by an older boy - hopefully I would overcome my pc fears, and fears of litigation, and physically separate them along with a stern rebuke.

Sometimes I am the only adult at a children's playground with my grandaughter, when I could see a child heading for an accident, but made only mild comments ("it might hurt when you fall") and consoled myself by thinking "experience is the best teacher"

 

[squirrel123]

Authority should be earned, not granted by virtue of age. I think it's dangerous for children and teens to be trained in the thought that all adults are entitled to power over them, because that has the potential for harm. Not just in the most blatantly nefarious of circumstances but in more subtle ones. If kids are under the belief that all adults are endowed with authority they are more likely to be exploited.

This is very true. This is the reason why I stated that random adults can only enforce existing rules, and no more. I have no authority to send someone else's kid on an errant, or to teach them what I consider to be good manners. I have to right to tell them to follow rules - in which case the authority is based in the rule, not in my age - and I certainly have the right to tell them to respect me (Someone mentioned kids throwing sand in her face...).

Where safety is a concern, I can warn them or approach there parents.

You don't have the authority to stop those kids from tobogganing down a hill. Even if there's risks to themselves. If they were 3/4 and obviously so young that they were clueless and innocent, that's a different story. But to suggest you can go up to a group of 9/10 year olds who are acting recklessly willingly and physically stop them from doing so and exercising authority in that sense is ludacris and shows a very controlling personality.

I believe it is common decency and courtesy to react when you see someone else children are in danger. (of course, unless the parent is standing by and already aware of what is happening).

Sometimes parents aren't aware of what their children are up to. Sometimes children do dangerous thing even after their parents told them not to!

Another example - a few months back, we had to address an issue with a neighbors children, who were racing around our gated community on quad bikes (the youngest is about 6, and none of the kids were wearing helmets, although that wasn't the main issue).
1. Quad bikes are forbidden in our gated community, for various reasons including noise, safety, etc.
2. Even if quad bikes weren't forbidden, the roads are still considered public roads, thus riding the bikes there without a license and without helmets are illegal.
3. The six year old was extremely reckless, probably due to ignorance (he's six, after all!). He crossed side streets without stopping or even looking (if you knew the setup, you would understand that he was a great risk of getting hit by a car), and nearly lost control of the bike around one corner, narrowly missing hitting our car, which was parked next to the road.

We stopped the kids, and told them that quad bikes aren't allowed in there, and told them that either they could just stop, or we could go talk to their parents.

They stopped.

Again - There was a standing rule, we weren't just claiming authority as adults. If there was no such rule, we may have stopped them and told them to be more careful, but we probably would have ended up filming them and showing the footage to their parents. I expect any responsible parent would have addressed the situation after that.

What I know for sure is that if we did nothing and that kid ended up under a car, I would never, ever forgive myself. I'm sorry if that offends parents, but I can't stand by and watch a child risk his life and do nothing. I'd much rather deal with an offended parent than an injured or dead child.

 

[Near]

It isn't about political correctness at all... it is about respecting boundaries that GOD put into place. Look, Paul wrote that God (the Father) is the head of Christ, and Christ is the head of man. Man is the head of woman.... now... do you think you have the right to come to my wife and teach her in a manner that stands opposed to my understanding of God? Undermine how we worship as a family unit? Do you not see how that could divide us... cause us to break apart and destroy a VOW we took before God? You probably don't... but I will tell you this... I would NEVER try to teach another man's wife nor his children because GOD made HIM the head of HIS HOME.

Anyone can teach anyone anything, plainly speaking. A professor can teach a group of students Calculus, and a wise man can provide a wise saying to a stranger on a street. Just because someone is part of a family unit, that does not mean they shall not be taught by others who aren't part of the family unit.
I don't want to refer to your wife, but lets say someone's wife is a muslim. Do I have the husbands permission to share the gospel with her, or must I ask the muslim husband whether or not I may share the gospel?
I don't see any biblical reason to ask permission to share the gospel, since I don't care about being PC. I'll teach another man, and his wife, and his children a few english words if they don't know the difference between an escalator and and elevator. Teaching has nothing to do with being the head, or authority of another person. It's just sharing information. In fact, you're sharing information with me. If I was a married woman, you'd be attempting to educate a married woman. I'm a 23-year old man, but I still live with my parents, you need to ask my dad for permission to teach me anything. He's a Catholic though, and I'm not.

 

[Hank77]

It is about authority. If I do not give you the authority to teach my child, then you have no right to teach my child. Do you as an adult have authority over my child? No... unless I give it to you. And the idea that one can come and push their religious views on my child offends me and shows they don't understand Scriptural boundaries or likely what the great commission is really saying.

No one has been talking about teaching or sharing religious views. That is not what this thread has been about. Can we stay on topic, please?

 

[RDKirk]

Let me make an assumption... if I am wrong, please forgive me. Your profile simply says, "Christian." I assume that you view either Mormanism or the Jehovah's Witnesses in a negative light. What if they came to your home when you were not present and began to attempt to teach your children about their ways? What if a Muslim attempted to place a wedge between your child and you and began to indoctrinate him/her with aspects of Sharia law? Do you just let it go? Do you just say, "Oh, isn't that nice because it does take a village to raise my child?" Or do you understand that they lack any authority to usurp YOUR authority with your children and do something about it?

We're not talking about someone coming into my home when I'm not there and proselytizing my children. You've gone 'way off the silly end.

We're talking about an adult out on a crowded public sidewalk telling a teenager to stop spraying graffiti on someone else's window, or a bunch of kids bullying some other child to stop their bullying, or any of a host of antisocial activities that kids will do out in general society when their parents are not around.

 

[RDKirk]

It is about authority. If I do not give you the authority to teach my child, then you have no right to teach my child. Do you as an adult have authority over my child? No... unless I give it to you. And the idea that one can come and push their religious views on my child offends me and shows they don't understand Scriptural boundaries or likely what the great commission is really saying.

Nobody is talking about religious views. We're talking about offensive social behavior.

 

[RDKirk]

This is very true. This is the reason why I stated that random adults can only enforce existing rules, and no more. I have no authority to send someone else's kid on an errant, or to teach them what I consider to be good manners. I have to right to tell them to follow rules - in which case the authority is based in the rule, not in my age - and I certainly have the right to tell them to respect me (Someone mentioned kids throwing sand in her face...).
.

When I was on active military duty, technically speaking I had authority over everyone junior to me in rank. However, we all knew that you didn't "take command" over someone who hadn't been formally placed under your command in normal situations.

Yet, we certainly could direct someone to adhere to military regulations if we saw them varying from them. I could not send any given person on an errand just because they were junior in rank, but I certainly could point out that they were out of uniform, or take authority if I observed them breaking the law.

And actually, I could point such things out even to people senior to me in rank, because as you said, "the authority is based on the rule"--or rather, based on the higher social authority that instituted the rule.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm not talking about in extreme situations. I hope it's obvious, nobody would expect a child to obey when some creepazoid says, "Get in my car and go for a ride with me."

Under ordinary circumstances, though, how much authority do adults have, simply by virtue of being adults? Teachers, scout leaders, etc., that's one thing, but perfect strangers? Would you issue a command to a child you don't know, and expect obedience? Or would you say it instead as a suggestion or request, but not as a command? Would it make a difference if there is a safety risk involved, IE telling them to stay away from that growling stray dog, as opposed to telling them to watch their language? At what times would you require your own children to obey the word of adults, just because they are adults? For that matter, does respect always involve obedience, or is it possible to respectfully decline to obey? And how long does this continue? In other words, is obedience to all adults still required of teenagers?

Adults have authority within the area of social authorization given to them by the associated community; in other words, they have the authority that they are given by others, and they do not have an authority over children by simply being adults.

There are fellow Christians I've met who thought they had "authority" over my own child...................an authority I NEVER imputed to those adults, despite the fact that they were Christian.

By corollary, I do not assume I have authority over other people's children, although I do assume that God expects me to be a good steward of other people's children if there are situations in which those children are to be under my care for some allotted time. I would expect the same from other Christians, or whoever, in turn, as similar situations may pertain to my own child.

I've noticed some Christians have a tendency to assume that holding a Bible in the right hand gives them leave to direct with the left hand.

The funny thing is, I've also noticed some Ultra-Liberal types think they have authority over me in telling me how much authority that I, and by proxy they, have over my child.

NOT SO ON ANY OF THESE COUNTS!

And so then, from whence does the authority over a child come, ultimately? What is the nature, structure, and social dynamics of that authority?

2PhiloVoid

 

[Ken Rank]

Parents appreciated another adult issuing direction to their child if s/he was behaving inappropriately.

Interesting Ken, I would be more apt to appreciate somebody physically intervening (if my child was causing or potentially causing harm to another) then I would with somebody trying to take authority over them in regards to how they are raised. I wonder, since I appear to be in the minority here, if some of this isn't the result of what I believe is a faulty view of Romans 13? I don't believe and can teach with confidence, that those first few verses are dealing with secular leaders but rather elders and those God has in positions of authority for His house. But, I will make Romans 13 another thread over the weekend. Blessings.

 

[Greg J.]

Adults have authority within the area of social authorization given to them by the associated community; in other words, they have the authority that they are given by others, and they do not have an authority over children by simply being adults.

There are fellow Christians I've met who thought they had "authority" over my own child...................an authority I NEVER imputed to those adults, despite the fact that they were Christian.

By corollary, I do not assume I have authority over other people's children, although I do assume that God expects me to be a good steward of other people's children if there are situations in which those children are to be under my care for some allotted time. I would expect the same from other Christians, or whoever, in turn, as similar situations may pertain to my own child.

I've noticed some Christians have a tendency to assume that holding a Bible in the right hand gives them leave to direct with the left hand.

The funny thing is, I've also noticed some Ultra-Liberal types think they have authority over me in telling me how much authority that I, and by proxy they, have over my child.

NOT SO ON ANY OF THESE COUNTS!

And so then, from whence does the authority over a child come, ultimately? What is the nature, structure, and social dynamics of that authority?

2PhiloVoid

You speak of spiritual blindness that causes me pain to hear and think about. As for the ultra-liberal types, you might remind them that whatever rights they strive for will be granted to you as well. People complain about the power of the President, but whatever power is given or taken away will affect both their future favorite and least favorite Presidents. People want religion out of the schools. The day may come when atheism will be legally considered a religion, then things will get really interesting.

 

[Ken Rank]

Nobody is talking about religious views. We're talking about offensive social behavior.

@Greg J. in post #18 brought up God given authority, in post #20, the thread creator, @LovebirdsFlying stated, "It was just mind boggling to me. If I was supposed to obey all men as if they were my father, then what was so special about my father? Why did God single out, obey your parents, if you're supposed to obey all adults anyway?" So this did drift into a religious discussion before I entered it (plus it is a Christian forum). And, no offense, but I don't need to ask your permission to share my thoughts on this subject. Authority is something Christians don't have a lot of understanding on. They read Romans 13 and think we are to subject ourselves to secular leaders.... which means Hitler? That conclusion means Hitler and since we KNOW God wouldn't have wanted that, and with there being no wiggle room in those first few verses to avoid a Hitler... then it can't have ever been talking about secular leaders to begin with. God set forth a structure, not a ruling structure but one designed to keep chaos at bay. God, then Christ, then man, then woman.... and the latter two are the authority for their children. You don't have authority over my son and daughter, I do. And if I do poorly with them I answer for that... it is a village for Hillary but not for God in that sense.

 

[Greg J.]

@Ken Rank, I reread #18 and #20 and I am not seeing everything about which you seem to have written.

And, no offense, but I don't need to ask your permission to share my thoughts on this subject.

I have no idea what I said that led you write this.

We are indeed to subject ourselves to our secular leaders, because their authority has come from God. If the community has been following Christ with all their hearts, then God will fix all problems with those with authority over us. If the community has not been devoted followers, then we miss some of the blessings God wants to give and instead we get some of what we deserve. (Everything short of eternal condemnation is by the grace of God alone.)

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. (bold mine, Romans 13:1, NASB)

 

[Ken Rank]

Anyone can teach anyone anything, plainly speaking. A professor can teach a group of students Calculus

If I enrolled my child in that class, then that professor was given authority by the one God gave the authority over that child to... to teach. Otherwise, that professor has no authority over my child.

and a wise man can provide a wise saying to a stranger on a street.

If that stranger was an adult, yes. If he was your 10 year old, he does NOT, you do. If you give that wise man the authority/permission... then he does... until then, no he doesn't.

Just because someone is part of a family unit, that does not mean they shall not be taught by others who aren't part of the family unit.

I didn't say that, I said they would need our permission... a teacher can teach my son or daughter when I enroll them in school or sign them up in scouts or a 4H deal or whatever. Otherwise, I am NOT doing my duty as a parent if I am just letting anyone have access to my children. That is how they end up atheists, humanists, evolutionists, and any other "ist" that stands opposed to God's will and character. In the latter days some shall depart from the faith giving way to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.... and you are saying I should just let ANYONE teach my child! Sorry... won't happen.

I don't want to refer to your wife, but lets say someone's wife is a muslim. Do I have the husbands permission to share the gospel with her, or must I ask the muslim husband whether or not I may share the gospel?

I already know what you will do... I would not destroy a marriage for that reason. That is forcing them into MORE SIN.This isn't being PC, that is understanding authority. What do you want that wife to do anyway, say a "sinners prayer" that isn't even in the bible? You have no understanding of authority and are too young to realize that in a few years you will look back at what you believe today and realize that you have grown in depth and understanding. Yet... that Muslim wife needs to believe what you believe NOW?

God draws a man or woman unto Himself (John 6:44)..... GOD DOES THAT, He said so. It sounds to be like you are trying to do HIS job!

I'm a 23-year old man, but I still live with my parents, you need to ask my dad for permission to teach me anything. He's a Catholic though, and I'm not.

Yes, I know. My "too young" comment came BEFORE I read this last part, I had already figured out that I was old enough to be your father. You have zeal and knowledge but no wisdom. You need to be discipled but not once a week for an hour... a first century disciple walked with his rabbi for years on a daily basis before he went about his calling. The 12 walked with Yeshua 24/7/365 for 3 years before they went about their commission. Paul with all the schooling at Beit Hillel under his belt... went away for 3 YEARS to Arabia (where we now know the real Mt. Sinai is) and though the Scripture doesn't say what he did... I think he went to get alone with the Spirit for 3 years until he made all the necessary connections and THEN came back and walked in his commission.

So let me end this with this point... there is a church up the end of the road, 500 people attend every week. They do good works, people are growing... but you decide that they are lacking in one subject. Do you walk in, grab the mic from the hand of the pastor, and teach them? No, obviously not. Why? Because of political correctness? No... because it would be rude? No.... the answer is because GOD PLACED THAT PASTOR IN THAT POSITION OF AUTHORITY and you have no authority over that group. I imagine you recognize that authority structure but for some reason... don't see the same God given authority on a smaller scale.

 

[Ken Rank]

@Ken Rank, I reread #18 and #20 and I am not seeing everything about which you seem to have written.

I have no idea what I said that led you write this.

We are indeed to subject ourselves to our secular leaders, because their authority has come from God. If the community has been following Christ with all their hearts, then God will fix all problems with those with authority over us. If the community has not been devoted followers, then we miss some of the blessings God wants to give and instead we get some of what we deserve. (Everything short of eternal condemnation is by the grace of God alone.)

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. (bold mine, Romans 13:1, NASB)

God was mentioned in 18 and 20 and that was my only point to somebody who thinks this thread was not to be about religion. As for Romans 13, brother... if you take the position that it is speaking of secular leaders, then (as a hypothetical) a Hitler type raised up in your country, you are bound to follow him.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

The above is an elder, a pastor... somebody within the structure of God's house, not the White House.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

By your reasoning, if I resisted Hitler, I am resisting GOD? 6 million Jews dead and I am supposed to go along with THAT? No... God wouldn't desire that which is why He said...

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

The God appointed rulers are terrors TO EVIL... he is not a terror to good works. Secular leaders often PROMOTE EVIL... which stands in complete contrast to what is written in the verse.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Who is "he?" An elder, a pastor, a deacon.... somebody raised to do works against evil and never stand against good. Not a secular leader and none of this... as I stated already, gives any wiggle room out of submitting to Hitler. Nothing here said, "let ever soul be subject to the higher powers UNLESS they stand against God." It doesn't say that, nothing in these verses even come close to suggesting that. These are leaders of the body of Christ, called by God... not secular leaders.

 

[Greg J.]

You are taking what I said, "obey your leaders," and transforming it into "obey Hitler and everything he orders like he was God himself." I have not indicated any such thing.