The fundamental question: How did Jesus' death atone for our sins?

[littlebopeek]

X-Pres wants a minimal amount of theological jargon and preaching in our responses. He wants a rational philosophically sound explanation of how Jesus' atonement mediates divine justice and forgiveness. In my discussion with him, I surmise that he would respond the way I presume to speak for him below, but I'm eager for him to correct my assumptions and clarify his burning questions on the atonement question.

Sky W: "We must start with a premise: The wages of sin is death.
But for XPres, it is precisely that premise that is problematic.

Sky W: "So the premise is that while God enjoys company, He is not compatible with anything less than perfection. That's the hard part to swallow."

So X-Pres asks, "Why would God make an imperfect universe with so much unfair suffering and imperfection and then demand perfection?" We remain imperfect after Jesus' death and even after we believe in Him. So how is it rational to suppose that God looks on those who trust in Jesus' atonement, as if they are perfect? Why would God do that? If you say, "For love," then why not just love us enough to forgive us without the perfection demand?

Sky W: "So to bridge this chasm, God sent his only Son to die for our Sins."

So X-Pres asks, "How can Jesus do that even in principle? Does God need to take out His anger on a scapegoat like Jesus? How is that justice? How can anyone, even God's Son, take responsibility for my guilt?"

Sky W.: "So Jesus was sent to pay the price for all our sins."

So X-Pres asks: "What exactly does that mean? How can Jesus' death pay any "price," let alone the price for our sins?
Does God say, "People have sinned, and I demand blood--someone else's blood, if necessary?" If I am responsible for my own mistakes, how can anyone, even God's Son, pay the penalty for MY sin? That, I believe is X-Pres's issue. You are preaching jargon-ridden doctrine and he wants rational explanation.

insigh4u: "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin."

So X-Pres asks: "You are quoting Scripture and make Jesus sound blood-thirsty." How does it make logical sense for bloodshed to be a necessary condition for divine pardon? Why can't we just repent and have God forgive us? If you reply, "But someone or something has to die for our sin, X-Pres's question is "Why?"

Thanks for this and also, X-pres replied that it was accurate, so i'll try to reply with what I'm learning and see if it helps or - if anyone wants to offer more since I am new to this path as well. I generally cite scripture just so I or someone else can reference it to see if i have correct context/understanding etc. I'm trying to only base my learning on what is written in the bible, so i use a lot of cited scriptures, but i will try not to get off track

Yes, the wages sins pays is death - Genesis 3:3;Proverbs 14:12; Romans 6:23 and the key, at least from what I am learning, is that Adam and Even knew this BEFORE they decided to listen to a random, slithering serpent instead of the ONE who told them what would happen if they did....They were presented with two opposing statements and their choice did more than just damn the human race. It called into question God's honesty, His loyalty, and His justice. As someone else mentioned, if God just wiped the slate clean, started over, said -"Meh, well THAT was a mistake..." that would have shown His POWER, but would he have done anything to show those other perfect qualities to the creation He promised eternal life on a paradise earth to? God was not being an over-reactive parent - He warned them of the SPECIFIC, unchanging consequence if they chose to eat of that tree because he IS the God of love, wisdom, justice and power. As difficult and heart crushing as it must have been for Him to accept that Adam and Eve chose to disobey, if - IF God had done anything else besides stay consistent with the consequence (which we should think of as a natural law or something like gravity), would we be able to trust in His FUTURE promises for mankind? I have to think that He thought making the consequence as serious as possible, AND BEING RIGHT THERE WITH THEM IN THE FREAKING GARDEN would have been sufficient....but - the fact of the matter is, BEFORE they disobeyed, He TOLD them what would happen. And - as we learn throughout the bible, He cannot lie - His promises always come true - that's why we can trust Him. But if the consequences of eating that fruit had NOT been death, then Satan would have been telling Eve the truth and God would have been the Liar So, at that point, what could He do...?

As Deadworm just went into great detail on in a subsequent post - animal sacrifice was a band aid - an attempt to cover our sins with a death (also goes to the point on another thread about animals going to heaven i think, but i'll leave that one alone) and still have the hope of future salvation.

Jesus Christ was that hope. He came from Heaven, yes, but He was still a mortal (albeit perfect) man while he walked the earth in order to fulfill GOD'S ORIGINAL PURPOSE that PERFECT humans COULD choose not to sin. And - Jesus did it in an IMPERFECT world. Romans 5:12 and Romans 5:19, a lot of context in between those 2 verses as well. He still had free will. If he was not facing the TEMPTATION of sin - Matthew 4:1-10, would it have been a sacrifice of adequate value to save us? It HAD to be spotless blood given freely in order to cover all of mankind's transgressions. Blood IS life in the bible... Jesus Christ gives us HOPE that we have the POTENTIAL for salvation, to be perfect once again. GOD already knows humans have this potential created in them, but He, in His infinite, undeserved kindness and mercy, gave us a Savior who could be physically witnessed by everyone who was there when He was alive on this earth. But while He was here, He also told us more things had to happen - Matthew 24:7-22. So there are REASONS that we are still imperfect beings in an imperfect world, a world where Satan has been cast down from Heaven to dwell with us, he is still roving about like a lion, waiting to devour us and prove God wrong. 1 Peter 5:8-11. And the bible tells us that it will be MORE difficult times than even when Noah was alive, when the bible told us then that EVERY inclination of man's heart was ALL bad, ALL the time and God actually REGRETTED making man Genesis 6:5-6. I mean, today some of us are at least trying and still, we are told both by Jesus as well as his Apostles that it would be worse than that before the end comes... 2 Timothy 3:1-7 and Matthew cited above.

Stay strong, keep studying! I freely admit I know very little, I have lived most of my life as an agnostic seeker and that brought me very little happiness or peace, but i can honestly say that studying the bible is changing my life and giving me hope again I pray it can do the same for you. I also welcome all discourse, I know that my belief in the resurrection of the righteous AND the unrighteous to judgment and a perfect paradise earth that is a reflection of God's heavenly realm is not the mainstream doctrinal view, but it is heavily supported by scripture from what I have seen. Plus it makes sense in the way that God created angels for the heavenly realm and humans for the physical one. Both have free will, both have issues that are being worked out by the ONE who gave us all free will, and when HE says it's done, I have (almost ) no doubt it will all be ok!

 

[ewq1938]

But this does not address the question of why. Sure, the lamb sacrifice represents Jesus' sacrifice. That's a nice device for God to use to get humanity ready for Jesus. But in the end, it is only a picture of the sacrifice of Jesus, not an explanation for the sacrifice of Jesus.

Sure it is. Jesus was to be the lamb slain for our sins. The real question would be why a Lamb ever had to be slain. Only God can answer that. He says blood is needed for the remission of sins but never explains why.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Sure it is. Jesus was to be the lamb slain for our sins. The real question would be why a Lamb ever had to be slain. Only God can answer that. He says blood is needed for the remission of sins but never explains why.

So your reply is, we are not given to know why. Well, that is an answer.

 

[ewq1938]

So your reply is, we are not given to know why. Well, that is an answer.

It's the only possible answer unless you have a scripture that explains why God usually requires blood for the remission of sin.

Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

But blood is not always required...just usually. Here are some examples:


Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

No blood was needed in these cases.

 

[Chriliman]

It's the only possible answer unless you have a scripture that explains why God usually requires blood for the remission of sin.

Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

But blood is not always required...just usually. Here are some examples:


Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

No blood was needed in these cases.

The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, which means Jesus' blood comes before and makes all forgiveness possible.

 

[ewq1938]

The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, which means Jesus' blood comes before and makes all forgiveness possible.

He was slain when he was 33, not before the world. He was meant to be the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. That's what the verse means. And as Paul said, blood is not always needed and I showed examples of that.

 

[JerryPerry]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...



I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

Dear XPres, that had been my big problem too when I began to be interested in the Holy Scriptures. Missionairies that I listened to often conventionally spoke about the crucifixion of Jesus as an offering which fully atoned for our sins like a sufficient payment of our debts. This was obviously in accordance with the apostles' teaching included in the Scriptures. However, it seems to me that many, almost all English translations do not resemble enough some of the basic meaning of the offering of Jesus. It is usually regarded as an offering for the sins to make a reconciliation, to propitiate the God. In Polish translations however (I am a Pole, living in Poland), it is not only just the offering for the sins but it is called a pleading offering for the sins. The sin-offerings of the Law of Moses, named so in English versions, are also called the pleading offerings in Polish, maybe in other languages too. I am not a linguist but please think of Jesus as a pleading Intercessor rather than a modern advocate, merciful, praying for us on knees, with his hands lifted up, like Moses, Abraham, other prophets and desciples of Jesus and Jesus himself did and some Christians also nowadays do, pleading with tears like a mother or parents for his lost children. Think of a sense of suffering. Jesus suffered, was prosecuted and crucified like many prophets before, like the apostles and many Christians today. Would true christianity be possible without suffering of Jesus and his desciples and ours? No, it would not because suffering was and still is needed, enabling us - the Christians - to plead the God for our sins and the sins of others, including our enemies or prosecutors who also may seek the truth of their life sense. Keep in mind however, that our plea and intercession is different from that of Jesus in that Jesus is the God and as the beloved only Son of God is the only Intercessor between God and us while we can intercede to Jesus. God Father has already given a hearing to his Beloved Son and promised to let us in the Heaven Kingdom after a purification from every sin. Nevertheless, Jesus is constantly helping us in our present efforts and fight against all evil, according to the following passages from the Letter to Hebrews, although given here from translation of Bible in Basic English from http://www.o-bible.com. To sum up, I have happily found the ultimate, fully convincing as for me, explanation in the Polish translations of the Holy Scriptures - the words of God Himself directed just to me in the right time. They are logic and reveal "the mechanism" of the atoning done by Our Lord. Many other verses could be cited from the Old and the New Testament, confirming the mercy of Our God, expressed in the salvation through the suffering. God bless you.

2:14 And because the children are flesh and blood, he took a body himself and became like them; so that by his death he might put an end to him who had the power of death, that is to say, the Evil One;
2:15 And let those who all their lives were in chains because of their fear of death, go free.
2:16 For, truly, he does not take on the life of angels, but that of the seed of Abraham.
2:17 Because of this it was necessary for him to be made like his brothers in every way, so that he might be a high priest full of mercy and keeping faith in everything to do with God, making offerings for the sins of the people.
2:18 For having been put to the test himself, he is able to give help to others when they are tested.
4:15 For we have not a high priest who is not able to be touched by the feelings of our feeble flesh; but we have one who has been tested in all points as we ourselves are tested, but without sin.
4:16 Then let us come near to the seat of grace without fear, so that mercy may be given to us, and we may get grace for our help in time of need.
7:25 So that he is fully able to be the saviour of all who come to God through him, because he is ever living to make prayer to God for them.

 

[Everybodyknows]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...



I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

Good question. I often think why couldn't God just make it so he can forgive any sin he wills to forgive? I can forgive anyone i chose to without having to kill myself in order to do it. Maybe God himself is subject to some higher law that he did not create and cannot change.

 

[Chriliman]

He was slain when he was 33, not before the world. He was meant to be the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. That's what the verse means. And as Paul said, blood is not always needed and I showed examples of that.

The verses you referenced don't explicitly say blood isn't needed, that's an inference you're making based on the text.

Revelation 13:8
"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world."

It doesn't say 'he was meant' to be slain from the creation of the world. It says he was slain from the creation of the world.

 

[Deadworm]

Let me clarify my points (1)-(1) in post 19 by reposting point (3) and grounding it in a prophetic text:

(3) God makes it clear that He never authorized the sacrifice system in the Law of Moses in the first place! Rather, He gradually reveals His priorities through progressive revelation, so that the sacrifice system can be adapted to serve His spiritual and ethical purposes.

Through Jeremiah's prophetic sermon in Temple, God makes one of the most shocking admissions in the Bible:
"Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. 22 For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, “Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you (7:21-23--NRSV).”

God denies the standard Jewish assumption that He revealed to Moses the laws of sacrifices and atoning burnt offerings in the wilderness. But God's method of dealing with sin works with this sacrifice system because of the first 2 of my 10 points: i.e. the sacrifice system is universal in in antiquity and the ancients were not open to any other system. So through progressive revelation, God expresses His true priorities by adapting the truths and principles that He really wants to teach through an already deeply embedded system of sacrifices. Why does God make this disclosure in this sermon? Because God's true priority is Israel's spiritual and ethical obedience, but Israel has been so disobedient that God is suspending the validity of the atoning sacrifice system and is now expressing His true views on sacrifice.

Note the sarcasm in God's advice to do the forbidden and eat the sacrifices themselves. God is subtly reminding them that He never gets hungry! This line of interpretation will be reinforced by my discussion of several other prophetic texts.

 

[littlebopeek]

Good question. I often think why couldn't God just make it so he can forgive any sin he wills to forgive? I can forgive anyone i chose to without having to kill myself in order to do it. Maybe God himself is subject to some higher law that he did not create and cannot change.

He CAN make it so He can forgive any sin, but - he has other qualities besides His awesome POWER. In order to trust not only His promises, but also His commands, He HAS to be consistent, perfectly, in every way. It is HUMANS who keep finangling....as Deadworm mentioned about Jeremiah - God's frustration at humans trying to circumvent His word and His commands are what make Him SEEM inconsistent or petulant, but really, it's US

I mentioned in my earlier reply that IF God had either wiped the slate clean literally by destroying what He created in HIS image OR if the consequence of Adam and Eve's sin had not been death, then God would have been LYING to them and, inadvertently, OR intentionally, Satan would have been telling Eve the truth at Genesis 3:2-5...how would THAT have affected the future of mankind in listening to their Creator's advice? This, for me, is where the bible gets super deep AND super consistent, which was how I, personally, was able to start believing this has to be inspired by God - one PERSON may have been able to come up with a plot that had zero holes in it, but 40+ different human beings, with varying backgrounds, education levels, societal credentials etc.... You can't get THREE people to agree on dinner, much less the meaning of LIFE!!!! But the bible IS consistent, it DOES record many human transgressions, for many reasons - comfort and encouragement, foreboding and warning, upbuilding and hopeful...but the depth of consistency is freaking insane if you can try to approach it without any preconceived need to be validated. That is what is hard for me personally

Anyways, God followed His own rules, which again, makes Him the perfect one for us to trust to guide us in enjoying a peaceful and fulfilling life on this beautiful creation that HE made

 

[danstribe]

Christ, as the Word of God, is the Creator of all things and there is not one thing created that He is not responsible for creating. The penalty of sin requires death and all mankind has sinned only Christ never sinned so the value of His life is and always will be greater than the value of all who have ever lived or will live.
Romans 5:12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. :19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man (Christ) the many will be made righteous.…

 

[Ron Gurley]

Protestants believe in "substitutionary atonement"

(Jesus the God-Man died FOR / in place of ALL Mankind FOR ALL sins FOR ALL time)
versus
The many RCC sacraments dealing with SIN (all but Holy Orders / Marriage),...doctrines of works for salvation and sanctification.

ATONEMENT ~= RECONCILIATION (all cites to NASB)

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God THROUGH the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved (SANCTIFIED) by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God,
who reconciled us to Himself THROUGH Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,
in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

SUBSTITUTION ~ Jesus died FOR you..in your place

1 Pete 2
18 For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the just (Jesus) for the unjust (Man),
so that He might bring us to God, (RECONCILIATION)
having been put to death in the flesh, (CRUCIFIXION)
but made alive in the spirit; (RESURRECTION + APPEARANCES + ASCENSION)

Romans 5:6,8
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly....But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,

My Christ has finished His complete work and is off the horrible cross. He has RISEN!
The RCC Christ is depicted as remaining on the cross...suffering and bleeding.

Hebrews 10:19 [ A New and Living Way / Covenant ]
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place (God's presence) by the blood of Jesus,

1 John 1:7
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

 

[Saint Nod]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...
I would say:
We need to recognize sin in the world: When we look around we see a world that is deeply flawed. And then when we look deep inside ourselves and our hearts we realise that we are flawed too (Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?)
We need to recognize that on our own we can't do anything about that sin.
We need to recognize that somebody else is needed to cleanse away that sin. And if everybody else is flawed in this world then it has to be a 'perfect being.'
Jesus is that perfect being, He came into the world as 100% man...but most importantly 100% God.
Now here is the catch: we can't do anything to please Him or get His favor since all our efforts to please Him will be flawed. So really we are left with only one option: Accepting Him in faith and what He has to offer in faith. That is, cleansing and forgiveness of our sins.
I would also like to say that it is important that because of Adam's fall in the garden of Eden, sin entered into the world such that ultimately we all die spiritually (1 Corinthians 15:21 "So you see, just as death came into the world through a man...")
But when Jesus died and rose from the grave, He conquered the consequences of sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:57 "But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.")

Sorry for the long answer! But there is a lot in it...the very best thing is to ask God to give you an understanding.... it took a few times of people explaining it to me before I got it!


I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

N

 

[Saint Nod]

I would say:
We need to recognize sin in the world: When we look around we see a world that is deeply flawed. And then when we look deep inside ourselves and our hearts we realise that we are flawed too (Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?)
We need to recognize that on our own we can't do anything about that sin.
We need to recognize that somebody else is needed to cleanse away that sin. And if everybody else is flawed in this world then it has to be a 'perfect being.'
Jesus is that perfect being, He came into the world as 100% man...but most importantly 100% God.
Now here is the catch: we can't do anything to please Him or get His favor since all our efforts to please Him will be flawed. So really we are left with only one option: Accepting Him in faith and what He has to offer in faith. That is, cleansing and forgiveness of our sins.
I would also like to say that it is important that because of Adam's fall in the garden of Eden, sin entered into the world such that ultimately we all die spiritually (1 Corinthians 15:21 "So you see, just as death came into the world through a man...")
But when Jesus died and rose from the grave, He conquered the consequences of sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:57 "But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.")

Sorry for the long answer! But there is a lot in it...the very best thing is to ask God to give you an understanding.... it took a few times of people explaining it to me before I got it!

 

[Ron Gurley]

Q
The fundamental question: How did Jesus' death atone for our sins?

A: The substitutionary atonement came from the shedding of innocent blood by Jesus the God-Man on the Cross FOR all men For all sins FOR all times. His Divine Blood was shed, reconciling Man to God. "IT IS FINISHED!"

 

[bling]

Good question. I often think why couldn't God just make it so he can forgive any sin he wills to forgive? I can forgive anyone i chose to without having to kill myself in order to do it. Maybe God himself is subject to some higher law that he did not create and cannot change.

No

 

[bling]

The subject you are addressing is huge since books have been written on it with lots of different conclusions; mostly due to the preconceived ideas of the authors.


We can work on this together and draw our own most likely alternative interpretation that will be very biblical, consistent and logical.


To begin with:


During the time of Christ, the Jewish people in and around Jerusalem would have had a much better understanding of atonement since atonement sacrifices were going on every hour at the temple, maybe thousands each day. All mature adults would have most likely participated in the individual process of atonement, but this was only for unintentional sins (really minor sins) since intentional sins had no Old Testament system for atonement.


Those only able to afford a bag of flour (Lev. 5) certainly would not have considered that bag of flour to be a “substitute” for them. There is nothing to suggest the Jewish people ever thought of any sacrifices to be substitutes for them. So what did they experience in this atonement process for unintentional sins?

If we could relate to their atonement experience for “minor” sins we might be able to extrapolate to what the atonement process would be like for intentional sins? (Read Lev. 5)


Forgiveness for unintentional sins came after the completion of the atonement process (Lev. 5), but did God need a bag of flour to forgive the person’s sins?


Would God need anything to forgive a person’s sins or is it the person needing something to accept that forgiveness as pure charity?


Is Christ Crucified described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom payment (it is not even said to be like a ransom payment, but it was a ransom payment)?


I find the ransom description more than just an analogy to be an excellent fit and I am not talking about the “Ransom Theory of Atonement”

(The “Ransom Theory of Atonement” has God paying satan the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ but: Does God owe Satan anything? Is there some cosmic “law” saying you have to pay the kidnapper? Would it not be wrong for God to pay satan, if God could just as easily and safely take back His children without paying satan?)


Would a ransom as those in the first century might understand it (it was well known Caesura at 21 had been kidnapped and a ransom paid for him) included the following elements:


1. Someone other than the captive paying the ransom.

2. The payment is a huge sacrificial payment for the payer, who would personally prefer not to pay.

3. Since those that come to God must come as children, it is the children of God that go to the Father.

4. The payer cannot safely or for some other reason get his children any other way than making the payment.

5. The kidnapper is totally undeserving.

6. The kidnapper can accept or reject the payment.



Go to Luke 15: 11-32 the prodigal son story to illustrate:


Who in the middle of the night snuck in and dragged off the young son, force the son to do evil stuff and finally chained him to a pigsty starving to death? (this is not the way it happened, but the child of the father was kidnapped.)


Who returned to the father, was it the son that rebelliously wished his father’s death so he could get his inheritance or was it the child of the father?


We can only come to our Father as children, so who is keeping the nonbeliever in the unbelieving state (who is this kidnapper)?


There is the one ransom, but could there be many kidnappers and many children?


Who are the kidnappers?


Looking at verses in particular:


(NIV) Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—


“God presented” this might be better expressed as “God is offering” since it will later be received, received or rejected on the contingency of some kind of “faith”. Instead of received it might better be translated as accepted (with the option of being rejected or not accepted).

“Sacrifice of atonement” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer as the “ransom payment” or just “ransom”. So God is offering a ransom payment to be accepted by those with faith or rejected by those refusing or just not accepted by those lacking faith.


A huge part of that ransom payment that especially applies to those that are already Christians is the life giving cleansing blood of Christ. Christ and God would have personally preferred that blood remained in Christ’s veins, but I needed it given up by Christ to flow over both my outside and my heart to know, experience, “trust” and feel I am cleansed and made alive. So Christ willingly gave up His blood for me and because of me. This is an overwhelming tragedy I insisted on to believe: I was made holy, righteous and stand justified. Without knowing and feeling this blood flowing over my heart, I might question my cleansing?


“Demonstrate his righteousness” God did not become righteous, but just showed the righteousness He has always had. (God’s justice/ holiness/being right) comes with the atoning sacrifice that includes the life giving cleansing blood showing God’s righteousness/justice in a very particular way; by resolving the huge problem that existed under the Old Covenant. That huge problem in the Old Covenant was with the handling of intentional sins that where committed, repented of, and which the individual sought forgiveness from God for doing (and God forgave without justly disciplining the sinner [thus not showing His righteousness through His disciplining]). These sins could be forgiven by God, but there was no way to fairly/justly discipline (punish) the sinner and still have the sinner live in the Promised Land. God did have fair/just punishments (discipline) for these sins, but the Jews could not follow through with them, since all Jews deserved to be treated similarly (there would be no one left in the Promised Land).


“in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” Instead of “unpunished” I would translate that Greek word to be “undisciplined”.

“because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”, shows the contrast between before and after the cross. This is not saying: “before the cross sins are now being punished by Christ going to the cross”, but is say they were left unpunished prior to the cross. If they are being handled the “same way” as sins after the cross there would be no contrast? (And there are lots of other problems with this reasoning.) There is no “punishment” (disciplining for intentional sins) before the cross and there is “punishment” (disciplining of God’s children) with the cross.


Any good parent realizes the need for not just forgiving their rebellious disobedient child, but to also see to the child’s fair/just/loving discipline if at all possible, but under the Old Covenant there was no “fair/just/loving discipline” so God could not show His justice/righteousness except to point out in the Law what really should happen, but that is not “good” disciplining, the child can almost feel they got away with something.


By my coming to the realization of my forcing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, because of my personal sins I experience a death blow to my heart (Acts 2: 37) the worst possible experience I can have and still live (That is also the most sever disciplining I can experience and still live). Thus I know God is my loving concerned Parent (since He at great cost has seen to my disciplining). I know how significant my sins really are; I can put those sins behind me after being disciplined. Since God and Jesus shared in my disciplining “I am crucified with Christ” (a teaching moment) our relationship is even greater than before my transgressing.

What is the benefit/value for us that we would want to accept the ransom payment of Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder?

What value benefit did it have for those 3000 on the day of Pentecost?

Would those 3000 have become baptized believers on the day of Pentecost if Peter had not been able to say: Acts 2:36 “…this Jesus whom you crucified”?

So for those 3000, their crucifying Christ (ransom payment/atoning sacrifice) resulted in them becoming baptized believers on the day of Pentecost! Did it have value for them?


This will get us started if you really want to know.

 

[Deadworm]

As already noted, God is stuck with a sacrifice system which He dislikes, but He chooses to reveal His will within that system in order to produce the spirituality He requires:

"Sacrifice and offerings You do not desire...burnt offering and sin offering You have not required (Psalm 40:6)."

God prefers that we transform atoning sacrifice into a metaphor of spirituality: "You have no delight in sacrifice. If I were to give a burnt offering, You would not be pleased. The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite spirit You will not despise (Psalm 51:16-17)." Only if we offer the right spiritual sacrifices are the literal atoning sacrifices valid (51:18-19).

In Micah 6:6-8 notice what else God considers "good" and therefore "requires" instead of atoning sacrifice:

"With what shall I come before the Lord and how shall I bow before the God on high? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings?...He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you? To do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God."

In fact, God actually "hates" atoning sacrifice in itself. What matters to God is the conduct that "flows" naturally from our inner spirituality: "I hate, I despise your festivals, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies...Even though you offer me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them...But let justice roll like rivers and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream (Amos 5:21-24).

Contrary to our standard interpretation of the Pentateuch, God never asked for atoning sacrifices in the first place. Do you see blood atonement essential to God's will? If so, you need to read what God says about this belief through Isaiah:

"What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings...I do not delight in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats. When you come to me, who asked this from your hand (Isaiah 1:11-12)?"

In 1:17 God clarifies His preference for an obsession with social justice: "Learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Some necessary reading: Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia

The reality is that specifying the exact details of the significance of Christ's atoning work has been an ongoing conversation in the Christian Church for the last two millennia. And while some Christians might think that there's a single simple answer, there isn't. Because Scripture doesn't offer a single simple answer; Scripture speaks using a variety of images, words, and ideas to express the reality of God reconciling the world to Himself through the death and resurrection of His Son.

-CryptoLutheran