The Magnitude of the End of the Age

[keras]

This thread has diverged from the OP. My post #78 is ignored, despite it telling of great events yet to happen.

Parousia continues to make scathing and supercilious remarks about how everything was done and dusted in ancient times. He chooses to forget that God has allowed a set time for mankind and He is not willing that any should perish. We have just about completed that time and are now nearly at 6000 years since Adam was created.
Plainly, there is coming great things, dramatic events that we should know about and be prepared for. God has told us His plans, to not understand them, is to put yourself in the position of the ungodly peoples.

 

[Goatee]

Where'd you pull that from?

It is. I believe in the preterist view.

Babylon The Great of Revelation   |  Don K. Preston  |  Preterist Archive

 

[dysert]

It is. I believe in the preterist view.

Ok. I was hoping for a Bible reference or something.

 

[Goatee]

Ok. I was hoping for a Bible reference or something.

Babylon The Great of Revelation   |  Don K. Preston  |  Preterist Archive

 

[JacksBratt]

It is acceptable, 100%
Lets examine it.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter is saying 2 things here
1) A Day for God in Heaven is as 1000 years on Earth
AND
2) 1000 years for God in Heaven is as 1 Day on Earth

Both are true, for God is TIMELESS.
God does not have soon, shortly, near. Just as God does not have Far or long time.

God has NO time. Time statements in scripture are given to be understood by how man reckons time, every time, always.



Because of John's statement later on in the passage that you failed to address, of course:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Even if we suppose you are correct about your "swiftness once it begins" theory, John clarifies for us in vs 3. The time for it to begin was "near" as he was writing.

In fact He feels it is such an important point that he Bookends the entire Book with the statement:

Rev. 22:10
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

This passage is especially instructive for us, as it stands in contrast to Daniel who was told to Seal up the prophesy for when he was writing, it was for times far off...

Daniel was writing 500 years before John.
There is no amount of spiritualizing gymnsatics you can whip up that can account for 2500 years being "far away" and "a long time off" but 2000 years being "near", "at hand" and "about to be".



So you just "have a feeling" that the Politics, technology and spirituality of today has eschatological significance, because of your personal, private observances of non biblical events, but have no Biblical eschatological scripture to support it?

Got it.

Basically, you don't have an issue with the fact that these things will take place.

You have an issue with the statement that the apostles and Christ made when they said they would "shortly come to pass" or that they would be sooner than later. That they figured it would happen in their lifetime.

Your issue is with the gospel. It is the same issue as Peter is talking about when he asks.., Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

I understand that. It is a confusing part of the Gospel. We do know that the events are still to come. Unless, you can document any historical events that would indicate that these prophesy's have happened yet?



My view is that none of them have happened yet and that the world stage is prepared and ready, to an extent that we have never seen before.

My view is that there were factors that had to be in place before the events could take place.

There needs to be adequate technology. Adequate weaponry. Adequate world population and anti - biblical attitude. Nations need to be in place, namely Israel. There also needs to be a readiness of the people of the world to be accepting of a cashless, computer based, tracking system of commerce coupled with the electronic and global systems to implement it.

So, unless you can tell me when these events took place already. And, unless you believe that scripture is lying about these events, I will continue with my belief that they are still to come and that it will be very soon.

 

[parousia70]

Ok. I was hoping for a Bible reference or something.

COMPARE THIS:
standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’ (Rev 18:10)

TO THIS:
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Rev 11:8)

 

[parousia70]

Basically, you don't have an issue with the fact that these things will take place.

I do.

You have an issue with the statement that the apostles and Christ made when they said they would "shortly come to pass" or that they would be sooner than later. That they figured it would happen in their lifetime.

I have NO issue with that. I take the same position they did. They are the authority on the matter after all, are they not?
It would appear it is YOU you has the issue with what they said, since you are the one claiming it does not mean what they said in the plain, literal sense... you must apply an elastic, spiritualized, metaphoric coating upon their plain, literal statements to make them fit into your view.
I need do no such thing. I accept it as written.

Your issue is with the gospel. It is the same issue as Peter is talking about when he asks.., Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Again, that would be you, not me.

I understand that. It is a confusing part of the Gospel. We do know that the events are still to come. Unless

you can document any historical events that would indicate that these prophesy's have happened yet?

Lets level the playing field shall we?
Can you live up to the same standard you are asking I live up to?

For Example, King David Defeated Saul.
I'm certain we can BOTH agree this already happened IN THE PAST, yes?

Can you document any historical event's that would indicate it happened the way David describes it here?:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)

I am very interested in your citation from the historical record the evidence of God being seen Bending the Heavens, Riding a Cherub upon the wings of the wind with Dark clouds at His feet, kindling coals with His brightness, smoke billowing from His nostrils, shooting arrows, parting the sea and laying the foundations of the entire earth bare at the time of King Davids Defeat of Saul.

When you can demonstrate from history, record of these physical, visible things happening they way David described them here, then I'll be happy to do the same with any verse you want me to.

There needs to be adequate technology. Adequate weaponry.

Like in the Battle of Gog in Ezekiel?

If you hold that Ezekiel 38-39 are yet future, and to be taken literally, then yes, you are bound to interpret literally the weapons used in the siege:

39: 3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

As seen above, In Ezekiel 39:3-9, we have a clear picture of the weaponry used by Gog in this historical battle.

Bows, arrows, shields, spears, javelins, handstaves and swords

One squadron of F-15's and a dozen "daisy cutters" should be able to wipe out 200,000,000 horsemen with Bows, arrows and Spears in less than 8 hours.

Such a lopsided battle does not lie in our future.
Unless of course you don't take those scriptures "literally"?

 

[iamlamad]

Why wasn't John familiar with the place Jerusalem when he describes it as a wilderness, was not Jerusalem a developed and built up city in his time.

It was a vision.

 

[iamlamad]

Where'd you pull that from?

Just read. John tells us as much. Try for starters, the last verse of chapter 17. Then search Revelation on "great city."

 

[iamlamad]

Babylon is Jerusalem.......

HEY! Agreement!

 

[iamlamad]

Do you mean the way God was right on time here?:

Genesis 7:4
For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”

A day is 1000 years, right?

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is from OUR point of view. One thing you should know about God by now: He is never in a hurry!

We DO take such verses at face value...but we understand His timing is not our timing. It has been nearly 2000 years since Christ came. But the bible calls those "the last days." Humans might call the last 2 or 3 or perhaps a few just before He comes as seen in Rev. 9 as "the last days."

 

[parousia70]

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is from OUR point of view. One thing you should know about God by now: He is never in a hurry!

Perhaps, but as in the example of Noah, we know that when God says he's going to do something in "seven days", that He's not going to wait 7000 years to do it.

We DO take such verses at face value...but we understand His timing is not our timing.

See my response above. If Noah took the position you do, he wouldn't have bothered building the ark.

It has been nearly 2000 years since Christ came. But the bible calls those "the last days."

Rather, the Bible calls the final generation of the Mosaic covenant "the last days" and calls the Gospel age "everlasting".

 

[Achilles6129]

That seems to be selective reasoning. He is talking about the characteristics of people in the last days. Can you name a time that those in the world did not act in this manner? But in the final days, we see a Laodecian spirit infiltrate oir churches. We divorce like those in the world, we want what the world values, and yet "That can't be talking about us, right?"

It can.... and sadly, is.

Blessings,

Gideon
.

Hi Gideon,

I think it's quite possible that he's talking about it being more prevalent and acceptable than it was before.

 

[Achilles6129]

Did you notice that God will send angels with His gospel to every human in their own language? (Rev. 14)

Interesting passage. Do you believe that this angel appears physically, or is it a spiritual thing that's invisible?

 

[Achilles6129]

It is acceptable, 100%
Lets examine it.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter is saying 2 things here
1) A Day for God in Heaven is as 1000 years on Earth
AND
2) 1000 years for God in Heaven is as 1 Day on Earth

Both are true, for God is TIMELESS.
God does not have soon, shortly, near. Just as God does not have Far or long time.

God has NO time. Time statements in scripture are given to be understood by how man reckons time, every time, always.

So you believe that God is timeless? So then how did the Son enter into time, if God is timeless?

Because of John's statement later on in the passage that you failed to address, of course:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Even if we suppose you are correct about your "swiftness once it begins" theory, John clarifies for us in vs 3. The time for it to begin was "near" as he was writing.

In fact He feels it is such an important point that he Bookends the entire Book with the statement:

Rev. 22:10
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

This passage is especially instructive for us, as it stands in contrast to Daniel who was told to Seal up the prophesy for when he was writing, it was for times far off...

Daniel was writing 500 years before John.
There is no amount of spiritualizing gymnsatics you can whip up that can account for 2500 years being "far away" and "a long time off" but 2000 years being "near", "at hand" and "about to be".

Actually, there's something that you've missed:

"Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;
Listen, the day of the Lord!
[l]In it the warrior cries out bitterly." Zeph. 1:14 (NASB)

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of [h]decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." Joel 3:14 (NASB)

"6 For thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Once more [h]in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land." Hag. 2:6 (NASB)

John's statement in Revelation is similar to statements the OT prophets made regarding the day of the LORD. They said it was soon, probably because time runs differently for the Spirit of God than it does for a natural human being.

 

[Achilles6129]

COMPARE THIS:
standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’ (Rev 18:10)

TO THIS:
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Rev 11:8)

So because they're both called a great city, they have to be the same thing? So do you believe that God will totally destroy Jerusalem, since God will totally destroy Babylon? To totally destroy Jerusalem would be to violate OT prophecy.

 

[Achilles6129]

This thread has diverged from the OP. My post #78 is ignored, despite it telling of great events yet to happen.

Your post #78 was interesting. What in it particularly did you want to discuss?

 

[parousia70]

So you believe that God is timeless? So then how did the Son enter into time, if God is timeless?

God Created Time and is not bound by it's constraints.
He can enter into it and out of it at will.

Actually, there's something that you've missed:

"Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;
Listen, the day of the Lord!
[l]In it the warrior cries out bitterly." Zeph. 1:14 (NASB)

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of [h]decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." Joel 3:14 (NASB)

"6 For thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Once more [h]in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land." Hag. 2:6 (NASB)

John's statement in Revelation is similar to statements the OT prophets made regarding the day of the LORD. They said it was soon, probably because time runs differently for the Spirit of God than it does for a natural human being.

And what you have missed is that there have been several "day of the Lord" events in History.
Zephaniah 1 is about the then near coming Judgement of God against 6th Century BC Jerusalem, and indeed came to pass soon after Zephaniah gave the warning to them.

Haggai 2:6-7 was originally for Zerubabbel and took place about 4 years (near) after the utterance:

Haggai 2:21-23
Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah, saying, 'I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and their riders, and the horses and their riders will go down, everyone by the sword of another.' On that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, My servant,' declares the LORD, 'and I will make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you

For all who may have forgotten the story...Within only four years ("in a little while") after the prophecy in Hag. 2:6-9; 21-23 was given, God overthrew all the nations, (i.e., He "shook the heavens, the earth, the sea and the dry land") and the desire (or wealth) of all nations came, and the earthly temple was filled with glory (with gold, silver, etc.). (Compare Haggai 1:15; 2:10 and Ezra 6:15)

This all took place when Darius King of Persia overturned Israel's enemies, who for years had been preventing the rebuilding of God's house. Darius decreed, "May God ...overthrow any king or people who lifts a hand to change this decree or to destroy this temple in Jerusalem." (Ezra 6:11-12) Darius forced Israel's enemies themselves to pay the full cost of the rebuilding, as well as the full cost of all the daily, priestly services. (Ezra 6:8-10)

The power of Israel's enemies was broken. They had tried to turn the king against Israel, (Ezra 5) but God turned their own stratagems against them. He made them subservient to His people, taking their own wealth for the building of His glorious, earthly house. God had thus "moved heaven and earth" to keep the covenant that He had made with His people through Moses. (Ezra 6:18; Hag. 2:5).

Joel 3 is about the return of the Jews from Babylonian Captivity, a NEAR "Day of the Lord" event at that time as well.

Anything else?

 

[The Times]

Though Jesus made it a focal point of no return when the abomination that maketh desolate is setup.

 

[JacksBratt]

I do.

So you are saying that they will not take place?

I have NO issue with that. I take the same position they did. They are the authority on the matter after all, are they not?

No, Even the Son did not know, only the Father. Christ knew the signs but He did not know the date. Not in His earthly time here anyway.

That they were not an authority on this is obvious with Peter's question.

It would appear it is YOU you has the issue with what they said, since you are the one claiming it does not mean what they said in the plain, literal sense... you must apply an elastic, spiritualized, metaphoric coating upon their plain, literal statements to make them fit into your view.

I have to apply nothing. Peter was asking why the promise had not come. His explanation is simple. God is not limited by time as we are. A short time to God is like a thousand years. Simple.

I have no issue with the time frame. They were simply instructed to be always ready.
I have no issue with the gospel either.

Lets level the playing field shall we?
Can you live up to the same standard you are asking I live up to?

For Example, King David Defeated Saul.
I'm certain we can BOTH agree this already happened IN THE PAST, yes?

Can you document any historical event's that would indicate it happened the way David describes it here?:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)

I am very interested in your citation from the historical record the evidence of God being seen Bending the Heavens, Riding a Cherub upon the wings of the wind with Dark clouds at His feet, kindling coals with His brightness, smoke billowing from His nostrils, shooting arrows, parting the sea and laying the foundations of the entire earth bare at the time of King Davids Defeat of Saul.

So, you want to base history on a song? It thought you wanted to level the playing field.

You do realize that this is a song, right?

The book of revelations is not about a song. It is reality.

Can you show me any historical evidence, other than the Bible, that the sun and moon stopped in the sky, and that later, it went backward? No, but it did happen and it is totally in the possible abilities of God.

If any of the events, that are future prophesies, in the book of revelations, that were revealed by Christ to John, had of happened before today, they would of happened less than 2000 years ago and there would be no doubt that we would have record of it today.

These events are going to change the face of the earth, the population of mankind and the very heavenly bodies of stars and planets.

They have not happened yet and could not of happened yet.

When you can demonstrate from history, record of these physical, visible things happening they way David described them here, then I'll be happy to do the same with any verse you want me to.

Again, you do know it's a song right? Not reality?

Like in the Battle of Gog in Ezekiel?

If you hold that Ezekiel 38-39 are yet future, and to be taken literally, then yes, you are bound to interpret literally the weapons used in the siege:

39: 3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

As seen above, In Ezekiel 39:3-9, we have a clear picture of the weaponry used by Gog in this historical battle.

Bows, arrows, shields, spears, javelins, handstaves and swords

One squadron of F-15's and a dozen "daisy cutters" should be able to wipe out 200,000,000 horsemen with Bows, arrows and Spears in less than 8 hours.

Such a lopsided battle does not lie in our future.
Unless of course you don't take those scriptures "literally"?

Yes that is odd. I wonder why Ezekiel didn't mention the F-15's with "daisy Cutters".

Maybe due to the fact that he had no words to describe them?

Anyway. I have read enough, in researching responses to your views, to understand and reinforce my belief that we are indeed close, these events are real and the scriptures clearly indicate it...... if you take the time to study them along with current events.