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Jack Chick's View on Catholicism

Monk Brendan

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As for God having a sense of humor - I find it interesting when people make this claim because I've never seen any evidence of it.

God has a sense of humor. Seeing as how we have a sense of humor, and we are made in God's image, then He must have put it in us. Besides, ever see a giraffe? "Let Us make an animal that will want to eat the leaves at the top of trees. But let Us make it earthbound, with no ability to climb those trees. So, We will stretch its legs cover it with spots, and give it a long, silly neck!"
 
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Monk Brendan

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I never kicked anybody out of the body of Christ. You're lying. Nobody in the Bible prayed to St. Stephen or St. James after they died. The Bible says necromancy (talking to dead people) is forbidden.

J-Man, you're getting a little intense, now. Take a deep breath and settle down.
 
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Monk Brendan

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(Maybe even - shudder - ludefisk!)

I've caught you! You are Scandinavian, and you live in Minnesota or one of the other enclaves of Swedishness around America. I grew up in of them.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I didn't attack anybody. I simply stated some historical facts.

Sorry, but anything you got from Jack Chick is false, and to use his tracts to try to tear down Catholics IS an attack.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I never said that anybody was not allowed.

You misunderstand. This says that SAYING that anyone, whether member or non member (or group of people--including Catholics) is not Christian is not allowed
 
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Monk Brendan

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I didn't flame anybody either. The only one doing any goading is you.

And here, again, you misunderstand. I was not goading you, I was pointing out the rules. Please follow the rules, and don't try to justify yourself.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I didn't "attack" anybody. I simply listed some facts I found in some historical books that did NOT include Chick tracts.

Then list the historical books, and not Chick Tracts!
 
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Monk Brendan

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There were good reasons for the reformation by the reformers against the Catholicism of their day.

I am a student of history--especially Church history, and while I admit that SOME of the excesses of the bishops and abbots, priests and so on were wrong, the TRUTH of the Catholic faith is NOT wrong, and did NOT need reforming.
 
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Albion

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As for God having a sense of humor - I find it interesting when people make this claim because I've never seen any evidence of it.
Jesus made a joke out of Peter's name, didn't he? (Rocky, so I think I'll just use you in laying the foundation for my church.)
I am a student of history--especially Church history, and while I admit that SOME of the excesses of the bishops and abbots, priests and so on were wrong, the TRUTH of the Catholic faith is NOT wrong, and did NOT need reforming.
In 1500 it certainly did need reforming. Today, people live under entirely different conditions and have many churches to choose from, the institutional church is nowhere near as intimidating as once was the case, and half the parishioners don't believe anything that they disagree with. They still think they're "good Catholics."

They naturally tend to think in vague terms about an earlier era. But reform had been in the air for some time and even Catholic historians can admit that the Papal Church of the late Renaissance period was far gone from what it ought to have been and, arguably, once was.
 
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Vicomte13

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I've caught you! You are Scandinavian, and you live in Minnesota or one of the other enclaves of Swedishness around America. I grew up in of them.

It is true - I am part Sami - and I grew up in Michigan.
 
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Monk Brendan

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You do realize Scofield and Darby died before Alberto Rivera was born?

Thank you. I wanted to make that observation but I didn't want to be a nag.
 
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Zayin7

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Probably no Scriptural ref that most Protestants would accept.

The classic OT Catholic go to verse:
2 Mac 12:39-46
Next day, with Judas at their head, they went back to recover the bodies of the slain, for burial among their own folk in their fathers’ graves; 40 and what found they? Each of the fallen was wearing, under his shirt, some token carried away from the false gods of Jamnia. Here was defiance of the Jewish law, and none doubted it was the cause of their undoing; 41 none but praised the Lord for his just retribution, that had brought hidden things to light; 42 and so they fell to prayer, pleading that the sin might go unremembered.43 Then he would have contribution made; a sum of twelve thousand silver pieces he levied, and sent it to Jerusalem, to have sacrifice made there for the guilt of their dead companions. Was not this well done and piously? Here was a man kept the resurrection ever in mind; 44 he had done fondly and foolishly indeed, to pray for the dead, if these might rise no more, that once were fallen! 45 And these had made a godly end; could he doubt, a rich recompense awaited them? 46 A holy and wholesome thought it is to pray for the dead, for their guilt’s undoing.

Generally accepted by many older Churches as condolencse to a family, praise for the works of the departed and ending in a prayer for recently departed brother, a prayer for him to find mercy with the Lord ("when that day comes" meaning on Judgment day).
2 Tim 1:16-18
16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus;[3] often enough he revived my spirits. Instead of being ashamed of a prisoner’s acquaintance, 17 he sought me out when he was in Rome, and succeeded in finding me. 18 The Lord grant that he may find mercy with his Lord when that day comes; what he did for me in Ephesus I have no need to tell thee.​

The rest from Scripture are less direct and most Protestors may scoff. Jesus making ref to forgiveness of sins mentions both "in this world" and the "in world to come". A prayer that the deceased find mercy is in essence and of necessity that they have forgiveness of sins. The fact Saint Paul could be seen as admonishing the manner but not the "thought"(like the OT passage above) of doing something (like pray) for the dead when the Saint spoke about "Baptism for the dead", this is at least evidence that people believed it possible to be able to do things that would benefit the dead.

The support from tradition is much stronger, beginning with the most ancient of Liturgies all having a prayer for the departed included one of few things that seems universal to all ancient Liturgies of the Mass - also something still found at every Mass conducted today. Some of those ancient versions included specific pleas, like Saint Paul's, for the remission of sins. Which further supports a very early and universal establishment of a practice in the whole Church everywhere without objection (doesn't happen a lot), which would also be odd absent appeal to Apostolic teaching on it, and that lends further credence to the traditional understanding of NT references mentioned.
This is evidence only that the passage is written in the book of maccabees .
It proves nothing to sustain the false doctrine not found in holy inerrant script.
You may as well quote little jack Horner sat in a corner.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Wow never heard of that one. Bizarre.

The Superior General of the Society of Jesus was sometimes called "The Black Pope" because, it is said, he had a lot of influence over the pope of the day. It is not true.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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This is evidence only that the passage is written in the book of maccabees .
It proves nothing to sustain the false doctrine not found in holy inerrant script.
You may as well quote little jack Horner sat in a corner.
Said people endorsing Jack Chic no less. As I said, not likely anything a Protestant would accept. The problem there is it is not simply a matter of rejecting books, there is a whole boat load of tradition obvious in the recorded history of the early Church being rejected as well.

And those difficulties obviously apparent in the dancing around the various NT references I made, with Protestant theologians even referring to some of those as "difficult" passages. No offense, many Christians also reject it and that was very clearly said in my post. Just pointing out that given all the tradition evident from the known record, the supposition that the people Saint Paul was writing to about "baptism for the dead" lacked such beliefs seems highly suspect given what it appears they were doing.

That is true whether on believes they should not have been doing that or not, because the intention of being able to do something for the benefit of the dead is clearly present whether they were doing it wrong or not. So clearly the idea that we can do "something" dates to very beginnings of the Church and it is not clear at all that Saint Paul's comments means "no, we can do nothing". In light of those beliefs being clearly present very early on among Christians, God's own Words, that SOME sins cannot be addressed in the "next life" begs the questions which sins can. In that context praying the departed find such forgiveness would seen not just reasonable but a good thing for the living to be doing. Which is exactly what the commander in the OT book is shown praying for. A prayer for men he viewed having given their lives for God's cause that he should both hope and pray they be forgiven for the sins they clearly went to their death holding (idolatry). I have difficulty seeing what is wrong in having such a hope for someone else and praying that they might find mercy for their sin, and so eternal peace instead of Hell.

So, no it is not just a matter of rejecting the books that most of the early Christians relied and quoted from. We even have NT references to some of those same books indicating at least a validation that that particular version of the Jewish OT was not just the source, but was the version in use by them when they wrote the NT. Again, not saying any Protestant must accept this teaching and these statement are "proof" they should, just saying it is a much bigger matter than just simply rejecting a few OT books 1500 years or so later.
 
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Monk Brendan

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And learn to laugh at camels, because they are very funny creatures.

I remember one time I was touring in the San Diego Zoo, and the guide had said something about a camel that appears to be dead, but he's not, he just likes the sun. Well, we came to the camel enclosure, and sure enough, there was this big dead camel lying down, feet out to one side. Then he moved. The bus broke out in laughter.
 
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Zayin7

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Said people endorsing Jack Chic no less. As I said, not likely anything a Protestant would accept. The problem there is it is not simply a matter of rejecting books, there is a whole boat load of tradition obvious in the recorded history of the early Church being rejected as well.

And those difficulties obviously apparent in the dancing around the various NT references I made, with Protestant theologians even referring to some of those as "difficult" passages. No offense, many Christians also reject it and that was very clearly said in my post. Just pointing out that given all the tradition evident from the known record, the supposition that the people Saint Paul was writing to about "baptism for the dead" lacked such beliefs seems highly suspect given what it appears they were doing.

That is true whether on believes they should not have been doing that or not, because the intention of being able to do something for the benefit of the dead is clearly present whether they were doing it wrong or not. So clearly the idea we can do "something" dates to very beginnings of the Church and it is not clear at all that Saint Paul's comments means "no, we can do nothing".

So, no it is not just a matter of rejecting the books that most of the early Christians relied and quoted from. We even have NT references to some of those same books indicating at least a validation that that particular version of the Jewish OT was not just the source, but was the version in use by them when they wrote the NT. Again, not saying any Protestant must accept this teaching and these statement are "proof" they should, just saying it is a much bigger matter than just simply rejecting a few OT books 1500 years or so later.
Well.having followed the thread closely .I'm honest I see the tag "Catholic ' and due to past experience go on to ignore most of what they waffle on about because it's tired old rhetoric repeating traditions on traditions and almost never adheres to scripture in its full context.

As for baptizing the dead..he meant us ..those who were dead in their trespass and sin ..that's all of us before we are made alive again in Christ. Together with Christ.
I don't endorse chick what's his name. Just agreed with a certain post and disagreed with another.
Now I'm unsubscribing .
 
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DrBubbaLove

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I remember one time I was touring in the San Diego Zoo, and the guide had said something about a camel that appears to be dead, but he's not, he just likes the sun. Well, we came to the camel enclosure, and sure enough, there was this big dead camel lying down, feet out to one side. Then he moved. The bus broke out in laughter.
Another comedic example from Divine Comedy store. As is the ability of some camels to extrude part of their digestive track and let it hang in a rather disgusting looking bag from their mouth. Rather showing we are what we eat perhaps or the idea some are led by their stomachs - maybe am struggling at comedic expression here I guess.
 
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