The Magnitude of the End of the Age

[iamlamad]

Actually I think that passage is referring to the two witnesses in Rev. 11.

Did you notice that God will send angels with His gospel to every human in their own language? (Rev. 14)

 

[parousia70]

Well, there are two explanations.
1/ Time to God is different than time to us, as explained here:

II Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
...8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2/ The term "shortly come to pass" is referring to the fact that once the events start, they will happen in rapid succession.

So your answer is that you in fact DO NOT take those scriptures at plain face value, you apply an elastic, metaprhoric/spiritualization to them.

Got it.

Either way, it is obvious that the events have not yet occurred and that the technology and world political, military, economical and spiritual stage is set.

Is there a specific scripture you are referring to, or just throwing out a statement without any basis.

 

[parousia70]

Is there a specific scripture that you are referring to, or just throwing out a statement without any basis.

Sure. Absolutely.

You said:
The seals are about to be opened.

Do you mean the same thing the apostles meant in these passages?

Acts 17:31
because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

Acts 24:15
having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

Acts 24:25
and he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, and the judgment that is about to be,

2 Timothy 4:1
I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign --

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

1 Peter 5:1
Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker,

Revelation 3:10
Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

I'll ask again.
Do you meant the same thing they did, or do you mean something different when you say it?

 

[parousia70]

It is only "one day." What is your rush? "After two days" it will be time.
God will be right on time!

Do you mean the way God was right on time here?:

Genesis 7:4
For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”

A day is 1000 years, right?

 

[JacksBratt]

So your answer is that you in fact DO NOT take those scriptures at plain face value, you apply an elastic, metaprhoric/spiritualization to them.

Got it.

Because we should not take what Peter said as truth. We should not take Peters explanation as inspired by God and acceptable.

We should not take the term to mean that they will happen in a short period of time once they start either... because.....???

Is there a specific scripture you are referring to, or just throwing out a statement without any basis.

When I asked you to state a specific scripture, it was due to the fact that you were asking me to comment on things that were stated by the apostles.


I, on the other hand have only made a statement based on my observations of what has historically occurred.

There is no specific scripture to refer to .

 

[parousia70]

Because we should not take what Peter said as truth. We should not take Peters explanation as inspired by God and acceptable.

It is acceptable, 100%
Lets examine it.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter is saying 2 things here
1) A Day for God in Heaven is as 1000 years on Earth
AND
2) 1000 years for God in Heaven is as 1 Day on Earth

Both are true, for God is TIMELESS.
God does not have soon, shortly, near. Just as God does not have Far or long time.

God has NO time. Time statements in scripture are given to be understood by how man reckons time, every time, always.

We should not take the term to mean that they will happen in a short period of time once they start either... because.....???

Because of John's statement later on in the passage that you failed to address, of course:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Even if we suppose you are correct about your "swiftness once it begins" theory, John clarifies for us in vs 3. The time for it to begin was "near" as he was writing.

In fact He feels it is such an important point that he Bookends the entire Book with the statement:

Rev. 22:10
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

This passage is especially instructive for us, as it stands in contrast to Daniel who was told to Seal up the prophesy for when he was writing, it was for times far off...

Daniel was writing 500 years before John.
There is no amount of spiritualizing gymnsatics you can whip up that can account for 2500 years being "far away" and "a long time off" but 2000 years being "near", "at hand" and "about to be".

I, on the other hand have only made a statement based on my observations of what has historically occurred.

There is no specific scripture to refer to .

So you just "have a feeling" that the Politics, technology and spirituality of today has eschatological significance, because of your personal, private observances of non biblical events, but have no Biblical eschatological scripture to support it?

Got it.

 

[dysert]

INTERPRETATION!

Try not to read some scripture literally! There is more to it than face value!

Remember, it was written in a time when these things were written in a way that those living at that time could understand. People should not read it with a 'modern' eye!

Try to read Scripture more literally! You may learn some spiritual truths.

 

[Goatee]

Try to read Scripture more literally! You may learn some spiritual truths.

Not 'all' scripture can be read literally my friend.

 

[dysert]

Not 'all' scripture can be read literally my friend.

Thanks for the reminder ;-)

 

[parousia70]

Try to read Scripture more literally! You may learn some spiritual truths.

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Please provide the Literal interpretation of this passage for us.
1 Literal Lamb?
7 Literal Horns?
7 Literal Eyes?

 

[dysert]

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Please provide the Literal interpretation of this passage for us.
1 Literal Lamb?
7 Literal Horns?
7 Literal Eyes?

I really didn't want to get into a spitting contest about this. Of course there is metaphor, simile, and symbology. The symbology in Revelation is defined for us in Scripture, though, so when it's there you don't have to guess what it means.

The Lamb is the Lamb of God (metaphor). The horns are described in Rev. 17:12. And the verse you quoted says the eyes "are the seven Spirits of God".

No, I don't think Jesus is a literal door or that nonsense. What I am saying is that if you assume literal *first* and then look for the definitions of the symbols given in Scripture it all makes perfect sense.

 

[parousia70]

What I am saying is that if you assume literal *first* and then look for the definitions of the symbols given in Scripture it all makes perfect sense.

But where does scripture teach you to "assume literal first"?

Doesn't it make more sense to assume nothing first, and simply let scripture speak the way the author intended?

Why on earth would you approach scripture with any preconceived bias "first"?

 

[dysert]

But where does scripture teach you to "assume literal first"?

Doesn't it make more sense to assume nothing first, and simply let scripture speak the way the author intended?

Why on earth would you approach scripture with any preconceived bias "first"?

I don't think Scripture tells us to assume literal first. However, given that we'll never be able to approach it without a bias of some sort, being biased towards a literal interpretation makes more sense to me because the words had to mean something and make sense to the original readers. So, using Occam's razor, I follow suit.

Otoh, if you assume symbolic first, you end up with thousands of "interpretations" based on nothing but everyone's imagination.

 

[parousia70]

I don't think Scripture tells us to assume literal first. However, given that we'll never be able to approach it without a bias of some sort, being biased towards a literal interpretation makes more sense to me because the words had to mean something and make sense to the original readers. So, using Occam's razor, I follow suit.

I think we may be saying the same thing....
If we agree that the "Literal" interpretation of any given passage is to be understood as whatever interpretation that the author intended, then I agree.

I also wholeheartedly agree that all scripture must have PRIMARY meaning and application to the original receivers, and until we uncover what that meaning and application was FOR THEM, we will never be able to accurately uncover ANY meaning and application for us today.

Otoh, if you assume symbolic first, you end up with thousands of "interpretations" based on nothing but everyone's imagination.

YES!
Like ending up with 2000 years = Near, at hand and about to take place!

 

[dysert]

I think we may be saying the same thing....
If we agree that the "Literal" interpretation of any given passage is to be understood as whatever interpretation that the author intended, then I agree.

We do agree. And you put it quite well.

 

[iamlamad]

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Please provide the Literal interpretation of this passage for us.
1 Literal Lamb?
7 Literal Horns?
7 Literal Eyes?

If we allow a beginning reader to read, and then ask him or her what they think it means, my guess is, much of the time they will have the Author's intent. However, on a verse like this, it would take someone a little older that knows Jesus was previously referred to as a "lamb." We don't even have to wonder about the seven horns and seven eyes for John tells us the meaning.
Since we already have John 14 and John 16, about the Holy Spirit, knowing that Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended, then "sent out into all the earth" is also easy to understand.

However, I have found that many who read this part of the verse really do not believe what it is telling them: that this is a picture of Jesus ascending back into heaven, right after telling Mary not to touch Him.

 

[The Times]

"Mystery Babylon" refers to the city of Jerusalem during the time the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the ENTIRE WORLD from their headquarters city: Jerusalem!

It will be related to Babylon by way of worshiping false gods.

Why wasn't John familiar with the place Jerusalem when he describes it as a wilderness, was not Jerusalem a developed and built up city in his time.

 

[dysert]

"Mystery Babylon" refers to the city of Jerusalem during the time the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the ENTIRE WORLD from their headquarters city: Jerusalem!

It will be related to Babylon by way of worshiping false gods.

I disagree that Mystery Babylon refers to Jerusalem. It either refers to the literal city of Babylon (during the tribulation) or the ungodly world system. I'm not sure which, but it certainly isn't Jerusalem.

 

[Goatee]

Babylon is Jerusalem.......

 

[dysert]

Babylon is Jerusalem.......

Where'd you pull that from?