Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

[CrystalDragon]

I find something seriously wrong with water baptism being a requirement to be saved. That would mean that babies who die before being baptized don't get saved, and assuming the only other option is hell, you have babies burning in hell for eternity.

That is something I cannot and could never call "love", "justice", "compassion" or anything of the kind. And if anyone claims they can after really dwelling on it then you are a terrifying and morally awful individual who I hope never to meet and never has kids.

 

[miknik5]

I find something seriously wrong with water baptism being a requirement to be saved. That would mean that babies who die before being baptized don't get saved, and assuming the only other option is hell, you have babies burning in hell for eternity.

That is something I cannot and could never call "love", "justice", "compassion" or anything of the kind. And if anyone claims they can after really dwelling on it then you are a terrifying and morally awful individual who I hope never to meet and never has kids.

See that you do not offend any of these little ones

For their angel always beholds my father's face in heaven

Children are closer to GOD than any of us are

 

[MarysSon]

Oh excuse me.
I see
You're talking about water baptism
I wasn't though

That's because YOU have trouble staying on topic.
This thread is about the necessity of WATER Baptism.

If you want to talk about something else - start another thread . . .

 

[miknik5]

That's because YOU have trouble staying on topic.
This thread is about the necessity of WATER Baptism.

If you want to talk about something else - start another thread . . .

I think you need to review JESUS' word to nicodemus regarding understanding the difference between earthly and heavenly things

If you can't understand earthly things how can you understand heavenly

 

[MarysSon]

I think you need to review JESUS' word to nicodemus regarding understanding the difference between earthly and heavenly things

If you can't understand earthly things how can you understand heavenly

Precisely.
If YOU can't understand that He was talking about the necessity of Water Baptism - how can you ever understand how one is born again in Christ??

 

[miknik5]

Precisely.
If YOU can't understand that He was talking about the necessity of Water Baptism - how can you ever understand how one is born again in Christ??

Really?
I understand PRECISELY

And don't need your help

 

[MarysSon]

Really?
I understand PRECISELY

And don't need your help

No - you need GOD'S help to understand what you are not seeing.

 

[Der Alte]

No - you need GOD'S help to understand what you are not seeing.

There is a very obvious problem with this view. There are many religious groups around, who all claim that they alone are led by God and guided by the spirit and have the true understanding of the Bible e.g. LDS, JW, WWCG, UU, UPCI, OP, INC, Kristadelfian etc.

 

[MarysSon]

There is a very obvious problem with this view. There are many religious groups around, who all claim that they alone are led by God and guided by the spirit and have the true understanding of the Bible e.g. LDS, JW, WWCG, UU, UPCI, OP, INC, Kristadelfian etc.

I couldn't agree with you more.

The fallacy that all individuals are led by the Holy Spirit is why we have almost 50,000 disjointed, perpetually splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines and ALL claiming to have the "Truth".

Jesus built ONE Church - not 50,000 - and He prayed for the unity of that ONE Church, that they remain ONE as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). That ONE Church has taught the necessity of Water Baptism centuries before there even WAS a New Testament Canon.

 

[Philip_B]

I couldn't agree with you more. The fallacy that all individuals are led by the Holy Spirit is why we have almost 50,000 disjointed, perpetually splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines and ALL claiming to have the "Truth". Jesus built ONE Church - not 50,000 - and He prayed for the unity of that ONE Church, that they remain ONE as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). That ONE Church has taught the necessity of Water Baptism centuries before there even WAS a New Testament Canon.

I wonder what this line of discussion says about the Eastern Orthodox and the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Moscow, about Pope Tawardros and the Oriental Church, and about others who are not members of Protestant sects - like say the Anglican Church. All these Churches celebrate Baptism as integrally part of our life as Christians whereby we are called to be dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord, and we are called to shine as a light in the world to the Glory of God the Father.

John 17:20-23
‘I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.​

The matter in part comes down to how you are going to exegete the passage. On the one hand you have the capacity to establish a regime and say The Pope of Rome is the successor of Peter, therefore you must submit to him in all things and be part of his Church. To my mind this runs the risk of using scripture to support your position, rather than for illumination.

On the other hand we can acknowledge Christ's call for unity and look for ways to listen to what we are all saying, and find the ways through this tangled situation we call life, and build better friendships, and pray for one another, affirms and acknowledge one another, and support one another on the journey of faith and hope and love. To my mind this is a call for us all to understand the passage as a call to be Christlike.

I just quietly point out that I do not like the term water baptism because I 'believe in one baptism for the remission of sins' as I publicly declare on a regular basis.

 

[miknik5]

I couldn't agree with you more.

The fallacy that all individuals are led by the Holy Spirit is why we have almost 50,000 disjointed, perpetually splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines and ALL claiming to have the "Truth".

Jesus built ONE Church - not 50,000 - and He prayed for the unity of that ONE Church, that they remain ONE as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). That ONE Church has taught the necessity of Water Baptism centuries before there even WAS a New Testament Canon.

Why?
Why did that one "church" have to teach anything if HE said HE would build HIS OWN CHURCH?

 

[MarysSon]

Why?
Why did that one "church" have to teach anything if HE said HE would build HIS OWN CHURCH?

Did Jesus leave us with a Book??
NO.

Jesus left us with a CHURCH and gave that Church Supreme Authority - that whatever it ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).
He guaranteed that Church that it would be guided to ALL Truth by the Holy Spirit.
He didn't give that guarantee to every individual.

In Acts 9:4-5, He equated His very SELF with His Church, so I'm not sure what your question is.

 

[MarysSon]

I wonder what this line of discussion says about the Eastern Orthodox and the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Moscow, about Pope Tawardros and the Oriental Church, and about others who are not members of Protestant sects - like say the Anglican Church. All these Churches celebrate Baptism as integrally part of our life as Christians whereby we are called to be dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord, and we are called to shine as a light in the world to the Glory of God the Father.

John 17:20-23
‘I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.​

The matter in part comes down to how you are going to exegete the passage. On the one hand you have the capacity to establish a regime and say The Pope of Rome is the successor of Peter, therefore you must submit to him in all things and be part of his Church. To my mind this runs the risk of using scripture to support your position, rather than for illumination.

On the other hand we can acknowledge Christ's call for unity and look for ways to listen to what we are all saying, and find the ways through this tangled situation we call life, and build better friendships, and pray for one another, affirms and acknowledge one another, and support one another on the journey of faith and hope and love. To my mind this is a call for us all to understand the passage as a call to be Christlike.

I just quietly point out that I do not like the term water baptism because I 'believe in one baptism for the remission of sins' as I publicly declare on a regular basis.

The Bible is clear that there are to be NO divisions (1 Cor. 1:10).

As for the Orthodox Churches - they were ALL once part of the ONE Catholic Church. The division is largely a matter of Authority. They have valid Apostolic Succession and St. John Paul the Great referred to them as one of the 2 lungs of the Church.

Sadly, this claim cannot be made of the almost 50,000 Protestant denominations whose divisions are almost as diverse as their doctrines . . .

- Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.

- Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.

- Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.

- Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.

- Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.

- Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.

- Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.

- Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.

- Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.

- Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.

- Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on . . .

 

[Philip_B]

As for the Orthodox Churches - they were ALL once part of the ONE Catholic Church.

I find the statement disappointing, for a number of reasons. Firstly the statement is couched in the past tense. Given that it was not the Orthodox Churches but the Roman Church that changed the Creed of the Oecumenical Councils unilaterally, it is also, and perhaps even more consistent with history, to suggest that the Roman Church was once part of the Catholic Church.

I presume from the tenor of the post all other Christian Traditions are to be simply dismissed as protestant sects, which in my mind is a limited and blinkered view of reality.

My final statement is quite simply this, we are called to be One in Christ, One Body in Christ, One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which if far more profound than a call that we all be one in opinion. The real opinion that matters is the Creed of the 1st Council of Constantinople (381)

 

[miknik5]

Did Jesus leave us with a Book??
NO.

Jesus left us with a CHURCH and gave that Church Supreme Authority - that whatever it ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).
He guaranteed that Church that it would be guided to ALL Truth by the Holy Spirit.
He didn't give that guarantee to every individual.

In Acts 9:4-5, He equated His very SELF with His Church, so I'm not sure what your question is.

HE gave people whom HE gave gifts to by HIS SPIRIT for the building up of HIS BODY which is HIS BODY/CHURCH/BRIDE

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's because YOU have trouble staying on topic.
This thread is about the necessity of WATER Baptism.

If you want to talk about something else - start another thread . . .

A man is powerfully convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit. He sinks to his kness, tears streaming down his cheeks and cries out to God for the forgiveness of his sins. He asks Christ into his life as his Lord and Saviour.
How will God respond?

Will he say to the man:

I will forgive you, but not yet, only once you have been baptised In water.

Does that sound right to you?

 

[miknik5]

That group of people born and led by HIS SPIRIT are the CHURCH

And that is not limited to an outward structural church building

 

[stuart lawrence]

Did Jesus leave us with a Book??
NO.

Jesus left us with a CHURCH and gave that Church Supreme Authority - that whatever it ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).
He guaranteed that Church that it would be guided to ALL Truth by the Holy Spirit.
He didn't give that guarantee to every individual.

In Acts 9:4-5, He equated His very SELF with His Church, so I'm not sure what your question is.

.

 

[miknik5]

The Bible is clear that there are to be NO divisions (1 Cor. 1:10).

As for the Orthodox Churches - they were ALL once part of the ONE Catholic Church. The division is largely a matter of Authority. They have valid Apostolic Succession and St. John Paul the Great referred to them as one of the 2 lungs of the Church.

Sadly, this claim cannot be made of the almost 50,000 Protestant denominations whose divisions are almost as diverse as their doctrines . . .

- Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.

- Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.

- Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.

- Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.

- Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.

- Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.

- Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.

- Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.

- Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.

- Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.

- Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on . . .

I wonder if we brought all these outward groups together if they all profess. ONE FOUNDATION

Since there only is ONE FOUNDATION

 

[JackRT]

A man is powerfully convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit. He sinks to his kness, tears streaming down his cheeks and cries out to God for the forgiveness of his sins. He asks Christ into his life as his Lord and Saviour.
How will God respond?

Will he say to the man:

I will forgive you, but not yet, only once you have been baptised In water.

Does that sound right to you?

No.