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Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

TheSeabass

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I wouldn't necessarily say yes to that. They would at least need to prayer for it. If they don't have enough knowledge to know they need to pray then obviously they're not going to. As far as believing. God may work with the knowledge, or lack thereof, we have.
So you are saying there will be people saved outside of Christ?
 
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JohnKing67

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So you are saying there will be people saved outside of Christ?

I think it's a repentant heart and willingness to be saved that's important. Why would God not save someone if they ask him willingly? Would he hold what they don't know against them? If he does that doesn't sound like a loving God who wants to save people.
 
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miknik5

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Not only dies this verse NOT make the silly claim that baptism is only "symbolic" - it PROVES the point that it SAVES us:
1 Pet. 3:19-21
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

This prefigured baptism, which SAVES YOU now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
were the spirits water baptized?
 
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Der Alte

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Correct - but obedience doe NOT mean that it is NOT required (Mark 16:16, John 3:5).
And obedience to a commandment does not mean that commandment is required for salvation.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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WRONG.
Here is the passage from Strong's Greek Concordance:
Titus 3:4-5
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the BATH OF REBIRTH and renewal by the holy Spirit,

Titus 3:4-5
ὅτε δὲ ἡ χρηστότης καὶ ἡ φιλανθρωπίαἐπεφάνη τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν θεοῦ, οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων τῶν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ ἃ ἐποιήσαμεν ἡμεῖςἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς διὰ λουτροῦ (BATH) παλιγγενεσίας (NEW BIRTH)
No you are wrong. This is cherry picking sources to support assumptions/presuppositions. The παλιν of παλιγγενεσίας always, ever, only means "again" not "new." The Greek word for "new" is "kainos."
Online Bible FAQ
Q:
The Online Bible Strong's is not the same as my Exhaustive Strong's Concordance. Why is that?
A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about
15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.
http://www.onlinebible.net/faqs.html
=======
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You can continue to deny this but you'll STILL be wrong.
What needs to be addressed?? We know by the preceding verses that Jesus wasn't talking about a physical rebirth.
HOWEVER, it still proves YOU wrong when you say that baptism is "ONLY" equated with death - which is completely false.
You can say "false" and "wrong" until your keyboard wears out that does not make it true.
You keep forgetting that John wrote this and John is the
only one who records the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.
...And your point is?
It is blindingly clear to any honest person reading those first few chapters what Jesus is referring to in John 3 - and that is Baptism.
In the gospels Jesus used some form of the word Baptize twenty one [21] times. If Jesus meant baptism in John 3:5 that is what He would have said. A doctrine cannot be built on an assumption.
.....As I have shown, other than this one assumption, baptism is never equated with birth but is is equated with death and resurrection three times. Rom 6:3-4, Col 2:12. And we don't have to make any guesses or assumptions the verses clearly say "Buried with him in baptism,""baptized into his death," and "buried with him by baptism into death." Baptism cannot be death and birth at the same time.

Colossians 2:12
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 6:3-4
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 
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miknik5

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I believe and have no intention of ever being water baptized.
I was
Thanks for your concern

Sorry....read your post wrong

Thought you said I believe you have no intentions of being water baptized
 
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MarysSon

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were the spirits water baptized?
And there you go again making the beginner's blunder of trying to separate the words of Jesus.
He told Nicodemus that a person must be born of water AND Spirit to enter the kingdom of Heaven. It's BOTH - not one or the other . . .
 
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MarysSon

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No you are wrong. This is cherry picking sources to support assumptions/presuppositions. The παλιν of παλιγγενεσίας always, ever, only means "again" not "new." The Greek word for "new" is "kainos."
Online Bible FAQ
Q:
The Online Bible Strong's is not the same as my Exhaustive Strong's Concordance. Why is that?
A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about
15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.
http://www.onlinebible.net/faqs.html
=======
Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.
http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/Product/ProductDetail.htm?ProdID=com.zondervan.9780310233435&QueryStringSite=Zondervan

Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, The: 21st Century Edition

You can say "false" and "wrong" until your keyboard wears out that does not make it true.

...And your point is?

In the gospels Jesus used some form of the word Baptize twenty one [21] times. If Jesus meant baptism in John 3:5 that is what He would have said. A doctrine cannot be built on an assumption.
.....As I have shown, other than this one assumption, baptism is never equated with birth but is is equated with death and resurrection three times. Rom 6:3-4, Col 2:12. And we don't have to make any guesses or assumptions the verses clearly say "Buried with him in baptism,""baptized into his death," and "buried with him by baptism into death." Baptism cannot be death and birth at the same time.

Colossians 2:12
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 6:3-4
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rubbish.

If you would have us believe that Jesus is talking about something OTHER than Baptism in John 3:5 – why is it that the Early Church Fathers UNANIMOUSLY agree that YOU are wrong?? As a matter of fact – not one, single Church Father ever refers to John 3:5 as anything OTHER than water baptism – and Greek was their FIRST language.

<staff edit>
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian
"No one can attain salvation without BAPTISM, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus
"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the BAPTISM " (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

The Recognitions of Clement
"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet Jesus testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Testimonies Concerning the Jews
"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be BAPTIZED and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"[When] they receive also the BAPTISM of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Carthage VII
"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving BAPTISM in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).

Athanasius
"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).

Basil the Great
"This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of BAPTISM is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan
"Although we are BAPTIZED with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).

"The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of BAPTISM.

. . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).


"You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in BAPTISM are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).

Gregory of Nyssa
"[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own BAPTISM, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).

John Chrysostom
"No one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through BAPTISM: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory of Nazianz
"Such is the grace and power of BAPTISM; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths" (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).

The Apostolic Constitutions
"Be ye likewise contented with one BAPTISM alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).

Augustine
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to BAPTISM; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is REBORN. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).

"Those who, though they have not received the
washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of BAPTISM. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’" [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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No circumstance can change what the bible says is required for salvation The bible commands men to believe. What if a person lives in a remote part of the world and never hears/reads a bible. The person, if given the opportunity to hear/read the bible would come to believe, will there be exceptions made? No.

so the thief on the cross did not meet the Lord in paradise(I saw the response to this, a rather unsatisfying argument from silence)?
 
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LoveofTruth

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In Jn 3:5 Jesus is speaking of ONE birth that has TWO elements 1) water 2) Spirit.

Water of Jn 3:5 has nothing to do with the physical birth (corruptible seed - 1 Peter 1:23) but is a reference to water baptism. If water refers to the physical birth, then why would Jesus tell a full grown adult as Nicodemus that he MUST be physically born? Could Jesus not know Nicodemus was ALREADY physically born? It makes Jesus look rather silly.

The reason Jesus mentioned being born of water and also being born of the spirit is because he first said a man must be born again, very simple, then Nicodemus asked how can a man be born when he is old, can he ENTER INTO HIS MOTHERS WOMB AND BE BORN. Jesus answered this question and added to the original statement "you must be born again". Jesus added that which is born of the flesh is flesh( this would be a person coming out of h the mothers womb when the water breaks, born of water. But the spirit al birth is unseen born of the spirit, like the wind. If water baptism was mean with the spirit here then when a person gets water baptized you would see it. But jesus said the new birth is unseen like the wind. so is everyone that is born of the spirit. He did not end the talk with "born of the spirit and water.

also Nicodemus may have thought he was saved just by his natural birth being a child in Israel from Abraham etc. But Jesus corrects any misunderstanding of this.

notice the order and flow of this section

"3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [Jesus first simply mentions being born again]

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [Nicodemus then ask how a man can go into his mothers womb and be born, so the context does refer in part to a natural birth, or being born after the flesh, for flesh is flesh as jesus said, and the baby comes out of the womb with water , when the water breaks, to e born of water is an expression of this, very simple really to the unbiased reader]

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [ Jesus answers Nicodemus question and shows a difference in the two births, Jesus is saying that none enter into the kingdom of God unless they have two births, not just one as Nicodemus had, just by claiming to be a descendant of Abraham and belonging to the Jews did not make them saved as many may have thought, something else is needed and that is to be born of the spirit.]

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [This is so clear her that I marvel any could miss it. Two births are mentioned in this section, one is of the flesh and that birth is only flesh, NOT a spiritual birth in any way), the other is to be born after the spirit and this is by the word of God as scripture teaches]

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [ Jesus now goes away from answering Nicodemus question about being born a second time from the womb of a woman and clarifies his original words in vs 3]

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. [Here we see that the expression to be born again is a spiritual one not of the flesh but of the spirit, like the wind which cannot be seen so is everyone that is born of the spirit. Notice here Jesus does not mention born of the flesh or born of water. He simply reaffirms his original words in vs 3 about being g born again. This birth is from above not of the earth. this birth is a spiritual birth[

Paul says similar about this birth here,

Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,..."

Notice here that the birth he speaks of is a spiritual one. They had already received the spirit by the hearing of faith in Chapter three we read , and then they were trying to be perfect by the works of the law and adding the law and circumcision to the gospel. This caused some to fall from grace ( or salvation for by grace are ye saved) and they had to be born again, again, as Paul said. But there is no water baptism mentioned here. To have "birth again", is to have Christ formed in you. This is a spiritual life. If any try to add water baptism to the gospel , they fall into the game judgement Paul warned about adding circumcision to salvation also. The gospel is 1 Cor 15: 1-4, plain and simple, no works of the law added no water baptism or Sabbaths or circumcision etc.

To be born again is a spiritual life not physical, not water or ritual . We see this here

"23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

It is the word of God that gives life and birth and this word is sown in the heart,

"9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." ( 1 John 3:9)

an

"18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,...and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."( James 1:18,21)


Psalm 119:50
"This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hathquickened me."

Nicodemus should have known this already as jesus said. Quickened means to make alive.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

this last verse is important because by grace we are saved not of works. Not of water baptism. Paul said Christ sent him not to baptism but to preach the gospel. This shows the difference of water baptism to the gospel, and they are not the same. Yet the gospel is what saves as Paul said in 1 Cor 15.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Again, Peter is commanded his lost hearers to be baptized..."be baptized every one of you". Who is the "you" Peter is commanding to be baptized?
No Peter said in the very next chapter after he questioned what happened and said for them to be baptized that then he remembered the word of the Lord ( in Acts 1) how that John baptized [past tense] with water, but ye shall be [future tense] baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Peter was confused because he saw the gentiles come in and be saved by God's grace and speak with tongues before any works of the law were done. Water baptism was of the law and OT diverse washings that were imposed upon the Jews. Peter was still under the law at that time and following the halavah law or oral traditions and customs of the jews. When a Gentile convert came to Judaism they had to be water baptized in full submersion and be circumcised. This is why the Pharisees that believed in Acts 15 said that the gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved.

Peter was either following the traditions of the Jews in their oral traditions and customs or following Johns OT baptism that was to fade away as all the OT covenant was ( Hebrews 8 and 9)

Notice that there were also the circumcison group with Peter and he knew he would meet more of them and rehersed what he would say when he met them.

All through Acts we see this aspect of the Jews zealous for the law. Peter did not understand all these things yet. Peter even argued with God about not eating unclean meats. Peter was still under the OT dietary laws. Also Peter said it was unlawful to eat with a Gentile. This is not the Mosaic law but rather the Halakah law or customs of the Jews. So Peter was still under this as many thousands of Jews were right up to Acts 21 and beyond as the scripture shows. Peter and many other Jewish believers were going into the temple all this time and sacrificing animals and following the law. But in Acts 15 when there was a disputation about the Gentiles Peter said that the Gentiles as well as the Jews were saved by grace. He understood this. He did not seek to bring them at that time under the law and the entire jewish group there agreed and did not put the Gentiles under the law. They only had to do four things that were required for strangers in Israel.
 
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LoveofTruth

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One can see another being water baptized, but what is unseen, what is spiritual in nature is the 'circumcision made without hands", the forgiveness of sins where God is removing the body of sin when one is baptized, Colossians 2:11-14. Even though I cannot see the wind I can hear it, feel it and see the effects of it when it blows. Likewise even though I cannot see what takes place during baptism, I know the effects of it. Later in the context John was baptizing where there was 'much water'- John 3:23. John's water baptism was for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4) so even though one can see another being water baptized, one cannot see the forgiveness that takes place.


Why would the term "birth" be associated with what takes places spiritually? When an infant is "born", it is born into the world pure and without sin. Likewise when one is "born again" he rises from the water grave of baptism also pure and without sin having just had all his sins remitted.


When an infant is born they are saved by the grace of God for Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. They are not aware of the law yet. Paul said he was alive once ( as an infant or young child) without the law, but when the commandment came sin revived ( his sin nature being provoked by the law) and he died ( he died spiritually not physically). All infants , I believe are in this similar state until they have sin revive ( or their old sin nature revives) it lies dormant so to speak until revived. Also Jesus said the reason men are condemned is when they hate the light because their deeds are evil. But the child has not done any good or evil yet until sin revives. Where no law is there is no transgression and sin is not imputed where there is no law.

But infant salvation is a long talk. Jesus did bless the infants and said of such is the kingdom of Heaven. They also had angels for each off them.

Unless any here want to say that when a one day old child dies they will sand before God and hear the words "away from me all ye that work iniquity"
 
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JohnKing67

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When an infant is born they are saved by the grace of God for Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. They are not aware of the law yet. Paul said he was alive once ( as an infant or young child) without the law, but when the commandment came sin revived ( his sin nature being provoked by the law) and he died ( he died spiritually not physically).

Technically everyone's born under the sin curse. Infants just haven't reached the age of accountability yet.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Technically everyone's born under the sin curse. Infants just haven't reached the age of accountability yet.
Yes so technically infants are all saved until they hate the light and have sin revive.

This is important because it defeats the doctrine of Calvin that says only a certain number of people Christ died for and that none can fall from salvation and will persevere. This is defeated by infant salvation. Because all infants are like sheep at one time and saved and elect. Then when sin revives they go astray and need to be born again.

I am not teaching that all people will be saved in the end. But that infants ( all people) were once in that light and salvation at one time and went astray when they hate the light and sin revives.
 
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JohnKing67

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Yes so technically infants are all saved until they hate the light and have sin revive.

This is important because it defeats the doctrine of Calvin that says only a certain number of people Christ died for and that none can fall from salvation and will persevere. This is defeated by infant salvation. Because all infants are like sheep at one time and saved and elect. Then when sin revives they go astray and need to be brag again.

I am not teaching that all people will be saved in the end. But that infants ( all people) were once in that light and salvation at one time and went astray when they hate the light and sin revives.

OK
 
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