Who does the Temple Mt belong to?

NeedyFollower

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If I were the adversary, I would have Christians studying and debating prophecy rather than redeeming the time. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies. Much of what we are doing I am afraid is knowledge based and does not conform us into the image of Christ.
 
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geiroffenberg

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I cannot agree with this because although I am
essentially certain that I have G-d's Holy Spirit......
I have close to ZERO understanding of what the Levites and
Orthodox Jewish Rabbi's must do on the TEmple Mount as Ezekiel 40 -
48 is literally fulfilled in the future?
RIGHT!
The temple in ezekiel was just a commandment and a promise to israel when in captivity in babylon. They had been far away from fufilling the duties given to them trough the laws of the temple, and he shows them this vision to make them repent, so they can return and rebuild the temple. Just a simple reading of chapter 43-44 makes it clear, it was to make them asahmed and it is a commandment for them to build it. But they never did it to the extent god required, most didnt even return to jerusalem.

It was never a prophecy of a temple in our future where Jesus was to sit, its preposterous because new testament teaching is buildt on the fact that god annointed a new temple, and destroyed the one made by hands. Now our new jerusalem is the one in heaven, that is coming down, and the throne is the throne of God where the slain lamp is seated. This is part of the "eternal gospel" and this is the new testament teaching from the four gospels til the book of revelation.

If jesus was to come down and rule the world from a physical temple, it would make all of the new testament invalid, in fact negate and deny the gospel itself. Jesus taught it was good for us that he went away to be seated with teh fater, becaue we would be given the holy spirit and WE would be the temple of God. If jesus was to come back physically and sit in a house buildt by stone, then all of that wouldnt be true any more and who can call themself believers and at the same time ahve this insane theology that teh new testament teaching is going to stop being true?? And that instead a earthly temple would come, a earthly priesthood shall be instititued and a earthloy system of animal sacrifices shall be in place again ALL TOTALLY against the teachings of the new testament that clearly says these things belong to the old and is removed.
 
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DennisTate

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RIGHT!
The temple in ezekiel was just a commandment and a promise to israel when in captivity in babylon. They had been far away from fufilling the duties given to them trough the laws of the temple, and he shows them this vision to make them repent, so they can return and rebuild the temple. Just a simple reading of chapter 43-44 makes it clear, it was to make them asahmed and it is a commandment for them to build it. But they never did it to the extent god required, most didnt even return to jerusalem.

It was never a prophecy of a temple in our future where Jesus was to sit, its preposterous because new testament teaching is buildt on the fact that god annointed a new temple, and destroyed the one made by hands. Now our new jerusalem is the one in heaven, that is coming down, and the throne is the throne of God where the slain lamp is seated. This is part of the "eternal gospel" and this is the new testament teaching from the four gospels til the book of revelation.

If jesus was to come down and rule the world from a physical temple, it would make all of the new testament invalid, in fact negate and deny the gospel itself. Jesus taught it was good for us that he went away to be seated with teh fater, becaue we would be given the holy spirit and WE would be the temple of God. If jesus was to come back physically and sit in a house buildt by stone, then all of that wouldnt be true any more and who can call themself believers and at the same time ahve this insane theology that teh new testament teaching is going to stop being true?? And that instead a earthly temple would come, a earthly priesthood shall be instititued and a earthloy system of animal sacrifices shall be in place again ALL TOTALLY against the teachings of the new testament that clearly says these things belong to the old and is removed.

I am of the belief that the statement that I bolded and enlarged is illogical.

I could be incorrect..... but that is how I personally understand the implications of
the verse......

Luke 24:25

"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:"

I understand the phrase...."all that the prophets have spoken" to include every verse from Ezekiel chapter 40 - 48, including those living waters predicted in Ezekiel chapter 47.

The question is.....
is Messiah Yeshua - Jesus like ancient King Cyrus in any ways?

Cyrus gave freedom of religion to all 127 provinces of the Medo - Persian Empire, so does Messiah Yeshua - Jesus allow freedom of religion on earth.... when Zechariah chapter 14 is fulfilled and the millennial rule over the earth begins?

I believe that he does.... and the amazing meeting between former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. is an example of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his role as the ultimate Cyrus!
 
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DennisTate

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If I were the adversary, I would have Christians studying and debating prophecy rather than redeeming the time. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies. Much of what we are doing I am afraid is knowledge based and does not conform us into the image of Christ.

True.... but one of the
questions facing all Christians today is whether or not Christians have a responsibility to..... at least to some degree.... .support the literal fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48. Many Christians are unnecessarily offended at the literal Third Temple as somehow being an insult to the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus but..... this it is not necessary at all to be offended by the idea of Christians having a job to fulfill to go to all nations.... .and the Jews have to work out specific events and rituals in Israel that were commanded by Moses / Moshe.
 
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DennisTate

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Google the words....."Dr. George Ritchie City of Light" for more information on the New Jerusalem that already exists in a higher dimension of space - time that will somehow be also soon created literally in the nation of Israel.
 
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geiroffenberg

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I am of the belief that the statement that I bolded and enlarged is illogical.

I could be incorrect..... but that is how I personally understand the implications of
the verse......

Luke 24:25

"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:"

I understand the phrase...."all that the prophets have spoken" to include every verse from Ezekiel chapter 40 - 48, including those living waters predicted in Ezekiel chapter 47.


Of course it does, i dont quite understand the problem, though. If it is that the prophecy MUST be fulfilled in a physical sense, no matter how israel would respond to the prophecy, then i disagree because the text itself says its a commandment to repent and build it, and then it implies they could also NOT repent and not build it (which happened).

Second, it is nothing new that the prophecies in the OT is conditional. The whole law of moses included many such prophecies which would be fulfilled only if they fulfilled their part of the old covenant.

Third, this passage from luke you quote says he opened their eyes so they could understand all of the scriptures and what was written about him.

In other words, if ezekiels temple must be fulfilled then it istn about him but about a building. But the fact that it is ALL about him, is still true, becaue: But all of the temples - whether they are buildt or not - whether they stand to day or not (and we know none of them stood the test of time nor God, because of their disobedience) is only a "shadow" of the true body, which is the body of christ, and the true temple, which in the new testament is 100% eternally claimed to be the body of christ, aka the saints.

So its still about him, but as so many other conditional prophecyes it was never fulfilled, but as all of the law and prophets, it still serves as shadow for the gospel.


The question is.....
is Messiah Yeshua - Jesus like ancient King Cyrus in any ways?

Cyrus gave freedom of religion to all 127 provinces of the Medo - Persian Empire, so does Messiah Yeshua - Jesus allow freedom of religion on earth.... when Zechariah chapter 14 is fulfilled and the millennial rule over the earth begins?

Well, of course, zech 14 also talked about jesus and the day he would open a river of life for all nations coming out from jerusalem, and his feet would stand on the mt olive etc (it happened): There are many things in all of the prophets that are of a prophetic allgircal language, and we today tend to assume a literal physical fulfilment, so we miss what it was all about. But it happened.
The millennial rule over earth is no where described in the bible, its only parphrasing erronious a part of a passage in rev. 20. It just says that certain of these saints/martyrs will rise again and rule with crhsit for a thousand years. It does not say christ will mainfest physically on earth and rule here for 1000 years some day in the future. In fact the whole book repeats that his knogdom and rulership is now, and because he is on the ultimate place of rulership, Gods throne - which from the day of that vision was not only called The throne of God, but the throne of God and the lamb.

On top of this, the particular book of revelation stats already in its first verse that the whole vision part was symbolic ("semeion" is the greek word) and numbers and beasts etc should not be taken literally. We dont think people actually will run around with 666 on their foreheads (well some do, i guess....) we also realize that when god talks about the cattle on the "thousand hills", its not literally noe thousand hills! It means how many hills there are with cattle on them, god owns them. Mill as the greatest number in the greek numerical system meant symbolically eternal.
As for a kingdom, if we insist that this passage talks about a kingdom taht will stand for a thousand years, it would then only mean that it will do what no other kingdom ever has done....withstand the force of time! If a kingdom still stands after a thousand years, it is the eternal kingdom.

But this strange passage does not have the autority to topple all the clear gospel teaching in the new testament, that says jesus is the king of kings now, and that he already made us "kings and priests on earth" with him (not some i a coming millennium, which is a un biblical word btw) and that he was given "all power in ehaven and on earth" No millennium can change that.

I believe that he does.... and the amazing meeting between former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. is an example of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his role as the ultimate Cyrus!

I love howard storm, its an amazing story, but i dont see what it has to do with the ezekiel temple.
 
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geiroffenberg

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Google the words....."Dr. George Ritchie City of Light" for more information on the New Jerusalem that already exists in a higher dimension of space - time that will somehow be also soon created literally in the nation of Israel.

Im not being mean and wanting to disagree with you because you definitly have a respect for the word of god, and i hate to argue with ppl like that.

But my question is, YES, the city of God, the heavenly jerusalem, which paul calls "our mother" is up there and is "coming down on earth" as john said (in present tense, mind you, not future)

But why only to modern israel? If all saints all voer the world has this kingdom spiritually within them (as the gospel of jesus proclaimed, the kingdom is with you, among you, within you, at hand) and if this is true for people all voer the earth, and if jesus taught all this people to have the attitude of "be on earth as it is in heaven", why only israel? Seems the heavenly city should be the norm for all of us, and that there are no limits to where it should manfiest, dont that sound a lot more like God? :D
 
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NeedyFollower

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True.... but one of the
questions facing all Christians today is whether or not Christians have a responsibility to..... at least to some degree.... .support the literal fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48. Many Christians are unnecessarily offended at the literal Third Temple as somehow being an insult to the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus but..... this it is not necessary at all to be offended by the idea of Christians having a job to fulfill to go to all nations.... .and the Jews have to work out specific events and rituals in Israel that were commanded by Moses / Moshe.
I believe as far as I am able to understand, that we are to preach repentance for the remission of sins, making disciples of all nations teaching them to observe all that the Lord commanded , baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost . I believe that our christian sisters learn to be discreet , chaste, keepers at home so that the Word of God be not blasphemed amongst the unbelievers . That fathers raise their children up in the fear and admissions of the Lord. That we are to keep ourselves unspotted from the world.

Originally we were to provoke Israel to jealousy of our close relationship with God the Father through faith in His Son Jesus Christ ...teach Israel to love their enemies since God loved us when we were His enemies . The modern nation of Israel was created by many Jews who were secular. We look for a city who's maker and builder is God . As Stephen our first martyr said , Know ye not that God does not reside in a temple made with hands ? The heavens are His throne and the earth is His footstool . What is man going to build the eternal God . What shall the created build the creator. There is a reason God ordained the destruction of the old temple . Our tendency is to worship any thing we touch. What are we teaching the Jewish nation ? We send them 3 billion a year so they can learn to love their enemies ? Are they ( Israel ) teaching others to be strangers and pilgrims . I think we are pretty lost and I am afraid many of the early christians would wonder who we are and where are the christians.
 
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geiroffenberg

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Many Christians are unnecessarily offended at the literal Third Temple as somehow being an insult to the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus but..... this it is not necessary at all to be offended by the idea of Christians having a job to fulfill to go to all nations.... .and the Jews have to work out specific events and rituals in Israel that were commanded by Moses / Moshe.
i can by firsthand verify and witness that messianic leaders in israel are taken back and offended at this idea of another earthly temple.
THe churches of messianic jews receiving no support despite being very persecuted from all sides, which western churches support - even financially - strange projects among jewish believers in israel thats about building the temple, reinstating the priesthood etc. There are some huge problems with this. And of course, we can not deny the people of jewish faith that is bound to follow their old coveneant, but we are talking about new covenant believers here, and that covenant says the earthly temple, the levitical priestehood and the animal sacrifices (which god says he has no pleasure in, by the way) is forever over. If the word of god means something, these truths stated in the bible will never stop being true, so for believers there is no ground for expecting or cooperating or waiting for a prophecied third temple, but the jews may build something, but thats their problem :D

But for a believer in the gospel of the kingdom, to ever claim god, jesus or the holy spirit came to earth to rule and live from a temple buildt by stone will always contradict the gospel. There is at no time possible that this would happen unless god denied his own eternal gospel
 
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DennisTate

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i can by firsthand verify and witness that messianic leaders in israel are taken back and offended at this idea of another earthly temple.
THe churches of messianic jews receiving no support despite being very persecuted from all sides, which western churches support - even financially - strange projects among jewish believers in israel thats about building the temple, reinstating the priesthood etc. There are some huge problems with this. And of course, we can not deny the people of jewish faith that is bound to follow their old coveneant, but we are talking about new covenant believers here, and that covenant says the earthly temple, the levitical priestehood and the animal sacrifices (which god says he has no pleasure in, by the way) is forever over. If the word of god means something, these truths stated in the bible will never stop being true, so for believers there is no ground for expecting or cooperating or waiting for a prophecied third temple, but the jews may build something, but thats their problem :D

But for a believer in the gospel of the kingdom, to ever claim god, jesus or the holy spirit came to earth to rule and live from a temple buildt by stone will always contradict the gospel. There is at no time possible that this would happen unless god denied his own eternal gospel

I am not claiming that Messiah Yeshua -Jesus will confine himself to the Holy of Holies but..... I am definitely claiming that He will keep His promise to cause a river of living water to pour out from the Temple Mount that will go in two directions and cause healing to begin in a huge way.... Ezekiel 47
 
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DennisTate

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Im not being mean and wanting to disagree with you because you definitly have a respect for the word of god, and i hate to argue with ppl like that.

But my question is, YES, the city of God, the heavenly jerusalem, which paul calls "our mother" is up there and is "coming down on earth" as john said (in present tense, mind you, not future)

But why only to modern israel? If all saints all voer the world has this kingdom spiritually within them (as the gospel of jesus proclaimed, the kingdom is with you, among you, within you, at hand) and if this is true for people all voer the earth, and if jesus taught all this people to have the attitude of "be on earth as it is in heaven", why only israel? Seems the heavenly city should be the norm for all of us, and that there are no limits to where it should manfiest, dont that sound a lot more like God? :D

I didn't say that it comes only to modern Israel.....
but I am saying that the fulfillment of the promises to the Jewish people will not actually take anything away from what is happening in the metaphorical Bride of Messiah the church......

The article on a modern Christian political leader in the spirt of Cyrus has enormous implications......

you can read this in post #1 here:


Do you believe a massive Holy Spirit tsunami is coming?
 
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geiroffenberg

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I am not claiming that Messiah Yeshua -Jesus will confine himself to the Holy of Holies but..... I am definitely claiming that He will keep His promise to cause a river of living water to pour out from the Temple Mount that will go in two directions and cause healing to begin in a huge way.... Ezekiel 47

And on that point we totally agree, and that is the gospel. But it will always be hard for a futurist to debate the fact that jesus, in jerusalem, did in fact open a source for living water by his blood, and it did indeed low out to all the nations, and we understand this river of living water NOT to be physical water but more importantly eternal life...because that is exactly what jesus said it would be.
And by that understanding we also understand that the rest of that prophecy is not physical either, not even the dividing of the olivet - but a dividing of immence powers and a cleaving of covenants did indeed happen of far more importance than just a literal mountain, and this gospel of the living waters did indeed flow out fo all the nations.

we can then understand the enormous implications for our udnerstanding of the gospel this have - namely how we see prophetic language as it forsees the gospel of christ! If it is still to occure inour future, then we can not receive it now - we can only do as jews did in the times of jesis: WAIT for th coming of the kingdom and the full outpouring of the holy spirit.
If it IS already a promise that have its "yes and amen" in christ, then we CAN receive it now, and should strive to do so by faith.

This then literaly are two different gospels, one that says "yes, now" and the other that says "not yet". And since it happens by faith, only one of them is true and only one of them can give the faith needed to receive it, the other will end up fighting against the faith of the gospel of christ - and....thats not good lol.
 
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seashale76

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Sounds like replacement theology to me
No such thing as replacement theology. The Church is Israel. Israel is God's people. Christ came first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles. The first Christians were all Jews. The gentiles were grafted in. All that current Jews have to do is accept their Messiah- as it is- they have rejected Him. Israel does not refer to a modern nation state.
 
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BukiRob

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No such thing as replacement theology. The Church is Israel. Israel is God's people. Christ came first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles. The first Christians were all Jews. The gentiles were grafted in. All that current Jews have to do is accept their Messiah- as it is- they have rejected Him. Israel does not refer to a modern nation state.

We will agree to disagree. You as a gentile do not cease being a gentile. Just like a grafted plant it does not stop producing the same flower or fruit that it did previously.

I completely disagree. The Father is NOT done with the Jews and the modern nation of Israel no matter how much you try to make them go away.

There has ALWAYS been a Jewish remnant of believers.

BTW your entire post is straight up replacement theology.
 
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seashale76

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We will agree to disagree. You as a gentile do not cease being a gentile. Just like a grafted plant it does not stop producing the same flower or fruit that it did previously.

I completely disagree. The Father is NOT done with the Jews and the modern nation of Israel no matter how much you try to make them go away.

There has ALWAYS been a Jewish remnant of believers.

BTW your entire post is straight up replacement theology.
They can accept their Messiah at any time, the same as anyone else. Those that die rejecting Christ have the same outcome as anyone else that rejects Christ too. We all hope that Jews everywhere accept Christ. In fact, there are Jews that became Orthodox Christians, including at least one priest I know of. They believe as I do on the matter.
 
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BukiRob

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They can accept their Messiah at any time, the same as anyone else. Those that die rejecting Christ have the same outcome as anyone else that rejects Christ too. We all hope that Jews everywhere accept Christ. In fact, there are Jews that became Orthodox Christians, including at least one priest I know of. They believe as I do on the matter.
You are citing 1 Jew..... I can cite hundreds who vehemently disagree with you. Scripture certainly does not support your position
 
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seashale76

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No it does not but as I said we will agree to disagree. Grafting in DOES NOT REPLACE THE Original
As I said, the first Christians were Jews. The liturgy and everything involving Christ's Church (i.e. Israel) is a fulfillment of what is seen in the Old Testament and the Jewish feasts. Everything is now seen through the lens of the light of Christ, with the Holy Spirit guiding the Church in all things. The original was transformed by Christ. This is how the grafting in of the gentiles could even take place- and we even see how the process was done and accepted in the book of Acts.

Forgive me, but not only Jews that became Orthodox Christians see the biggest similarities between the Church and Judaism, but one Jewish poster here has said that he and his family see the most similarities between their faith and Orthodox Christianity over all other Christian groups.
 
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