Who does the Temple Mt belong to?

[BukiRob]

I disagree. We have ample examples of grafting in from the beginning.
Exodus 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."
Leviticus 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"
Numbers 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.

The alien (Goyim) could choose to walk upright before Adonai and be obedient to the Father and he was to have the same Torah as the native born Jew. The Goyim did not cease being a gentile but was indeed grafted in... He could choose to become a Jew at some point by becoming circumcised if he was a male... but many did not. David killed such a gentile to steal his wife Bathsheba a sin for which David was harshly judged by G-d.

You and I have very different views on this topic. Messianic Judaism predates your Eastern Orthodoxy. The church in Asia Minor was Messianic who attended synagogue that comprised both gentile converts to Messiah and Jews (SOME OF WHOM) believers.

Acts makes that unmistakably clear. I know its popular to push Jews and Judaism completely out of the picture but that simply does not at all square with the early church history according to scripture. Acts 6:7 7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

So not only were people in Jerusalem along with gentiles coming to faith a "LARGE NUMBER OF PRIESTS" came to faith... this had RADICAL influence and impact on Judaism during the apostolic age.

 

[BukiRob]

Forgive me, but not only Jews that became Orthodox Christians see the biggest similarities between the Church and Judaism, but one Jewish poster here has said that he and his family see the most similarities between their faith and Orthodox Christianity over all other Christian groups.

Then the Jewish poster needs to go to a Messianic synagogue. The Messianic movement is decidedly Jewish in its service and it proclaims that Yeshua (who you call Jesus) is the promised Messiah of Y'Israel.

 

[seashale76]

I disagree. We have ample examples of grafting in from the beginning.
Exodus 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."
Leviticus 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"
Numbers 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.

The alien (Goyim) could choose to walk upright before Adonai and be obedient to the Father and he was to have the same Torah as the native born Jew. The Goyim did not cease being a gentile but was indeed grafted in... He could choose to become a Jew at some point by becoming circumcised if he was a male... but many did not. David killed such a gentile to steal his wife Bathsheba a sin for which David was harshly judged by G-d.

You and I have very different views on this topic. Messianic Judaism predates your Eastern Orthodoxy. The church in Asia Minor was Messianic who attended synagogue that comprised both gentile converts to Messiah and Jews (SOME OF WHOM) believers.

Acts makes that unmistakably clear.

NO- It does not predate anything. Christ established His Church. Messianic Judaism is Judaizing, a practice prohibited in the scriptures, as per Galatians 2:14. It is attempting to make Gentiles practice Judaism- something that the First Ecumenical Council shown in the book of Acts was against.

As Saint Ignatius (circa 100 AD) said, 'It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.'

Christ means everything. He fulfilled the law. He transformed EVERYTHING. Without Christ, following the Old Testament law is meaningless. The Jews needed/need a Messiah.

 

[seashale76]

Why would anyone want to go to something that reflects a post-first century Jewish tradition instead of that which the Holy Spirit guides in all things?

 

[BukiRob]

NO- It does not predate anything. Christ established His Church. Messianic Judaism is Judaizing, a practice prohibited in the scriptures, as per Galatians 2:14. It is attempting to make Gentiles practice Judaism- something that the First Ecumenical Council shown in the book of Acts was against.

As Saint Ignatius (circa 100 AD) said, 'It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.'

Christ means everything. He fulfilled the law. He transformed EVERYTHING. Without Christ, following the Old Testament law is meaningless. The Jews needed/need a Messiah.

Here we go with people tossing "fulfilled"

With all due respect you don't even know what that means. The word there in the Greek is Pleroo and it DOES NOT MEAN what you think it means.

The problem with folks like you is you will argue with the Word itself because you are unwilling to set aside what you have been taught by man instead of being taught by the word.

This is probably a pointless exercise but I will do it none the less.

What is the context in Matthew chapter 5? (the verse you cling to is Matthew 5:17 in which you erroneously believe that Messiah did away with the Torah.)

Matthew 5 opens with the "beatitudes" In order to understand the NT your grasp of the OT has to be rock solid. Many are shocked to discover that over 1/3rd of the entire NT are OT passages of scripture.

So lets look at Matthew 5:17 17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

1st rule of understanding is you dont get to pick and choose parts of a verse you like and discard those parts you do not like.

Messiah does something very interesting here and that is that he IMMUTABLY LINKS Torah (law) and the PROPHETS. That is very important because Messiah KNEW that this false teaching concerning the Torah would infect and poison his bride like it has today.
You see when you read verse 18 it tells us something those of you who teach this replacement theology and the Torah done away with you cant get away from and that is..... UNTIL ALL is accomplished. Try as you might ALL has NOT been accomplished concerning the OT prophets and prophecy.

Secondly Plerro is the Greek word poorly translated to Fulfill.

If you go to the linear of Matthew 5:17 in the greek you will see strongs 4137 which takes you to the root word Pleroo and in that you will see a specific definition for Matthew 5:17 which states:universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f

Using Strong's definition of the Greek the proper understanding of fulfill here reads like...

Matthew 5:17 17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to cause God's will (as made known in the Torah) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment" . 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

 

[BukiRob]

Why would anyone want to go to something that reflects a post-first century Jewish tradition instead of that which the Holy Spirit guides in all things?

The problem is the heart is deceitfully wicked and men prefer their traditions above the word of G-d.

Let us talk about the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit) Yeshua said that HE would lead (the apostles and followers) in all truth correct? John 16:13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Ps 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Ps 119:160The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.
Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Here are some NT passages as well....

1 Tim 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully
Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

So, if indeed the Spirit is going to lead to all truth, scripture has defined for us what truth is.... Truth is the TORAH

 

[seashale76]

Here we go with people tossing "fulfilled"

With all due respect you don't even know what that means. The word there in the Greek is Pleroo and it DOES NOT MEAN what you think it means.

The problem with folks like you is you will argue with the Word itself because you are unwilling to set aside what you have been taught by man instead of being taught by the word.

This is probably a pointless exercise but I will do it none the less.

What is the context in Matthew chapter 5? (the verse you cling to is Matthew 5:17 in which you erroneously believe that Messiah did away with the Torah.)

Matthew 5 opens with the "beatitudes" In order to understand the NT your grasp of the OT has to be rock solid. Many are shocked to discover that over 1/3rd of the entire NT are OT passages of scripture.

So lets look at Matthew 5:17 17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

1st rule of understanding is you dont get to pick and choose parts of a verse you like and discard those parts you do not like.

Messiah does something very interesting here and that is that he IMMUTABLY LINKS Torah (law) and the PROPHETS. That is very important because Messiah KNEW that this false teaching concerning the Torah would infect and poison his bride like it has today.
You see when you read verse 18 it tells us something those of you who teach this replacement theology and the Torah done away with you cant get away from and that is..... UNTIL ALL is accomplished. Try as you might ALL has NOT been accomplished concerning the OT prophets and prophecy.

Secondly Plerro is the Greek word poorly translated to Fulfill.

If you go to the linear of Matthew 5:17 in the greek you will see strongs 4137 which takes you to the root word Pleroo and in that you will see a specific definition for Matthew 5:17 which states:universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f

Using Strong's definition of the Greek the proper understanding of fulfill here reads like...

Matthew 5:17 17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to cause God's will (as made known in the Torah) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment" . 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

With all due respect, it is you that don't understand. Yes- your effort is pointless- because I don't accept your modern doctrines of man that ignore the scriptures and the faith that was traditioned by the apostles. There is no discrepancy in the Church between its beliefs, practices, and the scriptures. You are still trying to live by the law and are trying to get others to do so instead of becoming part of Christ's Church. Christ has fulfilled the feasts and everything the Old Testament spoke of. You too can experience this life in Christ by becoming baptized into Christ, partaking of the sacraments, and living in Christ's Church. All of the righteous dead of the Old Testament and those of the early Church died in anticipation of what Christ did for us all (i.e. the Jews).

 

[seashale76]

The problem is the heart is deceitfully wicked and men prefer their traditions above the word of G-d.

It is blasphemy to call the Holy Tradition of the Church, that is guided in all things by the Holy Spirit, a wicked tradition of men. God have mercy on you.

 

[BukiRob]

With all due respect, it is you that don't understand. Yes- your effort is pointless- because I don't accept your modern doctrines of man that ignore the scriptures and the faith that was traditioned by the apostles. There is no discrepancy in the Church between its beliefs, practices, and the scriptures. You are still trying to live by the law and are trying to get others to do so instead of becoming part of Christ's Church. Christ has fulfilled the feasts and everything the Old Testament spoke of. You too can experience this life in Christ by becoming baptized into Christ, partaking of the sacraments, and living in Christ's Church. All of the righteous dead of the Old Testament and those of the early Church died in anticipation of what Christ did for us all (i.e. the Jews).

Wrong, wrong. wrong.... WRONG.

I do not LIVE by the law.

Every person who has EVER been or EVER WILL BE saved has been saved the same way.... By Grace through FAITH.

Abraham believed G-d and it was counted as righteousness to him.... Gen 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Paul verifies that Abraham was saved by Faith.

Torah is a matter of OBEDIENCE.... the heart that is rebellous recoils against obedience.

 

[seashale76]

Wrong, wrong. wrong.... WRONG.

I do not LIVE by the law.

Every person who has EVER been or EVER WILL BE saved has been saved the same way.... By Grace through FAITH.

Abraham believed G-d and it was counted as righteousness to him.... Gen 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Paul verifies that Abraham was saved by Faith.

Torah is a matter of OBEDIENCE.... the heart that is rebellous recoils against obedience.

You're just spinning your wheels, because you make no sense to me. You're contradicting yourself at every turn.

Anyway, two quick questions. Do you believe in the Nicene Creed? The Church you love to disparage gave you the New Testament. How do you square that with your beliefs?

 

[BukiRob]

It is blasphemy to call the Holy Tradition of the Church, that is guided in all things by the Holy Spirit, a wicked tradition of men. God have mercy on you.

Judge not lest you be judged. For by the same measure you judge others you yourself shall be judged.

No man has authority over you. Or do you deny the words of messiah himself?

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6 “They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

I do not blaspheme at all I am quoting you scripture. Your issue is with the Word of G-d.... and to accuse a fellow believer of that is an abomination.

 

[seashale76]

Judge not lest you be judged. For by the same measure you judge others you yourself shall be judged.

No man has authority over you. Or do you deny the words of messiah himself?

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6 “They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

I do not blaspheme at all I am quoting you scripture. Your issue is with the Word of G-d.... and to accuse a fellow believer of that is an abomination.

It's kind of hypocritical to accuse me of the very same thing you've done to me in this thread, don't you think?

 

[BukiRob]

You're just spinning your wheels, because you make no sense to me. You're contradicting yourself at every turn.

Anyway, two quick questions. Do you believe in the Nicene Creed? The Church you love to disparage gave you the New Testament. How do you square that with your beliefs?

What are you talking about? I have not made any contradictions at all. You have convinced yourself that observing Torah is to deny Messiah and that is a LIE. Salvation has never, ever occurred by keeping or observing the Torah. Not in Moses time, not today.

You are under some grandiose delusion if you believe that the body is not in error. I would encourage you to read the Revelation.... 6 of the seven churches were in grievous error.

I don't have an issue with the Nicene Creed but, ITS NOT SCRIPTURE. Now if you are going to say to me that "the church through the pope" has the authority of scripture then I will point out to you that this is the VERY same error the Priesthood mad with Israel in the Oral tradition which Peter in Acts 15 so poignantly speaks of as "a YOKE about our necks"

I side with scripture. I try and base my view on what scripture says and I pray that the Father will change my heart so that my walk lines up with what is in scripture.

You do realize that when you stand before the white throne to give an account for your life answers like: well the church taught me... aint gonna fly right? You, me and every other believer is going to answer for what is found in scripture not what your Rabbi, pastor or Priest taught you... It all goes back to the Holy Spirit leading you to all truth... and truth is found IN SCRIPTURE

 

[seashale76]

I just now realized I've been posting in Controversial Theology. No wonder everything sounded so very wrong in this thread. I'm truly sad for some of you.

 

[BukiRob]

It's kind of hypocritical to accuse me of the very same thing you've done to me in this thread, don't you think?

Please, do show me where I have accused you of Blasphemy....

 

[seashale76]

What are you talking about? I have not made any contradictions at all. You have convinced yourself that observing Torah is to deny Messiah and that is a LIE. Salvation has never, ever occurred by keeping or observing the Torah. Not in Moses time, not today.

You are under some grandiose delusion if you believe that the body is not in error. I would encourage you to read the Revelation.... 6 of the seven churches were in grievous error.

I don't have an issue with the Nicene Creed but, ITS NOT SCRIPTURE. Now if you are going to say to me that "the church through the pope" has the authority of scripture then I will point out to you that this is the VERY same error the Priesthood mad with Israel in the Oral tradition which Peter in Acts 15 so poignantly speaks of as "a YOKE about our necks"

I side with scripture. I try and base my view on what scripture says and I pray that the Father will change my heart so that my walk lines up with what is in scripture.

You do realize that when you stand before the white throne to give an account for your life answers like: well the church taught me... aint gonna fly right? You, me and every other believer is going to answer for what is found in scripture not what your Rabbi, pastor or Priest taught you... It all goes back to the Holy Spirit leading you to all truth... and truth is found IN SCRIPTURE

And the scriptures were confirmed by Christ's Church- which is guided in all things by the Holy Spirit. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[BukiRob]

And the scriptures were confirmed by Christ's Church- which is guided in all things by the Holy Spirit. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I see you posting your views.... I do find it interesting that you speak of MEN.... with almost no scripture to support your position.

1 john 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Once again, I will stand on scripture.....

 

[Hank77]

Your calculations are off. You'll be surprised when you see the temple up and running. It's coming.

And it won't be the temple of our God, Yehovah. It will be a desolate place.

 

[Hank77]

I disagree. We have ample examples of grafting in from the beginning.
Exodus 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."
Leviticus 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"
Numbers 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.

The alien (Goyim) could choose to walk upright before Adonai and be obedient to the Father and he was to have the same Torah as the native born Jew. The Goyim did not cease being a gentile but was indeed grafted in... He could choose to become a Jew at some point by becoming circumcised if he was a male... but many did not. David killed such a gentile to steal his wife Bathsheba a sin for which David was harshly judged by G-d.

You and I have very different views on this topic. Messianic Judaism predates your Eastern Orthodoxy. The church in Asia Minor was Messianic who attended synagogue that comprised both gentile converts to Messiah and Jews (SOME OF WHOM) believers.

Acts makes that unmistakably clear. I know its popular to push Jews and Judaism completely out of the picture but that simply does not at all square with the early church history according to scripture. Acts 6:7 7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

So not only were people in Jerusalem along with gentiles coming to faith a "LARGE NUMBER OF PRIESTS" came to faith... this had RADICAL influence and impact on Judaism during the apostolic age.

Of coarse the OT saints are all a members of the same body of Christ. They were waiting for Him to come, they prophesied about Him. They were looking forward to Him as their Redeemer just as we look back at the cross when that same Redeemer gave His life for all of us.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Who owns the Temple Mt. in Jerusalem?

Probably the owner who holds the Title Deed.