Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Athée]

Here we haagaive to understand the nature of God. Foreknowledge with God is the same predestination, because God knows the end from the beginning. So where Paul says that God predestined th wicked to be deluded, it also can be read as God allowed it to happen. What is important is to understand how God works to destroy those who persist in loving falsity by the means of delusions. The devil is allowed to "prowl around like a roaring lion looking for someone to destroy." 1 Peter 5;8.

It is the devil who deceives, as per Eve in the garden of Eden. The state of being deluded is the state of being deceived by the devil.

Again I'm just not sure what to do with that. What you are telling me is that when the Bible says, "God sent them a strong delusion" it actually means "God allowed Satan to deceive them". I don't see the justification for this move. Rather it seems to me that your pre-existing belief that God would never deceive someone intentionally, is forcing you into that reading, when the plain text suggests otherwise.

 

[outlawState]

Again I'm just not sure what to do with that. What you are telling me is that when the Bible says, "God sent them a strong delusion" it actually means "God allowed Satan to deceive them". I don't see the justification for this move. Rather it seems to me that your pre-existing belief that God would never deceive someone intentionally, is forcing you into that reading, when the plain text suggests otherwise.

That's because you have to interpret what is written with statements like


Jas 1:13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [fn]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [fn]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

God works through agents, whether angels or demons, who fulfil his purposes on earth and in heaven. Demons are confined to earth, so what God wills in heaven vis-a-vis the wicked is effected by demons on earth. There is the concept of a dual will of God in the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." That is to say God's will in heaven will always be accomplished, including the deception of the wicked by satanic agents, but God's will on earth will only be fulfilled by good men with faith.

 

[Athée]

That's because you have to interpret what is written with statements like


Jas 1:13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [fn]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [fn]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

God works through agents, whether angels or demons, who fulfil his purposes on earth and in heaven. Demons are confined to earth, so what God wills in heaven vis-a-vis the wicked is effected by demons on earth. There is the concept of a dual will of God in the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." That is to say God's will in heaven will always be accomplished, including the deception of the wicked by satanic agents, but God's will on earth will only be fulfilled by good men with faith.

But we aren't talking about temptation but rather deception. I agree that there are times that God uses agents to do the deceiving (more on that later) but in the Thessalonians passage this is not what the text says. Here it says God sent them the strong delusion SO that they would be live the lie. So again no mention of another agent.
Even if there were, I don't see that this solves the problem. Imagine a mob boss telling a henchman that he wants them to go kill target person X. We could agree that the henchman has committed the crime of murder but we would also say that the mob boss was morally accountable as well. In the same way if God actively sends an agent to deceive someone, then God is responsible for the deception.

 

[Serving Zion]

I don't see that this solves the problem.

Would you mind restating what the problem is, as you see it?

 

[outlawState]

In the same way if God actively sends an agent to deceive someone, then God is responsible for the deception.

Yes, God is responsible, but so is the human for chossing to love wickedness. It is a case of God establishing what might be termed a natural justice regime.

God himself wills in heaven that the wicked be deceived by their love of wickedness, so that wickedness may be judged truly wicked. It is an everlasting decree. Frequently it is the inability of the wicked to stop being wicked that procures their final punishment or exposure.

Pro 21:12
The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.

 

[JoeP222w]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

A couple of things.

- God's truth is not determined by popular vote or consensus agreement.
- Although indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the believer in Jesus Christ still battles with sin their entire life and living in a sin cursed world. Through the process of Sanctification, God works in the heart of the believer throughout their entire life to know His truth more than when they first became believers.
- There are some who claim to be Christians, who simply are not. They are either false converts, they are deceived, or they intentionally deceiving others.
- There are those who do not understand the principle of exegeting (interpreting) scripture correctly. i.e. they ignore context, they cherry pick, they misread the passage, they are bound by their traditions other than the plain reading of the text, they have no concept of the historical context, they completely miss the authorial intent.
- They are using a really bad translation of the Bible.
- Christians, myself included, struggle with pride and giving others grace, in hearing their perspective on scripture honestly and humbly.

 

[Athée]

Yes, God is responsible, but so is the human for chossing to love wickedness. It is a case of God establishing what might be termed a natural justice regime.

God himself wills in heaven that the wicked be deceived by their love of wickedness, so that wickedness may be judged truly wicked. It is an everlasting decree. Frequently it is the inability of the wicked to stop being wicked that procures their final punishment or exposure.

Pro 21:12
The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.

If God is acting to deceive a mere human, what chance do they have of coming to and loving truth?

 

[outlawState]

If God is acting to deceive a mere human, what chance do they have of coming to and loving truth?

They have every chance as freedom of choice is what is given to every man. Love of sin is an attitude of mind, and yet the mind is what can be made responsive to God. The mind can be applied to anything we choose. We can use it to understand the gospel and take pleasure is what is right and good, or we can use it to delight in sin. If we delight in sin, and its deceptions, we will be lost to the gospel. As the Old Testament says,

Deu 30:14
No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Deu 30:15
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

Deu 30:16
For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess

Deu 30:17
But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,

Deu 30:18
I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

Deu 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Deu 30:20
and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Chriliman]

But we aren't talking about temptation but rather deception. I agree that there are times that God uses agents to do the deceiving (more on that later) but in the Thessalonians passage this is not what the text says. Here it says God sent them the strong delusion SO that they would be live the lie. So again no mention of another agent.
Even if there were, I don't see that this solves the problem. Imagine a mob boss telling a henchman that he wants them to go kill target person X. We could agree that the henchman has committed the crime of murder but we would also say that the mob boss was morally accountable as well. In the same way if God actively sends an agent to deceive someone, then God is responsible for the deception.

Consider the possibility that you're understanding the meaning incorrectly. Here's the YLT, which I use often to get at the actual meaning of scripture as it's literally meant to be understood.

"10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,

11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

12 that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness."

So here it seems clear to me that we have a cause and an effect. The cause is their believing the lie and the effect is God sending them a working of delusion, which simply means their works will be delusional since they believe a lie and this is what God decrees for them.

 

[Athée]

They have every chance as freedom of choice is what is given to every man. Love of sin is an attitude of mind, and yet the mind is what can be made responsive to God. The mind can be applied to anything we choose. We can use it to understand the gospel and take pleasure is what is right and good, or we can use it to delight in sin. If we delight in sin, and its deceptions, we will be lost to the gospel. As the Old Testament says,

Deu 30:14
No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Deu 30:15
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

Deu 30:16
For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess

Deu 30:17
But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,

Deu 30:18
I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

Deu 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Deu 30:20
and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I agree that there appear to be choices to be made in the bible, but that was not my question. The question was, if God is trying to decide someone what chance do they have?

 

[Athée]

Consider the possibility that you're understanding the meaning incorrectly. Here's the YLT, which I use often to get at the actual meaning of scripture as it's literally meant to be understood.

"10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,

11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

12 that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness."

So here it seems clear to me that we have a cause and an effect. The cause is their believing the lie and the effect is God sending them a working of delusion, which simply means their works will be delusional since they believe a lie and this is what God decrees for them.

No offense friend but that seems like a pretty terrible translation, done more to cover up this problem than by any attempt to faithfully transmit the text. Looks to me like motivated reasoning by the translators but by all means convince me I am mistaken about that.

 

[Chriliman]

No offense friend but that seems like a pretty terrible translation, done more to cover up this problem than by any attempt to faithfully transmit the text. Looks to me like motivated reasoning by the translators but by all means convince me I am mistaken about that.

I'd be glad to. Give me some time to compile the original language and show how the YLT attempts to stay as true as possible to the original literal meaning of the original language. It's quite useful for finding the true meaning of things. Look for my post in the next few days as I'm busy at the moment.

 

[FireDragon76]

The search for truth is a deeply personal thing in this day and age. Obviously Christians disagree about matters of biblical interpretation- some of them significant matters that are not trivial. The easiest explanation from a Christian perspective is because we are sinners prone to error.

In the end, as a mainline Lutheran, I believe this is a matter of personal faith more than certain knowledge. we take a leap of faith in the end and trust in the Holy Spirit to guide us to the truth. I believe study of Church history will be a good guide helping you figure out your way in understanding why there are so many interpretations of the Scriptures. The principle of Vincent of Lerins is always a good rough guide in figuring out what orthodoxy is, "that which was believed in all places at all times by all".

 

[WannaWitness]

I'm not sure if this would be the answer the OP is seeking, but my best guess as to why Christians disagree with one another is it's simply human nature - we all are going to disagree, and Christians can and will disagree with each other in something. There is respectful disagreement (agreeing to disagree), but there are also disagreements that exist where one believer might accuse other fellow believers of being "lukewarm" or "not really saved" (or at least strongly imply such) just because their convictions differ. This is what Romans 14 covers... not on things that are truly sinful according to the Bible, but secondary issues which some may believe to be sin and others not (such as joking, watching TV or listening to non-Christian music).

Well, I gave the why from my perspective as best I could explain it. Now I will attempt to show the how (as in, how can believers respectfully agree to disagree in theological matters). It is something that is hard to explain (aside from pointing to Romans 14), so this link covers this topic in more detail (for those who may be interested):

How Can We Agree to Disagree on Theological Issues?

More links with (what I believe to be) helpful info (for those who may be interested):

When Christians Disagree

When Mature Believers Disagree on Secondary Doctrines

I am not seeking debate (number one, I understand this is not a debate section here, and number two, I'm simply not a debating-type), and I sincerely apologize if this is not the information the OP is seeking. I am merely attempting to help in the best way I know how, and that is by giving an honest shot at an answer from my personal experience and perspective, along with providing what I hope to be helpful resources regarding the topic on which the OP wishes to gain insight.

Love to you all!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="WannaWitness, post: 71150039, member: 82997"]I'm not sure if this would be the answer the OP is seeking, but my best guess as to why Christians disagree with one another is it's simply human nature - we all are going to disagree, and Christians can and will disagree with each other in something.[/QUOTE

Where would you expect Christians to agree together in union with Jesus ? (in harmony, joyously and freely and willingly)

(not according to human nature, but as new creations in Christ)

 

[pius463]

Human are very creative and mostly have self interest. Read Matthew 11:12.
John 16:12-14 say that the Holy Spirit is supposed to listen to Jesus' words. What happens to the Churches and us? Mostly we are discussing about other than Jesus' words.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But we aren't talking about temptation but rather deception. I agree that there are times that God uses agents to do the deceiving (more on that later) but in the Thessalonians passage this is not what the text says. Here it says God sent them the strong delusion SO that they would be live the lie. So again no mention of another agent.
Even if there were, I don't see that this solves the problem. Imagine a mob boss telling a henchman that he wants them to go kill target person X. We could agree that the henchman has committed the crime of murder but we would also say that the mob boss was morally accountable as well. In the same way if God actively sends an agent to deceive someone, then God is responsible for the deception.

Deception perhaps, but just and righteous.
Perhaps free will even - choosing -
with allowing them to believe their OWN DELUSION. See?
God gave them a chance to know the truth,
but they continually rejected Him.
So He let them go on believing what they chose to believe themselves.

In another place similar, I forget where,

God tells them plainly - okay, go ahead and believe your idols.
Trust your gold or silver or other god.

Then on the day of judgment , you can call on your god to deliver you , to save you. (even though their god is not alive and can do nothing to help them, never did, never could).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Human are very creative and mostly have self interest. Read Matthew 11:12.
John 16:12-14 say that the Holy Spirit is supposed to listen to Jesus' words. What happens to the Churches and us? Mostly we are discussing about other than Jesus' words.

Admitted condition of most of the world and probably most churches.

Seek the truth instead - find an assembly that talks with Jesus, about Jesus, about what Jesus does every day,
instead of "other than Jesus' words" as you said.

It might take a while to find. God says seek and keep seeking (the truth), and you will know the truth(no doubting, no lie),
and the truth will set you free.

 

[WannaWitness]

QUOTE="WannaWitness, post: 71150039, member: 82997"]I'm not sure if this would be the answer the OP is seeking, but my best guess as to why Christians disagree with one another is it's simply human nature - we all are going to disagree, and Christians can and will disagree with each other in something.[/QUOTE

Where would you expect Christians to agree together in union with Jesus ? (in harmony, joyously and freely and willingly)

(not according to human nature, but as new creations in Christ)

I see what you're saying, and I am in agreement. Christians should be in harmony with one another in the common bond for the love of the Lord and, as you pointed out, new creations in Christ. However, that was not what the OP was asking. Maybe "human nature" was the wrong choice of words on my part. What I meant was that everybody disagrees, and even Christians disagree with one another when it comes to denominational or personal differences. Those secondary issues on which convictions vary among believers (and often, they will - don't say they can't). It's just that Romans 14 calls for Christians to be in harmony as best they can, despite "doubtful disputations" (v. 1), which simply means "secondary issues" - to realize that God speaks to us, His children, as the unique individuals that we are, to not one-up one another regarding what versions of the Bible to study/not study, whether or not women should wear pants, and so on, and to agree to disagree on such issues while being in harmony regarding our common bond in Christ.

I hope this cleared up for you what I was trying to say. You might want to check out the links in my last post for more food for thought on this from Biblical perspectives - if you so desire.

Again, I wish not to debate; just providing some insight as to why Christians disagree (and other info along those lines).

God bless, and the best to you, yeshuaslavejeff.

 

[Serving Zion]

I agree that there appear to be choices to be made in the bible, but that was not my question. The question was, if God is trying to decide someone what chance do they have?

Athée! .. are you still hanging in there?!! .. I found this thread deserving of a review, and my thoughts for you, on this unresolved matter, is what Jesus said "the one who sins is a slave to sin, and a slave does not abide in the house forever. But a son abides forever, so if the son is to set you free, then you will indeed be free.", so we see that there are many who are slaves of sin, in the same household as the son. Jesus also spoke about the freedom that He can grant us when He said "you are my disciples if you keep my commandments. Then you will know the truth, and the truth is what will set you free".. so here you have some answer for your question, about how it is possible for a person to escape the trap of the delusion - through loving the truth enough. Furthermore, Jesus tells us in this, that if we know what His commandments are and do not keep them, then we are not His disciples and we do not come to know the truth that sets us free.

So whatever it is that keeps us from doing that which we know Jesus expects us to do, that is the sin that keeps us from the truth that sets us free - just as 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about, they become subject to some delusion that brings them into judgement because they delighted in wickedness rather than loving the truth that would save them.

Another pertinent scripture to that effect, is 1 Corinthians 10:13 : "No temptation has taken hold of you except that which is common to man" (this is those who are not able to keep His commandments, some temptation has taken hold of them), "He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can handle" (that is the very answer to your question: if God is trying to deceive someone, what chance to they have? - and the answer is, that they must really love the truth more than whatever it is that is tempting them. ".. but He will also provide a means of escape so that you may be able to endure" .. and this word "endure" is a recurring theme in Christianity - that the world (our spiritual adversary) is always trying to knock us off balance so that we cannot remain in good standing with God (consider Luke 4:13 and John 14:30-31), and only by enduring the trials and tribulations it brings against us, by getting to the end faithfully with good conscience in His view according to our love of the truth, then we will see God's salvation (Adonai is righteous - He loves justice. The upright will see His face - Psalms 11:5-7).