My "Do atheists understand the Bible" Challenge

[KWCrazy]

Sure, but the respondent specifically said 1-11 so that is what I was responding to. I'm not sure how tour response connects to the challenge in the thread so maybe you could help me out?

Taken out of context, a verse or part of a verse can be shown to mean something it does not mean. This verse specifically is used by some to show that the earth, not God, created the vegetation. It's along the same line as saying that the Bible claims pi is 3 when decimals weren't invented for another thousand years, claiming that a cud chewing rodent is a rabbit when it was not or claiming that the Bible claims 6 legged birds when it is talking about locusts. That's why I always look for the surrounding verses to make sure I have the proper context.

 

[Athée]

The heart of the emphasis is that God created life in general and man in particular:

So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen. 1:27)
​

That's an interesting Hebrew literary feature, it's called a parallelism. A lot of the times they would repeat things for emphasis, most of the Proverbs have this kind of a structure. It might also interest you that Yaweh isn't the name for God here, that's the covenant name of God made known to Moses early in Exodus. The word here is Elohim which means God Almighty.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Good stuff Mark. I hopefully would have gotten there but I mistakenly thought the post was about gen 1:1-11
As for the name I tend to just use Yahweh as it is the more familiar name and most Christians that I meet assume that El, Elohim and Yaweh are conflatable terms.

 

[Athée]

Taken out of context, a verse or part of a verse can be shown to mean something it does not mean. This verse specifically is used by some to show that the earth, not God, created the vegetation. It's along the same line as saying that the Bible claims pi is 3 when decimals weren't invented for another thousand years, claiming that a cud chewing rodent is a rabbit when it was not or claiming that the Bible claims 6 legged birds when it is talking about locusts. That's why I always look for the surrounding verses to make sure I have the proper context.

A good practice, even as an atheist I try to do that. Otherwise it's just cherry picking

 

[brightlights]

Hey all (AV the copyright cheque for the title is in the mail...)

In a recent conversation with a church leader he expressed the idea that as an atheist I simply can't understand scripture as accurately as he does. He pointed out that Jesus taught in parables explicitly to preclude understanding by some segment of his audience. I have hear this same claim from other believers as well and so.... Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

Present me with a section of scripture that you think an atheist simply can't understand. I will take a stab at interpreting it and if I mess it up you can explain to me what it actually means. If after your explanation I still can't understand it (note I am not saying agree with it) then you will have completed this challenge successfully!

Note: If you are not of the belief that an atheist can't understand scripture properly and have never deployed that argument yourself, please give this thread a pass. If this OP does reflect your belief, however, please cast down thy gauntlets

It all depends on what you mean by "understand".

Anyone is capable of understanding the meaning of the words, the historical background, the flow of argumentation, the points being made, etc... This doesn't take a spiritual, regenerate person to understand these things.

But there are other levels of understanding. Some people who have actually been to Israel and seen the geographic locations described in the Bible have a level of understanding that those who have not been don't. Likewise people who have been through a divorce have a level of understanding that non-divorcees do not concerning divorce. Those who have children have a level of understanding concerning passages related to children and parenting that non-parents do not.

In the same way, there are many things in Scripture that are difficult for a non-believer to understand simply because they are not on the inside of the faith.

Here's a passage from Philippians 4:11-13 - "Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me."

Can you understand the logical meaning of Paul's words? Yes. Do you have an existential understanding of the reality that Paul is referring to? You'll have to answer that question.

 

[mark kennedy]

Good stuff Mark. I hopefully would have gotten there but I mistakenly thought the post was about gen 1:1-11
As for the name I tend to just use Yahweh as it is the more familiar name and most Christians that I meet assume that El, Elohim and Yaweh are conflatable terms.

There are a number of names for God, in that psaage Elohim means God Almighty, other forms can be a god, judge or just someone powerfull. Yaweh is actually 'I AM THAT I AM', its in the perfent tense, the Jews sometimes translate it the Eternal One. Theres a passage where God tells Moses the patriarchs knew me as El Shaddai but you know me as Yaweh. I always thought it was interesting, when Jesus taught his disciples to pray to address him as Father. Now I capitolized it but its really a pronoun when you think about it.

 

[Athée]

It all depends on what you mean by "understand".

Anyone is capable of understanding the meaning of the words, the historical background, the flow of argumentation, the points being made, etc... This doesn't take a spiritual, regenerate person to understand these things.

But there are other levels of understanding. Some people who have actually been to Israel and seen the geographic locations described in the Bible have a level of understanding that those who have not been don't. Likewise people who have been through a divorce have a level of understanding that non-divorcees do not concerning divorce. Those who have children have a level of understanding concerning passages related to children and parenting that non-parents do not.

In the same way, there are many things in Scripture that are difficult for a non-believer to understand simply because they are not on the inside of the faith.

Here's a passage from Philippians 4:11-13 - "Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me."

Can you understand the logical meaning of Paul's words? Yes. Do you have an existential understanding of the reality that Paul is referring to? You'll have to answer that question.

Good post!
I certainly take your point, although if experience is crucial to understanding then there are many things that God doesn't understand
In any event the question then would become, is there any measurable state of being that I couldn't experience as an atheist that a Christian can.

 

[brightlights]

Good post!
I certainly take your point, although if experience is crucial to understanding then there are many things that God doesn't understand

I think it's difficult to maintain this since Jesus became a human being and played by our rules. What is it that you think that God doesn't understand?

In any event the question then would become, is there any measurable state of being that I couldn't experience as an atheist that a Christian can.

Yes. You cannot experience faith in Jesus Christ. You cannot experience repentance from sin. You cannot experience the joy of having the forgiveness of sins from God. And you will not be able to experience eternal life in a New Heavens and New Earth.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[-57]

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[Athée]

I think it's difficult to maintain this since Jesus became a human being and played by our rules. What is it that you think that God doesn't understand?



Yes. You cannot experience faith in Jesus Christ. You cannot experience repentance from sin. You cannot experience the joy of having the forgiveness of sins from God. And you will not be able to experience eternal life in a New Heavens and New Earth.

1) Just being a bit cheeky but for example if experience is integral to understanding then God doesn't understand fear of death, the modern cellphone, cancer (unless Jesus had it) etc.
2) which of these are measurable states such that we could verify your claim?

 

[Athée]

When do the seven trumpets sound and why?

How did John prophesy again as foretold in Revelation 10?

Could you specify which verses you are asking about here, thanks

 

[Athée]

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

That is a great one, especially since an Armenian and a Calvinist would disagree about what is being said here. For the record my own reading of the Bible suggests that predestination of the elect and irresistible grace are the most internally coherent view.
In any case I would take this to mean that faith (the very element needed for salvation) is itself a gift from God, a gift which must be bestowed before the human can come to Him.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Athée]

What is happening at the last part of Isaiah 66?

There is a lot going on in Isiah 66 which verses near the end did you want me to look at?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Winken]

No doubt that the Bible itself reveals that every word was caused to be written by God.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

1 Corinthians 2:9-14

Only the Holy Spirit of God is capable of interpreting and applying the Bible in context. Look up verbal plenary inspiration.

We need no argument, no debate, no multiple "considerations."

1 Corinthians 2:9-14

 

[brightlights]

1) Just being a bit cheeky but for example if experience is integral to understanding then God doesn't understand fear of death,

Jesus was afraid to face death. Remember the Garden of Gethsemane scene?

the modern cellphone, cancer (unless Jesus had it) etc.

Does God know what it's like to have cancer from first hand experience? Maybe not. But he does know what it's like to be subject to sickness, disease, and death.

Does God know what it's like to use a cellphone from first hand experience? Maybe not. But I'm not sure that this is making much of a point.

2) which of these are measurable states such that we could verify your claim?

I'm not sure what you mean by measurable state. Are you saying that you know what it's like to have faith in Jesus and to repent of your sins?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Endtime Survivors]

A question for you though... is it possible that the pastor was wrong about me personally but correct about atheists generally?

He was kinda right. But, rather than saying some people can't understand the lessons found in the Bible, it's more like they fail to appreciate the lessons. When Jesus talked about why he used parables, he said the people have eyes and ears, but they don't see or hear. They had the ability but they chose not to listen, and it's not just in Christianity or atheism that this happens, but in all areas of our lives; we often choose to disregard what we don't already want to hear or agree with.

Here's one that regularly confounds Christians. Luke 20:25. Feel free to include surrounding context if you like when explaining what you think is the lesson.