• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Jack Chick's View on Catholicism

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
When the Protestant churches begin producing authentic stigmatics, then I will argue with you on the subject.

And who would decide what is an AUTHENTIC stigmata, Monk?

Oh, never mind, probably the Pope would have to declare it so...
 
Upvote 0

Sammy-San

Newbie
May 23, 2013
9,020
848
✟119,589.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Stigmata occur in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches because we encourage holiness, a continued growth in the Holy Spirit, a constant Theosis, and so on. I've seen the "holiness," etc. of Protestant people--even Holiness Pentecostals. Never have I seen ONE that I could compare with Padre Pio or St. Francis. When the Protestant churches begin producing authentic stigmatics, then I will argue with you on the subject.

Do any of Pio or Francis's quotes discuss bibical salvation?

Sadly to me it seems they were deceived by Churchianity.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Out of curiosity, if the remaining councils are not binding, how are they considered ecumenical? And how can you remain in communion with a church while disagreeing over the number of ecumenical councils?

Ecumenical is another word for imperial, meaning that the Emperor or a king or prince can convene it. It does not mean universal or infallible.
 
Upvote 0

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Ecumenical is another word for imperial, meaning that the Emperor or a king or prince can convene it. It does not mean universal or infallible.

So the council in Acts 15, not being convened by an emperor, king, or prince -- cannot be ecumenical, universal, or infallible...
 
  • Informative
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

Sammy-San

Newbie
May 23, 2013
9,020
848
✟119,589.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Stigmata occur in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches because we encourage holiness, a continued growth in the Holy Spirit, a constant Theosis, and so on. I've seen the "holiness," etc. of Protestant people--even Holiness Pentecostals. Never have I seen ONE that I could compare with Padre Pio or St. Francis. When the Protestant churches begin producing authentic stigmatics, then I will argue with you on the subject.

What is your view on this claim on St Francis? Galatians 4: Roman Catholic "Saints" Were No Saints!


St. Francis of Assisi, who may as well be named the precursor to some of today's modern nature worshipping New Agers
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
And how can you remain in communion with a church while disagreeing over the number of ecumenical councils?

It is a case of stability. I grew up RC. When I met Fr. Basil, he was a monk in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. When he moved out here to Phoenix, there was no UO Church in town. Neither the Greek Church or the Russian Church spoke to him, and while there is an Antiochian Orthodox Church in the valley, he was an outsider, and therefore unclean.

I saw what was happening in the Orthodox Churches, and for a while, we investigated the Independent Orthodox churches, but most of them wrote their own liturgies according to their own faiths. (I remember one liturgy beginning, "in the name of the father, the mother, the child, and the holy spirit..." and it went downhill from there. The instability of the Orthodox Churches--even the real ones--simply drove us out.

I then thought of going to an Eastern Catholic Church, and after a lot of prayer, we looked up Fr. Hugo at Dormition of the Mother of God Ukrainian Catholic Church. We liked Fr. Hugo--we still do. But there was a lot of opposition to us, as we were not Ukrainian.

We continued to go there, however, until we met Fr. Peter of St. John of the Desert Melkite Catholic Church. He welcomed us with open arms, and told us that as long as he was pastor, we were members of that church. It has been like that for twelve years. They love us, and we love them. We help out as we can, but frankly, I lost my voice a few years ago, and can't sing. Also, I am in a walker, and Fr. Basil uses a cane and still gets dizzy once in a while.
 
Upvote 0

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
SS - I find that article's definition of "bilocation" as simply "astral projection" to be inadequate.

In a deuterocanonical section of Daniel (what Protestants used to call 'apocryphal' section of Daniel)
the Prophet Habakkuk is grabbed by an angel -- pot of stew and all -- and whisked away to Babylon to the lion's den, where he lowers the stew down to Daniel for his supper

This 'biblical' example of travel akin to bilocation is NOT just astral projection - a pot of food went with it!!

Now the ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE's notes on this -- they have the guts to point out that Habakkuk was maybe a century PRIOR TO DANIEL IN TIME -- AND THIS MIRACULOUS TRANSPORT OF Habakkuk to the lion's den in Babylon...

was not only ACROSS SPACE -- but ACROSS TIME AS WELL !!

Well -- Moses and Elijah on Mt. of Transfiguration -- would their miraculous appearance to talk to Jesus have involved either space and/or time? Both? Neither?
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Brendon, this is a BIT MUCH -- to dismiss THE GREAT SCHISM as merely a "personality conflict" between two individuals?

But it is true. Read The Orthodox Church by Timothy (later Bishop Kallistos) Ware. As he has written quite a few books, including prayer books that the Church uses every day, he can be considered AUTHORITATIVE.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
It MIGHT be, Super, I think Satan can FAKE almost any real "gift" or "sign" whatever

but we can't discredit any valid stigmatas just cuz the Devil can fake it sometimes

Fake Stigmatics usually give themselves away, because their wounds heal naturally.

The following is a report of Padre Pio:Padre Pio of Pietrelcina (1887-1968), who lived at Our Lady of Grace Friary in San Giovanni Rotondo, near Foggia, Italy, for over fifty years, is known for a remarkable distinction unique in the history of the Church: This Franciscan friar bore the five sacred wounds of Christ for over half a century — from September 20, 1918, until his death on September 23, 1968! Nobody in Church history even comes close to this record. (The lay Franciscan stigmatic Therese Neumann probably holds that distinction for women: thirty-six years.) Miraculously, Padre Pio’s wounds completely disappeared the last few days of his life. It was as if God had taken away his wounds because his mission had finally ended. Perhaps the disappearance of the wounds was also another extraordinary sign from God that they were genuine.

Details of first investigation into Padre Pio’s stigmata revealed :

Rome, Italy, Sep 22, 2008 / 12:39 pm (CNA).- In an article published by the L’Osservatore Romano, Francesco Castelli, a biographer of St. Pio of Pietrelcina, has revealed details of the first investigation in 1921 by the Holy Office—now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith—into the life of the Italian priest and the authenticity of his stigmata.

Castelli explained that the recent opening of the archives that contain the information on the first investigations show that it is not true that the Holy Office was suspicious of Padre Pio, but rather that there was admiration and appreciation for him.

In 1921, the Holy Office charged Bishop Carlo Raffaello Rossi, who would later be made cardinal, with visiting Padre Pio to investigate his life and the origin of his stigmata. In his report, Bishop Rossi wrote that Padre Pio “held his head high and was serene, his look lively and sweet, his words gleamed with kindness and sincerity.”

The task that began on June 14 of that year lasted for eight days, during which Bishop Rossi observed Padre Pio in detail. He wrote that he was very gentle with his brothers, beloved by his superiors for being a “great example and not a gossiper.” He spent 10-12 hours a day in the confessional and he celebrated the Mass with “extraordinary devotion.”

Bishop Rossi said the observations were not sufficient and he decided to interview Padre Pio, who responded to 142 questions under oath with his hand on the Gospels. Castelli says his answers almost constituted a complete biography.

Questions such as, “Who gave you the stigmata? For what reason? Were you given a specific mission?” were answered serenely by the Italian saint in the following manner:

“On September 20, 1918 after celebrating Mass, while I was giving thanks in the Choir, I was repeatedly overcome by trembling. Later I became calm again and I saw our Lord as if He were on the cross—but I did not see if He did have a cross—lamenting the lack of response from mankind, especially from those consecrated to Him who are His favorites. He was showing that He was suffering and that He desired to unite souls to His Passion. He invited me to enter into His sufferings and to mediate upon them: and at the same time to concern myself with the health of the brothers. Immediately I felt full of compassion for the sufferings of the Lord and I asked Him what I could do. I heard this voice: ‘I unite you to my Passion’. And immediately, the vision having disappeared, I came to and I saw these signs from which blood was flowing. I did not have them before.”

Castelli said Bishop Rossi went even further. He asked to examine the wounds and as he did so he asked Padre Pio about them. He saw that the wound in his side “changed aspects frequently and at that moment was in the shape of a triangle, never before seen. Regarding the wounds of Padre Pio, he gave me precise and detailed answers explaining in addition that the wounds in his feet and side had a sort of radiant aspect.”

Bishop Rossi concluded that the wounds were not “the work of the devil” nor were they the result of “deceit, fraud or a malicious or evil ability. Much less were they the result of external suggestion, nor do I consider them to be the result of suggestion.” The distinctive elements “of true stigmata were found in those of Padre Pio,” he added. Other details such as his high fevers and perfume-like scents confirmed the veracity of the phenomenon.

Castelli said the first thing that emerges from these investigations is that the “feared Roman dicastery was not, in these circumstances, an enemy of Padre Pio, but rather the complete opposite! Bishop Rossi showed himself to be an absolute inquisitor but he was also a mature man of true valor, devoid of unjustified harshness towards the one he was questioning.”

Thanks to these investigations, the former Holy Office possesses a history of Padre Pio written by his “spiritual father, Benedetto, a document extremely rich in information that up to now had been almost completely ignored.”

Upon writing that after 1939 there is no clear way to tell what happened to the Capuchin friar who died on September 22, 1968, Castelli recalled how Bishop Rossi would remember the saint in his own words: “Padre Pio is a good and exemplary religious, trained in the practice of virtue, given over to piety and perhaps elevated in degrees of prayer that go beyond the external, resplendent in particular with a profound humility and singular simplicity that have never wavered even in the most difficult of times, in which these virtues have been tried in a serious and dangerous way.”


Francesco Castelli is professor of History of the Contemporary Church at the Romano Guardini Institute of Religious Science and Director of the Historical Archives of the Diocese of Taranto.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Have you even read Luther's 95 Theses? You're not making a whole lot of sense. Yes, Luther did not like people paying for indulgences. But do you know what an indulgence is? It is a way to get out of the TEMPORAL punishments--those levied by a king or prince--as opposed to punishments from God. At least, that is the way that they started out.

There are prayers for the dead--whether you seem to think them abominable or not. Our prayers for the dead are for them to be able to continue in Theosis--becoming more like God.

As far as the True Cross, it has been proven that if all the pieces that are extant today were brought together, they wouldn't even make up the wood of the cross beam.

But there are hoaxers, yes. Both in the Catholic Church and outside of it. You are Pentecostal. I have heard of many hoaxes in the Pentecostal Churches, faked cures, limbs being lengthened, goiters removed, etc. Don't think for one instant that the RCC has the patent on PHONY.

Don't know how much of this is legend but thought I would share for sheer tongue in cheek:

Pope Leo X (A.D. 1475-1521) commissioned John Tetzel, a Dominican monk, to travel throughout Germany selling indulgences on behalf of the Church. Tetzel declared that as soon as the coins “clinked” in his money chest, the souls of those for whom the indulgences had been purchased would fly out of purgatory.

These indulgences not only bestowed pardon for sins committed already, they were used to license the commission of future transgressions as well. In the classic volume, The Life and Times of Martin Luther, noted historian Merle D’Aubigne relates an amusing episode relative to this practice.

A certain Saxon nobleman heard John Tetzel proclaiming his doctrine of indulgences, and the gentleman was much aggravated at this perversion of truth. Accordingly, he approached the monk one day and inquired as to whether he might purchase an indulgence for a sin he intended to commit.

“Most assuredly,” replied Tetzel, “I have received full powers from his holiness for that purpose.” After some haggling, a fee of thirty crowns was agreed upon, and the nobleman departed.

Together with some friends, he hid himself in a nearby forest. Presently, as Tetzel journeyed that way, the knight and his mischievous companions fell upon the papal salesman, gave him a light beating, and relieved him of his money, apparently taking no pains to disguise themselves.

Tetzel was enraged by the foul deed and filed suit in the courts. When the nobleman appeared as the defendant, he produced the letter of exemption containing John Tetzel’s personal signature, which absolved the Saxon of any liability. When Duke George (the judge before whom the action was brought) examined the document, exasperated though he was, he ordered the accused to be released.

John Tetzel's Indulgences

Sources
D’Aubigne, J.H. Merle, The Life and Times of Martin Luther (Chicago: Moody, 1955), p. 103.

 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Brendon, this is a BIT MUCH

My name is spelled Brendan, and you may address me as Monk Brendan or Fr. Brendan.

I would never think of spelling your name Antoninus, when you prefer Anto9us. Please, extend to me the same courtesy.
 
Upvote 0

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I do indeed consider Ware/Kallistos as authoritative, Monk Brendan -- I have his new edition, last copyright 1997, and way back in the dark ages an earlier version of it was a college textbook on Christian History at Baylor University, where I was a Methodist in a sea of Baptists

I will peruse his comments on Great Schism

I am sorry you cant sing anymore, Monk Brendan -- I too absent myself from the choir -- and no one understands

I cannot see that well to read music without strongest reading glasses I can get; and I can't look up in them to follow choir director; maybe someday I will get bifocals again, like I used to use to read and watch TV at the same time in

Memory, vision, and hearing are going the way of all flesh
The VA gave me a cane -- I don't use it
My once-Steel-Trap mind is rusting out
and I guess I'll get hearing aid in the future

peace

(edited to get Monk Brendan's name spelled right)
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
And who would decide what is an AUTHENTIC stigmata, Monk?

It usually is decided by at least one MD, usually two or three, plus a couple of priests, at least one bishop. It may not go all the way up to the Pope. However, it can be a long-lasting process to make that decision.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
But I hereby propose the term:
"Jack Chick Protestant"
to be a Protestant with too negative a view of our Catholic brethren

I heartily agree!
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,129
17,440
Florida panhandle, USA
✟930,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Stigmata occur in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches because we encourage holiness, a continued growth in the Holy Spirit, a constant Theosis, and so on. I've seen the "holiness," etc. of Protestant people--even Holiness Pentecostals. Never have I seen ONE that I could compare with Padre Pio or St. Francis. When the Protestant churches begin producing authentic stigmatics, then I will argue with you on the subject.
Forgive me please, but before you claim stigmata among Orthodox Christians, I would appreciate if you would verify that.

As far as I know, stigmata is ... well, let's just say I don't think they are accepted among Orthodox, as far as I know.

Again, forgive me, please but for a point of accuracy, I am sure you don't like when some claim that Catholics do or believe xyz when they really don't - much of the topic of this thread - and I feel the same way about my Church.

And everything I have ever heard is that we would have a different opinion of stigmata.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are you really going to go through his life with a fine toothed comb for each and every miracle? Just because it isn't in the Bible doesn't mean that a gift is not from God. I've heard of women lifting up cars to get to their trapped baby. Yes, adrenaline, but even that is God given.
The way I view miracles not in the NT is to look at them from a NT perspective.

In the NT miracles Glorified Jesus Christ and showed the Power of His Gospel. If the same holds true for post Apostolic miracles, Praise the Lord!
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeaceByJesus
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Do any of Pio or Francis's quotes discuss bibical salvation?

Yes! Do a search on your favorite search engine--mine pulled up 430,000 in less than a second.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0