LDS More False Doctrine Right There in LDS Scripture!

[Jane_Doe]

(I'm focusing here on the questions we've not addressed 20 times)

What were the teachings at the time and what did they claim was the eay to salvation?
Difficult to know, looking at some of the congregations and preachers at the time it is unlikly that they had different views on salvation

What difference would full immersion or sprinkling have made to Smith, he could not have been baptised as he did not know if he was saved. Why did he not read the word on baptism or salvation, this is what everyone else would do right?

There are big differences in regards to views on salvation between different Christian faiths. This is simply a statement of fact. For example, you imply here that you believe only a saved person can be baptized. Other faiths believe that baptism is required for a person desiring salvation. Others it has nothing to do with that person's wishes/embracing Christ. Some faiths view salvation as a one time thing (did and done), others a lifelong journey.

You say he was wondering, well he should have been diligently studying the Word, bringing questions reading commentaries. Is this how we understand doctrine by reading one verse out of context or do we study the bible and compare scripture with scripture?

He addresses this question directly himself: "For the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible." (Joseph Smith—History 1)

You don't do things like this and go against Gods word, Decieve people and claim things no one can prove!

If you want proof, ask God yourself.

 

[DJItalianspur]

He probably did just that;

Matt 28
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 22:16
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1Peter 3
God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us ...

After reading all that he could have a very strong feeling there was a need for him to be baptized.



aaaa he was 14 years old living in the country side of New York with only a few days of formal schooling, do you really think he had access to commentaries? Besides James told him to ask God!

There is quote about commentaries I like but can't remember who said it;

"I would rather drink from the fresh spring than down stream after the cows have waded through it"



James also said in chapter 4
"3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

John also warned us to try the spirits and one way to see if a man was teaching falsely was to see if he loved his brother "21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also." thus anyone who teaches hate can not be of God.

If someone has to pray to know if he should join a hate filled organization I would say he's along way from knowing what is in the Bible and the Spirit.




His family had regular prayers both morning and night along with scripture reading. He was studying the Bible when he read that passage.

Richard Bushmen who wrote Rough Stone Rolling a bio on Joseph said that Joseph Sr. was " spiritually adrift" he had rejected Evangelicalism and could not commit to any organised religion. Sounds like a lot of people today. His mother and sisters had been baptized by the Presbyterian Church so you can see religion and God played a big roll in their family.




Do you not believe that God will answer your prayers?
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Do you lack the faith that it is possible for the Holy Spirit to teach you

Matt 7
7 ¶Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

John 16
"13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What is it about asking God to help you find truth you find so frighting?

Point 1 he didn't know the Lord, he would have been interviewed for baptism if he did and probably membership, but there is no records of this. What Sunday school did his family encourage him to attend? If he had been to a church let's say for example western prespertarian church, the pastor being Jesse Townsend I think he would have understood the need to seek Christ and then baptism. That church would have had a prayer meeting, I doubt they would have encouraged seekers to go into the woods on their own....

James told smith to ask God, or did James tell believers (this would not include Smith) to seek wisdom during persecution? The letter is addressed to Christians!

Point 3 about friendship with the world, how did Smith like his father get to a master mason if he was not friends with the world?
How do the lds treat members when they leave and join Christian churches, with love?

Point 4 Smith snr and being spiritually adrift. Well a master mason - yes you could say spiritually adrift. Do you think Smith being a master mason would count as spiritually adrift?

Point 5 these scriptures are about seeking salvation (apart from James 1) Smith didn't find salvation he did find the King James Bible and two other books which he used to make the BoM. How many people who genuinely seek salvation from God find it and are converted? I would say all. How many are guided into the woods and later find folders plates which disappear? I would say none

But why do think think I have not asked God for wisdom or why would I or any Christian be scared to ask God. Many people have asked God about the BoM. Many have tried to find reference to the BoM in scripture. Many have tried to see how Smith fulfilled any part of prophecy or met the criteria of a prophet. Many are clear the Smith was no prophet, but a confused many that could not stop lie Yong and decieving people.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You say he was wondering, well he should have been diligently studying the Word, bringing questions reading commentaries.

I guess I’m still puzzled, Joseph did not take this out of context. Although it’s about asking for wisdom or knowledge in times of trouble do you not think God can guide whenever you need it?

I don’t think anyone ever made the argument you are making until Joseph started quoting it and then all of a sudden it has to mean not to seek guidance’s from God.

The following is from John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible written in the early 1700’s

If any of you lack wisdom
….Saints often want wisdom to consider God as the author of them, and not look upon them as matters of chance, or impute them merely to second causes; but to regard them as coming from the hand of God, and as his hand upon them, as Job did; ….Moreover, this may be applied to all other cases, in which wisdom is wanted; men want wisdom to conduct them in the common affairs of life, and especially the people of God; ….Saints have need of wisdom in things spiritual; they want more grace, which is the truest wisdom, and a larger knowledge of the Gospel, which is the wisdom of God, the hidden wisdom of God; and they lack wisdom to know how to walk towards them that are without, and towards them that are within, so as becomes the Gospel of Christ: and as this is more or less the case of everyone

let him ask of God
wisdom; of God the Father, who is the only wise God, who has abounded in creation, in providence, and, above all, in redemption and grace, in all wisdom and prudence; and of his Son Jesus Christ, who is the wisdom of God, and has all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge in him; and of the Spirit of God, who is a Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ, and all divine things:

that giveth to all men liberally;
God is the giver of all good things, in nature, providence, and grace; every good and perfect gift comes from him, and therefore he, and he only, should be applied unto: and he gives to "all men" the bounties of his providence; and to all that ask, and call upon him in sincerity, the riches of his grace; even to Jews and Gentiles, high and low, rich and poor, greater or lesser sinners; all which he gives "liberally", readily, and at once, freely and cheerfully, and largely and abundantly; not grudgingly, sparingly, and with a strait hand, but with an open one, and in a very extensive manner.

He doesn’t seem to agree with you

I turned to Barclay’s commentary and found this;
“There is a close connection between this passage and what has gone before. James has just told his readers that, if they use all the testing experiences of life in the right way, they will emerge from them with that unswerving constancy which is the basis of all the virtues. But immediately the question arises, "Where can I find the wisdom and the understanding to use these testing experiences in the right way?" James' answer is, "If a man feels that he has not the wisdom to use aright the experiences of this life--and no man in himself possesses that wisdom--let him ask it from God."

Joseph was young man who has no real life experiences but has faith and came to the point of wanting to follow Jesus the right way, he lacks the wisdom to choose. He has a Methodist minister saying follow me, a Baptist saying come this way, his mother joining the Presbyterians and his father rejecting organized religion. Could anyone be in more need of wisdom?

Barclay goes on;
Ropes defines this Christian wisdom as "the supreme and divine quality of the soul whereby man knows and practises righteousness."

That was what Joseph was searching for. In his earliest description of his first vision (1832) he wrote

“At about the age of twelve years my mind became seriously impressed with regard to the all important concerns for the well fare of my immortal Soul which led me to searching the scriptures believing as I was taught, that they contained the word of God thus applying myself to them….my mind (had) become exceedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins ” (I corrected his spelling)

He goes on to say that he listened to and watched the different preachers and found them wanting in their practice of Christian values. He also felt what they were teaching was not according to the New Testament, one has to wonder if his father’s rejection of Evangelicalism didn’t influence those feelings.

In any case he was a young man who lack the wisdom to decide and he trusted the Bible when it says “ If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God…”

Now you are saying No, don't trust the Bible and don't ask God. I find that very puzzling.

 

[DJItalianspur]

(I'm focusing here on the questions we've not addressed 20 times)

There are big differences in regards to views on salvation between different Christian faiths. This is simply a statement of fact. For example, you imply here that you believe only a saved person can be baptized. Other faiths believe that baptism is required for a person desiring salvation. Others it has nothing to do with that person's wishes/embracing Christ. Some faiths view salvation as a one time thing (did and done), others a lifelong journey.

He addresses this question directly himself: "For the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible." (Joseph Smith—History 1)

If you want proof, ask God yourself.

Which passage did the teachers of religion differ on? Smith does not name it. But why would he, he was looking for a reason to disappear into the woods alone when no one would be able to witness anything.

Just out of interest if I tell you that I slipped into the woods last night after praying James 1:5 out of context and God appeared to me would you believe me?
What if I was a master mason and wanted to marry many wives, then would you believe me.
How about if I prophecy that a government one may lose an election somewhere, does that do it?

You see why us Christians use the bible to test modern day prophets?

 

[withwonderingawe]

That church would have had a prayer meeting, I doubt they would have encouraged seekers to go into the woods on their own....

And perhaps that's the problem. James says he'll give to all men and not just a preacher. Prayer meetings which have calls to the alters are not Biblical. When Jesus sought guidance of the Spirit he went into the wilderness for forty days.

Jesus taught
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." Matthew 6:6

James told smith to ask God, or did James tell believers (this would not include Smith)

Who are you to judge another's heart, Jesus alone is judge!

But wouldn't God reach out to the unbeliever searching, does he only answer the prayers of the believer? That's a mighty strange god.

how did Smith like his father get to a master mason if he was not friends with the world?

I don't think he was a master mason that takes along time to achieve and he was only in it for a short period of time. Are you saying that a Christian man like George Washington was not Christian enough for you? Your evil feelings about Masons is your own problem, lots of good Christian people have been Masons.

But why do think think I have not asked God for wisdom or why would I or any Christian be scared to ask God. Many people have asked God about the BoM. Many have tried to find reference to the BoM in scripture. Many have tried to see how Smith fulfilled any part of prophecy or met the criteria of a prophet. Many are clear the Smith was no prophet, but a confused many that could not stop lie Yong and decieving people.

Many people listened to Jesus and rejected him, they saw miracles and they said he was of Beelzebub.

Mark 4
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Do you have the ears to hear?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Which passage did the teachers of religion differ on?

Again, different denotations differ drastically on their interpretation of the Bible. See post 301 for some examples, check on the Christian debate forums here for oodles more examples.

Just out of interest if I tell you that I slipped into the woods last night after praying James 1:5 out of context and God appeared to me would you believe me?
What if I was a master mason and wanted to marry many wives, then would you believe me.

You're trying to defeat an arguement no one is making (that we should believe anyone just because they said they saw God). Good luck with that.

 

[Rescued One]

Prayer meetings which have calls to the alters are not Biblical. When Jesus sought guidance of the Spirit he went into the wilderness for forty days.

Did Mormons stop praying in public? That's hard to imagine.

Jesus taught
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." Matthew 6:6

Silent prayers are heard by God even if we're riding the subway.

Who are you to judge another's heart, Jesus alone is judge!

Are you able to judge George Washington's heart? Something has made you determine that even though he was an apostate, he was a Christian. How do you know that?

But wouldn't God reach out to the unbeliever searching, does he only answer the prayers of the believer? That's a mighty strange god.

Are you judging God?

Mark 4
9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Do you have the ears to hear?

We can't give ourselves ears to hear.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Unbelievers don't have the Spirit and aren't searching for God. The person who prays to the true God was given faith. Without faith he has no reason to pray.

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[DJItalianspur]

I guess I’m still puzzled, Joseph did not take this out of context. Although it’s about asking for wisdom or knowledge in times of trouble do you not think God can guide whenever you need it?

I don’t think anyone ever made the argument you are making until Joseph started quoting it and then all of a sudden it has to mean not to seek guidance’s from God.

The following is from John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible written in the early 1700’s

If any of you lack wisdom
….Saints often want wisdom to consider God as the author of them, and not look upon them as matters of chance, or impute them merely to second causes; but to regard them as coming from the hand of God, and as his hand upon them, as Job did; ….Moreover, this may be applied to all other cases, in which wisdom is wanted; men want wisdom to conduct them in the common affairs of life, and especially the people of God; ….Saints have need of wisdom in things spiritual; they want more grace, which is the truest wisdom, and a larger knowledge of the Gospel, which is the wisdom of God, the hidden wisdom of God; and they lack wisdom to know how to walk towards them that are without, and towards them that are within, so as becomes the Gospel of Christ: and as this is more or less the case of everyone

let him ask of God
wisdom; of God the Father, who is the only wise God, who has abounded in creation, in providence, and, above all, in redemption and grace, in all wisdom and prudence; and of his Son Jesus Christ, who is the wisdom of God, and has all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge in him; and of the Spirit of God, who is a Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ, and all divine things:

that giveth to all men liberally;
God is the giver of all good things, in nature, providence, and grace; every good and perfect gift comes from him, and therefore he, and he only, should be applied unto: and he gives to "all men" the bounties of his providence; and to all that ask, and call upon him in sincerity, the riches of his grace; even to Jews and Gentiles, high and low, rich and poor, greater or lesser sinners; all which he gives "liberally", readily, and at once, freely and cheerfully, and largely and abundantly; not grudgingly, sparingly, and with a strait hand, but with an open one, and in a very extensive manner.

He doesn’t seem to agree with you

I turned to Barclay’s commentary and found this;
“There is a close connection between this passage and what has gone before. James has just told his readers that, if they use all the testing experiences of life in the right way, they will emerge from them with that unswerving constancy which is the basis of all the virtues. But immediately the question arises, "Where can I find the wisdom and the understanding to use these testing experiences in the right way?" James' answer is, "If a man feels that he has not the wisdom to use aright the experiences of this life--and no man in himself possesses that wisdom--let him ask it from God."

Joseph was young man who has no real life experiences but has faith and came to the point of wanting to follow Jesus the right way, he lacks the wisdom to choose. He has a Methodist minister saying follow me, a Baptist saying come this way, his mother joining the Presbyterians and his father rejecting organized religion. Could anyone be in more need of wisdom?

Barclay goes on;
Ropes defines this Christian wisdom as "the supreme and divine quality of the soul whereby man knows and practises righteousness."

That was what Joseph was searching for. In his earliest description of his first vision (1832) he wrote

“At about the age of twelve years my mind became seriously impressed with regard to the all important concerns for the well fare of my immortal Soul which led me to searching the scriptures believing as I was taught, that they contained the word of God thus applying myself to them….my mind (had) become exceedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins ” (I corrected his spelling)

He goes on to say that he listened to and watched the different preachers and found them wanting in their practice of Christian values. He also felt what they were teaching was not according to the New Testament, one has to wonder if his father’s rejection of Evangelicalism didn’t influence those feelings.

In any case he was a young man who lack the wisdom to decide and he trusted the Bible when it says “ If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God…”

Now you are saying No, don't trust the Bible and don't ask God. I find that very puzzling.

Well what my point is:
The primary application is asking for wisdom during persecution.
Second point and Gills commentary which you quoted pick this up in the first word 'saints' I.e born again believers (we are not sure Smith was a believer, he was confused according to his testimony as what the churches taught on salvation.....)
Now lastly the application for the believer to ask for general wisdom in line with the word of God can be applied, but this does not show the link to the BoM any more than the Koran or the new world translation. It does not provide proof objectively of the BoM or smith.

I am not sure what level of understanding smith would have had in regards to the bible, on one yes he was young, his dad was not the best influence, he may have been busy....
But people at the same time people were very 'religious' and the bible was well taught, Smiths family would have been influenced by that. Historically it is not clear.

Just a note on Barclay some of the material in his commentarys are ok technically, but doctrinally I do not think his position is Christian. Many people for that reason do not use his commentary and are quite sceptical of them. Gill on the other hand is well respected by Christians (tried and trusted) and is very sound.

 

[DJItalianspur]

And perhaps that's the problem. James says he'll give to all men and not just a preacher. Prayer meetings which have calls to the alters are not Biblical. When Jesus sought guidance of the Spirit he went into the wilderness for forty days.

Jesus taught
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." Matthew 6:6



Who are you to judge another's heart, Jesus alone is judge!

But wouldn't God reach out to the unbeliever searching, does he only answer the prayers of the believer? That's a mighty strange god.



I don't think he was a master mason that takes along time to achieve and he was only in it for a short period of time. Are you saying that a Christian man like George Washington was not Christian enough for you? Your evil feelings about Masons is your own problem, lots of good Christian people have been Masons.



Many people listened to Jesus and rejected him, they saw miracles and they said he was of Beelzebub.

Mark 4
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Do you have the ears to hear?

I think I have made an assumption with free mason, I assumed that you (Mormons) would know about masons.
So I looked into the practices some more to show you well why I think masons are clearly not Christians.
There is a very strong link to Mormons maybe 1,500 of the early Mormons were masons (I think this is an lds source -correct me if I am wrong)
What is interesting is the very common similarities and beliefs. There are websites (mostly anti Mormon) that list the practices in both temples and the view on Gods of both organisations.

George Washington has Godly principles and was a strong leader, but a Christian? Not according to what he said.

I don't believe any free mason is a Christian.

But maybe before we look further at this (if we look further) so I don't jump to any conclusions or just assume what the anti Mormon websites say, can you let me let me know if the free mason link to Mormons is true? Still exists today? Do you think this is correct? Does lds have an official position? With out getting too personal are a free mason or Tempted to join?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Well what my point is:
The primary application is asking for wisdom during persecution.

And I have repeatedly asked you do you believe a person has to be persecuted before they can approach their Father in prayer. You continual silence on this point suggests that you do not believe that to be the case.

Second point and Gills commentary which you quoted pick this up in the first word 'saints' I.e born again believers (we are not sure Smith was a believer, he was confused according to his testimony as what the churches taught on salvation.....)

"No True Scotsman" argument you are attempting here is a logical fallacy and invalid for evidence in rational discussions.

Now lastly the application for the believer to ask for general wisdom in line with the word of God can be applied, but this does not show the link to the BoM any more than the Koran or the new world translation. It does not provide proof objectively of the BoM or smith.

These sentences don't even make sense.

I think I have made an assumption with free mason, I assumed that you (Mormons) would know about masons.
So I looked into the practices some more to show you well why I think masons are clearly not Christians.

First you would have to establish that Masons have to be of any certain religious persuasion before you can describe it as "not Christian".

I don't believe any free mason is a Christian.

Are you really the person who can determine that? Or can only God judge truly what's in the heart of any single person, let alone of every heart of any entire group.

But maybe before we look further at this (if we look further) so I don't jump to any conclusions or just assume what the anti Mormon websites say, can you let me let me know if the free mason link to Mormons is true? Still exists today? Do you think this is correct? Does lds have an official position? With out getting too personal are a free mason or Tempted to join?

There is an entire thread on this going right now.

Note: there is a common anti-anything tactic of just lobbing tons of accusations until the accuser hopefully find one that sticks. Is that your tactic here?

 

[withwonderingawe]

I am not sure what level of understanding smith would have had in regards to the bible,

I don't know that anyone has a full understanding or appreciation of the atonement "the breadth, and length, and depth, and height".

Just a note on Barclay some of the material in his commentarys are ok technically, but doctrinally I do not think his position is Christian.

I have a problem with judging another person's faith unless they come right out and say Jesus was not God but only a man, someone who would deny the Father Son relationship. The Rev John Spong would be a could example.

With Barclay I understand a little better because I too reject the Trinity, I found this quote;
"We know that Scripture shows Jesus to be “God” in nature (John 1:1), and John the apostle confessed Him, “My Lord and my God” (20:28). But Barclay believed in a form of Adoptionism. He wrote, “Jesus Christ as a human being who had been taken up into divinity. . . . Jesus was a man into whom God came." So I assume he had a form of the Father Son relationship but what he lacked is an understanding of a pre-existence, that Jesus was Yahweh.

 

[DJItalianspur]

And I have repeatedly asked you do you believe a person has to be persecuted before they can approach their Father in prayer. You continual silence on this point suggests that you do not believe that to be the case.

"No True Scotsman" argument you are attempting here is a logical fallacy and invalid for evidence in rational discussions.

These sentences don't even make sense.

First you would have to establish that Masons have to be of any certain religious persuasion before you can describe it as "not Christian".

Are you really the person who can determine that? Or can only God judge truly what's in the heart of any single person, let alone of every heart of any entire group.

There is an entire thread on this going right now.

Note: there is a common anti-anything tactic of just lobbing tons of accusations until the accuser hopefully find one that sticks. Is that your tactic here?

I don't think you understand my point, if smith was not a Christian at 12 years old when he supposedly prayed James 1:5 then why did he not find true wisdom, i. e. Christ his saviour? Surely one must have his sin forgiven and find the true God, before he asks for wisdom right? I would prefer to be ignorant and saved rather than wise and not saved. Or was smith a Christian at the time?

Jane maybe most of my posts do not make sense to you. Anything anti Mormon may not make sense to you. In the last 300 years several organisations have sprang up, all claiming new prophets, all claiming to be the true way, all claiming the church is in apostasy and all from North America. All claiming the same things! For many anything that is not inline with their organisation does not make sense, but remember this is a Christian forum so we can ask christain questions regarding the facts of these organisations including the history and the fruit In order to establish What God says about them in his word!

'Well masons are Christians' is based only on my understanding, but if only God can judge then we should not really give our opinions or views on anyone or anything, so not much point posting anything on these forums right?
What do think about this, Sorry I forgot 'we can't judge'....

Jane maybe I can encourage you to read the bible, read passages of scripture, not just isolation. The one true God of the bible is greater and more might than North America organisations and through His Son Christ is the only way of salvation for all those who trust in him. There is only one God the triune God. No other Gods have ever existed. Why don't you apply James 1:5 to this, then reread the lds position on gods.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I don't think you understand my point, if smith was not a Christian at 12 years old when he supposedly prayed James 1:5 then why did he not find true wisdom, i. e. Christ his savior?

He already knew that and had already acknowledge Christ as his savior. That wasn't his question.

Jane maybe most of my posts do not make sense to you.

Your English could use some work at points. That's ok- so does mine at points (typo's are the bane of my existence). That's why people clarify when English fails.

'Well masons are Christians' is based only on my understanding, but if only God can judge then we should not really give our opinions or views on anyone or anything,

We should never say "So and so is not Christian". Only God can judge that, and it's against the rules of CF.

so not much point posting anything on these forums right?

These forums exist for rational respectful conversation, not to say "that person's not Christian" (hence why it's against the rules).

Jane maybe I can encourage you to read the bible, read passages of scripture, not just isolation.

To you as well Don't just read the Bible in isolation, but with prayer and beseeching God for wisdom. God lives- He speaks!

There is only one God the triune God.

I actually have a question about the Trinity: could you find me a Bible verse where it discusses Trinitarian consubstantiality of God?

 

[withwonderingawe]

I don't think you understand my point, if smith was not a Christian at 12 years old when he supposedly prayed James 1:5 then why did he not find true wisdom, i. e. Christ his saviour?

But he did, even spoke to him.

 

[Rescued One]

Per Mormonism:

Abraham, Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

They sinned like the rest of us. They aren't angels or gods.

This teaching is false.

 

[Rescued One]

John 7
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

IOW, be careful of how you judge. We have to identify sin and false teachings and confront those who practice it.

 

[Rescued One]

But he did, even spoke to him.

That isn't true because his religion contradicts what God already taught us.

 

[fatboys]

John 7
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

IOW, be careful of how you judge. We have to identify sin and false teachings and confront those who practice it.

Boy putting words in their mouths

 

[fatboys]

That isn't true because his religion contradicts what God already taught us.

But man stopped listening thousands of years ago. Man brought in non biblical teachings and call them traditions or they misinterpret to meet their own ideas of who what and where God is

 

[BigDaddy4]

But man stopped listening thousands of years ago. Man brought in non biblical teachings and call them traditions or they misinterpret to meet their own ideas of who what and where God is

An assertion you or your church cannot prove. There are posters on here whose churches have extensive history that would contradict your assertion. You and your church would have to prove they are false. And you can't. Repeating your church's lies does not make it true.