Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

[miknik5]

By the way Mary

I'm Catholic

But I'm CHRISTIAN first

 

[stuart lawrence]

Why would you call them "unsaved"??
Is that your call - or is it GOD's??

Pretty arrogant of you to assume that you can read their hearts . . .

According to your church you are not in a saved state until you have been baptised in water.
This, if true would mean people who are unsaved can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues( Acts ch 10)
Who led your church to believe that?

Purgatory

You sin in your body/ flesh. Your flesh/ body does not enter heaven( 1cor15:50)
So why would your flesh need to be purged to enter heaven when it isn't going there?

You are in a saved state when the Holy Spirit enters your life. Scripture proves you do not have to be baptised in water before the Holy Spirit enters your life
The Holy Spirit does NOT dwell in unsaved people!

 

[MarysSon]

<staff edit>
These title were ALL given by GOD:
- Jacob was given the TITLE of "Israel" (Gen. 32:28)??
- Abraham was given the TITLE of "Rock" (Isa. 51:1-2)??
- Mary given the TITLE of "Kecharitomene" (Like 1:34)??
- Simon was given the TITLE of "Rock" (Matt. 16:18)??

Now - please explain how these are a "bad" thing in the eyes of God . . .

 

[miknik5]

We are to love GOD with all our heart with all our mind and with all our strength and we are to love our neighbor as our own soul

One who loves their neighbor as their own soul desires that he be reconciled to GOD and he doesn't stand over GOD's judgement or HIS MERCY deciding for himself who is and who is not worthy to hear THE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL

 

[MarysSon]

By the way. All the people born of and led by HIS SPIRIT

ARE THE CHURCH

Show me where the BIBLE says that. Show me where the Bible speaks of people who reject the visible Church are are still part of it.

Chapter and Verse, please.

 

[stuart lawrence]

<staff edit>
You are made righteous when you accept Christ as your saviour. Your righteousness is faith in Christ, not your own personal goodness. You sin in your flesh, your flesh cannot enter heaven:
But if Christ is in you your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness
Rom8:10

For it is by grace you HAVE BEEN saved, through faith, and This not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast
Eph2:8&9

The true church is people who stand on the bible.

 

[stuart lawrence]

<staff edit>
But back to the question in the title of the thread.
If you have to be baptised in water to be in a saved state, this means the unsaved can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues( Acts ch10)

Do you believe Tha is possible?

Its a simple question, that only needs a simple answer

 

[miknik5]

Show me where the BIBLE says that. Show me where the Bible speaks of people who reject the visible Church are are still part of it.

Chapter and Verse, please.

Ephesians. Alll of it for starters

 

[MarysSon]

Ephesians. Alll of it for starters

Chapter and Verse, please.

 

[stuart lawrence]

<staff edit>
In the book of Acts Cornelius and his household received the holy spirit as the disciples did at pentecost and spoke in tongues BEFORE( before) they were baptised in water.

Was Cornelius and his household in a saved, or unsaved state when the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues?

 

[stuart lawrence]

<staff edit>
The unsaved CANNOT receive the Holy Spirit.
A definition of a Christian is:
Someone in whom the Holy Spirit resides

 

[seashale76]

Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

Why ask this? Any time this topic comes up, it sounds like nothing more than someone searching for an excuse to not get baptized (just like those that try to find ways to not attend church and take communion). You are told to do it in scripture. If you can then you should.

Baptism is not a work that you do but it is a work of God that we submit to. Baptism with water is immediately followed by Chrismation (which is the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit). As the Nicene Creed says (repeating scripture): 'we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins'.

 

[mark kennedy]

Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

I'm big on justification by grace through faith so that's obviously apart from baptism. That said you should know something about this rite of Christian passage before dismissing it as unnecessary or superficial. Did you know that brides were baptized in their wedding dress? The old life as a child and a single woman was over, shes literally burying the old life and rising up to be a wife and a mother. Jesus was baptized, he clearly didn't need to be saved, he was salvation. As a man his old life as a carpenter was over, I'll wager he never picked up another hammer or chisel again. Its actually symbolic of a funeral, if you haven't died to sin there is no point in burying you and certainly no power to raise you up to walk in newness of life.

Lets not be childish about this, there is no actual commandment is Scripture to be baptized, in the great commission at the end of Matthew's Gospel the Apostles are told to baptize disciples. This word for disciple in the Greek is the third most common in the New Testament, only the terms for 'Christ' and 'slave' are used more often.

Jesus described salvation as coming to the human heart like a seed to soil. If the devil doesn't a steal it away from unbelief. If it doesn't fall on shallow around where it withers at the first challenge. If the cares of this life and the deceitfulness of riches doesn't chock it out it bears fruit. Before any of these things happen the seed has to fall to the ground, its buried and it dies. A very common metaphor for repentance in the New Testament is death, baptism is the funeral. Its no more necessary to be baptized to be saved then its necessary to have a funeral to be dead.

My favorite example is the thief on the cross was in heaven with Christ the same day he died, he certainly had no opportunity to be dunked. In Acts 10 Peter preaches that of Christ do all the prophets speak and all who believe are justified. That word justification is another very common New Testament word, its usually translated righteousness. In that passage its translated justified but more literally it means, 'made righteous'. This is before water baptism, of course after they are born again they have died to sin so the proper thing to do is bury them.

No I don't think its anymore necessary to be baptized in eider to be saved then it is to have a marriage ceremony in order to be married. That doesn't mean I'm opposes to the ceremony.

[edited to add: this post took required significant editing. I posted it with a cell phone with a ridiculously bad spell checker. Guess that's what happens when you buy the cheapest LG phone in the store]

 

[Philip_B]

Its no more nessacary to be baptised to be saved then its nessacary to have a funeral to be dead.

And yet there is a natural progression and association - as attested in scripture - which makes perfect sense. A wise old priest friend of mind used to declare:

There are three B's in being Christian:

• Believe
• Belong
• Behave

I see Baptism as part of the belonging B, and I think the maxim holds good and equates with your understanding, indeed your post reminded me of it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

<staff edit>
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit was in Cornelius before he was baptised In water.
Therefore, he and his household were In Christ, and Christ in them prior to them being baptised in water.

 

[miknik5]

<staff edit>The Catholic Church does not verbally encourage or discourage its parish to read THE WORD of GOD

I didn't mean that they verbally discourage but they do not instruct that it is very IMPORTANT to know THE WORD of GOD for oneself either

They don't but should mention to its parishioners that they should

And they don't

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes. The Catholic Church does not verbally encourage or discourage its parish to read THE WORD of GOD

I didn't mean that they verbally discourage but they do not instruct that it is very IMPORTANT to know THE WORD of GOD for oneself either

They don't but should mention to its parishioners that they should

And they don't

Indeed, they stopped the ordinary folk from reading it for a long time in history

 

[Philip_B]

Indeed, they stopped the ordinary folk from reading it for a long time in history

I think that we should note that it is no longer generally the case. It is true that in the mix of worship and bible study it seems that the Catholic Church leans to the worship side. However if you then look at the offices (breviary) you come to appreciate the volume of scripture being used for personal consideration and reflection on a daily basis. The field and flavour of that is no doubt different to the field and flavour of the weekly bible studies attended by many in the Churches of the Reformation Traditions in addition to Sunday worship, and along with a raft of personal bible reading plans that are available, and the preaching in these traditions has a tendency to be more exegetical (and often exclusively so), whereas congregations in the Catholic Traditions are more likely exposed to a wider range of preaching genres.

I know I heard it said that it took Vatican 2 for the Catholic Church to discover the Bible it had been preaching for nearly 2000 years. That is possibly a little harsh, though many are excited and pleased to see the reawakened biblical emphasis in the tradition. One wonders what the reformation might have looked like if Vatican 2 had happened in 1500.

 

[mark kennedy]

And yet there is a natural progression and association - as attested in scripture - which makes perfect sense. A wise old priest friend of mind used to declare:

There are three B's in being Christian:

• Believe
• Belong
• Behave

I see Baptism as part of the belonging B, and I think the maxim holds good and equates with your understanding, indeed your post reminded me of it.

Wow thats so interesting that you world associate baptism with belonging. I dealt with this years ago, and a Bible College teacher I used to know world tell me, baptism means, 'identification with'. Apparently the early church did not allow the unbaptized to participate in the Lords Supper. You were not considered a member until then. Belonging to, identification with....hmmmm.....it fits.

 

[miknik5]

Indeed, they stopped the ordinary folk from reading it for a long time in history

Thank you for confirming