Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

[MarysSon]

I wonder if we brought all these outward groups together if they all profess. ONE FOUNDATION

Since there only is ONE FOUNDATION

Well, you guys will be celebrating 500 years of confusion and splintering this year.
Maybe you should take a poll among your fellow Protestants . . .

 

[MarysSon]

That group of people born and led by HIS SPIRIT are the CHURCH

And that is not limited to an outward structural church building

WHO said anything about a building??

The Church is NOT the individual believer. The Church is NOT thousands of gaggles of perpetually-splintering and disjointed believers.

The Church is united as ONE (John 17:20-23, 1 Cor. 12). The Church is a VISIBLE entity - a city on a hill that cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14-16). The Church is the Body of Christ.

THAT is what is being led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[MarysSon]

I find the statement disappointing, for a number of reasons. Firstly the statement is couched in the past tense. Given that it was not the Orthodox Churches but the Roman Church that changed the Creed of the Oecumenical Councils unilaterally, it is also, and perhaps even more consistent with history, to suggest that the Roman Church was once part of the Catholic Church.

I presume from the tenor of the post all other Christian Traditions are to be simply dismissed as protestant sects, which in my mind is a limited and blinkered view of reality.

My final statement is quite simply this, we are called to be One in Christ, One Body in Christ, One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which if far more profound than a call that we all be one in opinion. The real opinion that matters is the Creed of the 1st Council of Constantinople (381)

Where do you get the idea that I lump the Orthodox Churches with Protestantism??
I plainly said that they were one of the lungs of the Church, as St. John Paul the Great said. The split was largely a matter Authority - not doctrine, unlike the splintering that took place some 500 years later.

 

[Philip_B]

Where do you get the idea that I lump the Orthodox Churches with Protestantism??
I plainly said that they were one of the lungs of the Church, as St. John Paul the Great said. The split was largely a matter Authority - not doctrine, unlike the splintering that took place some 500 years later.

Oh! I don't know. I probably read what you wrote. I suspect I have a different view of Anglicanism to you as well, which is why I don't want to know what your think. And by the way I don't believe that is what I said anyway.

And which you contend that the Great Schism was about authority and not doctrine, that view would not be held by everyone, and I certainly see some significant doctrinal issues bring raised by the insertion of the filioque, of which how authority is exercised in the Church is but one.

 

[stuart lawrence]

WHO said anything about a building??

The Church is NOT the individual believer. The Church is NOT thousands of gaggles of perpetually-splintering and disjointed believers.

The Church is united as ONE (John 17:20-23, 1 Cor. 12). The Church is a VISIBLE entity - a city on a hill that cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14-16). The Church is the Body of Christ.

THAT is what is being led by the Holy Spirit.

But are you united as one with the NT church?

Beliefs change over 2,000 years, things get added, other things get ignored.

I doubt you are as one with NT church.

Lets see.

Do you believe an unsaved person can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost?

 

[miknik5]

Well, you guys will be celebrating 500 years of confusion and splintering this year.
Maybe you should take a poll among your fellow Protestants . . .

Nope

There won't be any splintering for those who have their feet planted firmly on THE FOUNDATION

Just as HE promised

 

[miknik5]

There might be confusion however for those who dont have their feet planted firmly on THE ROCK

Which....isn't Peter

 

[miknik5]

WHO said anything about a building??

The Church is NOT the individual believer. The Church is NOT thousands of gaggles of perpetually-splintering and disjointed believers.

The Church is united as ONE (John 17:20-23, 1 Cor. 12). The Church is a VISIBLE entity - a city on a hill that cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14-16). The Church is the Body of Christ.

THAT is what is being led by the Holy Spirit.

Who is included in the BODY of CHRIST which is indeed HIS CHURCH AND BRIDE

 

[miknik5]

That's because YOU have trouble staying on topic.
This thread is about the necessity of WATER Baptism.

If you want to talk about something else - start another thread . . .

Did I put these words into your mouth also?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Where do you get the idea that I lump the Orthodox Churches with Protestantism??
I plainly said that they were one of the lungs of the Church, as St. John Paul the Great said.

None should give men flattering titles as scripture warns against, to call a man the great", or calling a man His holiness etc, is not right and we are never to put men above that which is written as many did in the past by putting men over scripture.

Job 32:21
"Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man."

Job 32:22
"For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away."

The split was largely a matter Authority - not doctrine, unlike the splintering that took place some 500 years later.

This was part of it. Luther did rightly say he does not believe in the authority of Popes and Councils and he put scripture above them.And rightly so because scripture was against many of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church as the reformers showed. So the authority was in the word of God not mens words and authority in the church. Authority in the church is fluid flowing from Christ in the Spirit to all the body as they speak and live the word of God. The elders are more weighty in this word for they are mature and unlike babes who are unskillful in the word of righteousness. But all can share their gifts as they gather ( or should be allowed to in God's order). Sadly the spirit is quenched in many gatherings and Christ cannot sup with them or participate in them and among them.

Jesus said,

"42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all."

But this is exactly what we saw in history and with the Roman Church as the men who Lorded over the church were in authority OVER them and had dominion over them. But simple godly elders (overseers) are not to Lord over others and draw away disciples after themselves or to control them and be in supreme authority over them. Paul said not that we have dominion over your faith but are helpers of your joy. But this dominion , control, Lording over in supreme authority as masters over the believers was a main error.

John said we have no need that any man should teach us 1 John 2:27, but the anointing teaches us all things. It is Christ as the head of the church working in every part of the body as the edify ( build up) one another that we should live and move in and walk in this life every time we come together where all can edify each other. Ephesians 4:15,16, 1 Cor 14;26-38, 1 Peter 4;10,11 etc etc etc etc. But sadly today we see doctrines of men that turn from the truth all around and sanctioned by the leaders ( Lords) over the flock, contrary to the authority of scripture.

and the error of baptismal regeneration also came in by mens teaching contrary to scripture and the true saving gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4, 1 Cor 12:13

 

[MarysSon]

Who is included in the BODY of CHRIST which is indeed HIS CHURCH AND BRIDE

Okay - then show me a verse that makes the claim that the individual has the authority that Jesus gave the Leaders of His Church.

Do YOU have the authority to forgive sins or hold them bound (John 20:21-13).
Jesus gave that Authority to His Apostles.

Did Jesus give YOU the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven??
Jesus gave that Authority to PETER alone (Matt. 16:18-19).

Did Jesus guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide every individual to ALL Truth??
Jesus gave that Authority to His Apostles.

THIS is why there are almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming that the Holy Spirit led them there.

What a mess . . .

 

[MarysSon]

There might be confusion however for those who dont have their feet planted firmly on THE ROCK

Which....isn't Peter

Who is it, then?
Is is Abraham (Isaiah 51:1-2)??

 

[MarysSon]

Oh! I don't know. I probably read what you wrote. I suspect I have a different view of Anglicanism to you as well, which is why I don't want to know what your think. And by the way I don't believe that is what I said anyway.

And which you contend that the Great Schism was about authority and not doctrine, that view would not be held by everyone, and I certainly see some significant doctrinal issues bring raised by the insertion of the filioque, of which how authority is exercised in the Church is but one.

Then maybe YOU should study your Church history so you can discover that ALL of the Churches - East and West - were united as the ONE Catholic Church prior to the split.

As for the Anglican church - you're right. You don't want to hear my opinion on that Protestant sect . . .

 

[MarysSon]

But are you united as one with the NT church?

Beliefs change over 2,000 years, things get added, other things get ignored.

I doubt you are as one with NT church.

Lets see.

Do you believe an unsaved person can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost?

Why would you call them "unsaved"??
Is that your call - or is it GOD's??

Pretty arrogant of you to assume that you can read their hearts . . .

 

[MarysSon]

None should give men flattering titles as scripture warns against, to call a man the great", or calling a man His holiness etc, is not right and we are never to put men above that which is written as many did in the past by putting men over scripture.

REALLY??

- Why, then did God give Eve her TITLE which means "Mother of all the Living" (Gen. 3:20)??
- Why did God give Jacob the TITLE of "Israel" (Gen. 32:28)??
- Why is Abraham given the TITLE of "Rock" (Isa. 51:1-2)??
- Why is Mary given the TITLE of "Kecharitomene" (Like 1:34)??
- Why is Simon given the TITLE of "Rock" (Matt. 16:18)??

YOUR problem is that you don't understand Scripture. Nobody considers Eve or Jacob or Abraham or Peter or the Pope as being "greater" than God.

This was part of it. Luther did rightly say he does not believe in the authority of Popes and Councils and he put scripture above them.And rightly so because scripture was against many of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church as the reformers showed. So the authority was in the word of God not mens words and authority in the church. Authority in the church is fluid flowing from Christ in the Spirit to all the body as they speak and live the word of God. The elders are more weighty in this word for they are mature and unlike babes who are unskillful in the word of righteousness. But all can share their gifts as they gather ( or should be allowed to in God's order). Sadly the spirit is quenched in many gatherings and Christ cannot sup with them or participate in them and among them.

REALLY??
Scripture was "against" many of the teachings of the Catholic church??

- Was Scripture on Luther's side or Calvin's when it came to the Real Presence in the Eucharist??
- Was Scripture on Luther's side when he inserted the word "Alone" to Rom. 3:28??
- Was Scripture on Calvin's side or Zwingili's side regarding the immaculate conception??
- Was Scripture on Melanchton's side or Luther's side when Luther tried to remove Hebrews, the Epistle of James and Revelation from the Bible??
- Was Scripture on the side of Protestantism when virtually EVERY sect decided to accept artificial contraception after the Anglican Church caved in at the Lambeth Conference in 1930??

Try cleaning up your own mess before pointing fingers at the Catholic Church . . .

But this is exactly what we saw in history and with the Roman Church as the men who Lorded over the church were in authority OVER them and had dominion over them. But simple godly elders (overseers) are not to Lord over others and draw away disciples after themselves or to control them and be in supreme authority over them. Paul said not that we have dominion over your faith but are helpers of your joy. But this dominion , control, Lording over in supreme authority as masters over the believers was a main error.

REALLY??
Then, tell me - why are there almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming that they have the "Truth"??

"Follow the leader" can be a dangerous game when it is not sanctioned by God (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23) . . .

None should give men flattering titles as scripture warns against, to call a man the great", or calling a man His holiness etc, is not right and we are never to put men above that which is written as many did in the past by putting men over scripture.

REALLY??

- Why, then did God give Eve her TITLE which means "Mother of all the Living" (Gen. 3:20)??
- Why did God give Jacob the TITLE of "Israel" (Gen. 32:28)??

- Why is Abraham given the TITLE of "Rock" (Isa. 51:1-2)??
- Why is Mary given the TITLE of "Kecharitomene" (Like 1:34)??
- Why is Simon given the TITLE of "Rock" (Matt. 16:18)??

YOUR problem is that you don't understand Scripture. Nobody considers Eve or Jacob or Abraham or Peter or the Pope as being "greater" than God.

This was part of it. Luther did rightly say he does not believe in the authority of Popes and Councils and he put scripture above them.And rightly so because scripture was against many of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church as the reformers showed. So the authority was in the word of God not mens words and authority in the church. Authority in the church is fluid flowing from Christ in the Spirit to all the body as they speak and live the word of God. The elders are more weighty in this word for they are mature and unlike babes who are unskillful in the word of righteousness. But all can share their gifts as they gather ( or should be allowed to in God's order). Sadly the spirit is quenched in many gatherings and Christ cannot sup with them or participate in them and among them.

REALLY??
Scripture was "against" many of the teachings of the Catholic church??

- Was Scripture on Luther's side or Calvin's when it came to the Real Presence in the Eucharist??
- Was Scripture on Luther's side when he inserted the word "Alone" to Rom. 3:28??
- Was Scripture on Calvin's side or Zwingili's side regarding the immaculate conception??
- Was Scripture on Melanchton's side or Luther's side when Luther tried to remove Hebrews, the Epistle of James and Revelation from the Bible??
- Was Scripture on the side of Protestantism when virtually EVERY sect decided to accept artificial contraception after the Anglican Church caved in at the Lambeth Conference in 1930??

Try cleaning up your own mess before pointing fingers at the Catholic Church . . .

John said we have no need that any man should teach us 1 John 2:27, but the anointing teaches us all things. It is Christ as the head of the church working in every part of the body as the edify ( build up) one another that we should live and move in and walk in this life every time we come together where all can edify each other. Ephesians 4:15,16, 1 Cor 14;26-38, 1 Peter 4;10,11 etc etc etc etc. But sadly today we see doctrines of men that turn from the truth all around and sanctioned by the leaders ( Lords) over the flock, contrary to the authority of scripture.

REALLY??

Why, then do we read:
1 Cor. 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

1 John 2:27 is NOT about the rejection of teachers - but about regarding teachers as greater than GOD. You have completely perverted the meaning . . .

and the error of baptismal regeneration also came in by mens teaching contrary to scripture and the true saving gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4, 1 Cor 12:13

REALLY??

Why, then do we read:
Titus 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

MY Bible says that Baptism is regenerative (Col. 2:12-13, Acts. 2:38-39, John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5, Rom 6:1-11, Gal. 3:26-27).

 

[Philip_B]

Then maybe YOU should study your Church history so you can discover that ALL of the Churches - East and West - were united as the ONE Catholic Church prior to the split.
As for the Anglican church - you're right. You don't want to hear my opinion on that Protestant sect . . .

Oh I know so little! I was wondering of the Assyrian Church of the East and it's separation following the Council of Ephesus in 431, or the Oriental Church split following the Council of Chalcedon in 451. For that matter I wonder also of the Photian Schism 863-867.

I note the view of Anglicanism is expressed in the post, a little more research on this subject may bring a more informed opinion on the subject.

It may be of little interest that I have studied some Church History, and indeed my Post Graduate Degree included an Early Church History component.

 

[miknik5]

Who is it, then?
Is is Abraham (Isaiah 51:1-2)??

What?

You don't know?

 

[miknik5]

Okay - then show me a verse that makes the claim that the individual has the authority that Jesus gave the Leaders of His Church.

Do YOU have the authority to forgive sins or hold them bound (John 20:21-13).
Jesus gave that Authority to His Apostles.

Did Jesus give YOU the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven??
Jesus gave that Authority to PETER alone (Matt. 16:18-19).

Did Jesus guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide every individual to ALL Truth??
Jesus gave that Authority to His Apostles.

THIS is why there are almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming that the Holy Spirit led them there.

What a mess . . .

Yes to everyone of your questions

As to losing or binding... Yes that too. But I wouldn't bind anyone and anyone who died doesn't know of whose SPIRIY they truly are of

 

[miknik5]

Try binding someone's sin instead of forgiving them and see what happens

 

[miknik5]

REALLY??

- Why, then did God give Eve her TITLE which means "Mother of all the Living" (Gen. 3:20)??
- Why did God give Jacob the TITLE of "Israel" (Gen. 32:28)??
- Why is Abraham given the TITLE of "Rock" (Isa. 51:1-2)??
- Why is Mary given the TITLE of "Kecharitomene" (Like 1:34)??
- Why is Simon given the TITLE of "Rock" (Matt. 16:18)??

YOUR problem is that you don't understand Scripture. Nobody considers Eve or Jacob or Abraham or Peter or the Pope as being "greater" than God.

REALLY??
Scripture was "against" many of the teachings of the Catholic church??

- Was Scripture on Luther's side or Calvin's when it came to the Real Presence in the Eucharist??
- Was Scripture on Luther's side when he inserted the word "Alone" to Rom. 3:28??
- Was Scripture on Calvin's side or Zwingili's side regarding the immaculate conception??
- Was Scripture on Melanchton's side or Luther's side when Luther tried to remove Hebrews, the Epistle of James and Revelation from the Bible??
- Was Scripture on the side of Protestantism when virtually EVERY sect decided to accept artificial contraception after the Anglican Church caved in at the Lambeth Conference in 1930??

Try cleaning up your own mess before pointing fingers at the Catholic Church . . .

REALLY??
Then, tell me - why are there almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming that they have the "Truth"??

"Follow the leader" can be a dangerous game when it is not sanctioned by God (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23) . . .

REALLY??

- Why, then did God give Eve her TITLE which means "Mother of all the Living" (Gen. 3:20)??
- Why did God give Jacob the TITLE of "Israel" (Gen. 32:28)??

- Why is Abraham given the TITLE of "Rock" (Isa. 51:1-2)??
- Why is Mary given the TITLE of "Kecharitomene" (Like 1:34)??
- Why is Simon given the TITLE of "Rock" (Matt. 16:18)??

YOUR problem is that you don't understand Scripture. Nobody considers Eve or Jacob or Abraham or Peter or the Pope as being "greater" than God.

REALLY??
Scripture was "against" many of the teachings of the Catholic church??

- Was Scripture on Luther's side or Calvin's when it came to the Real Presence in the Eucharist??
- Was Scripture on Luther's side when he inserted the word "Alone" to Rom. 3:28??
- Was Scripture on Calvin's side or Zwingili's side regarding the immaculate conception??
- Was Scripture on Melanchton's side or Luther's side when Luther tried to remove Hebrews, the Epistle of James and Revelation from the Bible??
- Was Scripture on the side of Protestantism when virtually EVERY sect decided to accept artificial contraception after the Anglican Church caved in at the Lambeth Conference in 1930??

Try cleaning up your own mess before pointing fingers at the Catholic Church . . .

REALLY??

Why, then do we read:
1 Cor. 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

1 John 2:27 is NOT about the rejection of teachers - but about regarding teachers as greater than GOD. You have completely perverted the meaning . . .

REALLY??

Why, then do we read:
Titus 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

MY Bible says that Baptism is regenerative (Col. 2:12-13, Acts. 2:38-39, John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5, Rom 6:1-11, Gal. 3:26-27).

GOD gave Eve the title mother of all living (both male and female offspring) so no one could skirt over the truth that the seed of natural man was tainted and all the children born of eve would be brought forth of perishable seed