Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

[TheSeabass]

Sorry to say, but you couldn't be further from the truth. Jesus said

"6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

He is speaking of TWO births here. The one is of water ( natural birth, born of the flesh and it is only flesh) the other is to be born of the spirit and this cannot be seen, like the wind.

the one saving baptism, is into Christ by the Spirit. There are about 7 baptisms in scripture but only one saving one and the saving one is not water baptism. after baptism belonged to the old covenant for the Jews and it was among the diverse washings and carnal ordinances imposed upon them until the time of reformation

In Jn 3:5 Jesus is speaking of ONE birth that has TWO elements 1) water 2) Spirit.

Water of Jn 3:5 has nothing to do with the physical birth (corruptible seed - 1 Peter 1:23) but is a reference to water baptism. If water refers to the physical birth, then why would Jesus tell a full grown adult as Nicodemus that he MUST be physically born? Could Jesus not know Nicodemus was ALREADY physically born? It makes Jesus look rather silly. Water refers to baptism as "water" a few verses later in John 3:23 refers to water baptism and not the physical birth.

Again!!!

Jn 3:5---------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13----spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5-------Holy spirit++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>saved

The bible makes it too clear what is meant by water of Jn 3:5. One would have to go to great lengths to misunderstand the simplicity of this.

Also, since there is just one way to be saved/born again, then all three verses MUST express the same idea....which they do. If "water" in Jn 3:5 represents the physical birth, then where is the physical birth in the other born again passages of 1 Cor 12:13 and Titus 3:5?

 

[TheSeabass]

we may be confusing the question of whether someone can be saved if they are not baptized with whether or not were are commanded to be baptized.

Water baptism is commanded Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48. If one can disobey this command and still be saved, then he could disobey ALL God's commands and still be saved?


Psalms 119:172 all of God's commandments are righteousness. Therefore being baptized is doing God's righteousness. Not doing God's commands is doing unrighteousness. Yet the unrighteous are lost. John says he that continues to NOT do righteousness continues to NOT be of God 1 John 3:10.
As long as one is NOT baptized he continues to NOT do God's righteousness and thereby continues to not be of God.

 

[JohnKing67]

Water baptism is commanded Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48. If one can disobey this command and still be saved, then he could disobey ALL God's commands and still be saved?


Psalms 119:172 all of God's commandments are righteousness. Therefore being baptized is doing God's righteousness. Not doing God's commands is doing unrighteousness. Yet the unrighteous are lost. John says he that continues to NOT do righteousness continues to NOT be of God 1 John 3:10.
As long as one is NOT baptized he continues to NOT do God's righteousness and thereby continues to not be of God.

Just out of curiosity. If someone were locked in a prison somewhere and wanted to be saved, but were denied water baptism by his or her captors, would they also be denied salvation by God even if they repented & believed?

 

[Der Alte]

If baptism was not part of the gospel message preached to the eunuch or jailer, then how would they know they need to obediently be baptized? Evidently teaching the gospel is teaching baptism.
Secondly, if being baptized is obedience then for that reason alone makes it essential to salvation for not being baptized would be disobedience/unrighteousness/sinful.

That something was taught to prospective converts does not make it a requirement for salvation.

In Jn 3:5 Jesus is speaking of ONE birth that has TWO elements 1) water 2) Spirit.
Water of Jn 3:5 has nothing to do with the physical birth (corruptible seed - 1 Peter 1:23) but is a reference to water baptism. If water refers to the physical birth, then why would Jesus tell a full grown adult as Nicodemus that he MUST be physically born? Could Jesus not know Nicodemus was ALREADY physically born? It makes Jesus look rather silly. Water refers to baptism as "water" a few verses later in John 3:23 refers to water baptism and not the physical birth.
Again!!!
Jn 3:5---------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13----spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5-------Holy spirit++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>saved
The bible makes it too clear what is meant by water of Jn 3:5. One would have to go to great lengths to misunderstand the simplicity of this.
Also, since there is just one way to be saved/born again, then all three verses MUST express the same idea....which they do. If "water" in Jn 3:5 represents the physical birth, then where is the physical birth in the other born again passages of 1 Cor 12:13 and Titus 3:5?

In this post you have cited John 3:5, five times but despite numerous requests to do so you have not addressed John 3:6.
.....You keep quoting Titus 3:5 out-of-context even after I have shown you it has nothing to do with baptism. If Paul had intended to say βαπτίζω/baptizo that is what he would have said but he didn't he said λουτρόν/loutron which never means baptism.
Titus 3:5
(5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing [λουτρόν/loutron] of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

1 Corinthians 1:17
(17) For Christ sent me not to baptize [βαπτίζω/baptizo], but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
Colossians 2:12
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 6:3-4
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

"Buried with him in baptism," not born! "Baptized into his death," not born! "Buried with him by baptism into death,"" not born.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Water baptism is commanded Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48. If one can disobey this command and still be saved, then he could disobey ALL God's commands and still be saved?

correct, baptism is commanded.

but in a situation where a truly born again believer does not refuse water baptism but is not capable of receiving water baptism due to certain circumstances, do we then declare that this person will be denied salvation despite the fact that they're heart and mind was indeed changed by the LORD?

 

[MarysSon]

Yes we are and yes some have been and yes that's why 1 John 2:27 is TRUTH

Further John's testimony: HE will baptize with THE SPIRIT and with Fire

YEP

HE DOES

(ps I'll be extra careful with autocorrect from now on. I don't like to give "my friends" ammunition against me)

WRONG.

Peter baptized Cornelius and his household - with WATER.
Ananias baptized Paul - with WATER.
Paul baptized the household of Stephanas - with WATER.
Philip baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch - with WATER.

They were all baptized INTO Christ.

 

[MarysSon]

My conversation is fine. Not at all sure about yours though. Anyway I'm tired of arguing with you since it's going nowhere. Bye.

And it'll continue to go nowhere as long as you reject the Scriptures . . .

 

[MarysSon]

O-B-E-D-I-E-N-C-E

Correct - but obedience doe NOT mean that it is NOT required (Mark 16:16, John 3:5).

 

[MarysSon]

Jesus said you are a teacher of the law and you don't understand?

A Jew knew before he could come into the presence of the holy glory he had to first consecrate/wash/purify hinself

Water baptism is symbolic of that need and an outward declaration of that need

When John came preaching water baptism he was in a sense telling
Israel that they were unclean. Those who listened, obeyed and were washed.

Not surprisingly the teachers of the law couldn't obey . Because if they did, they were publicly declaring themselves also unclean before GOD

This is complete and utter nonsense.

Show me the verse that baptism is only "symbolic."
Jesus deems is a necessity (Mark 16:16, John 3:5).

 

[miknik5]

WRONG.

Peter baptized Cornelius and his household - with WATER.
Ananias baptized Paul - with WATER.
Paul baptized the household of Stephanas - with WATER.
Philip baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch - with WATER.

They were all baptized INTO Christ.

Sorry Mary. But this anointing is real

It's why no man needs to teach us

You can't tell a man to do what has already been done but he will do what is outward because of what has already been done inwardly

 

[miknik5]

And it'll continue to go nowhere as long as you reject the Scriptures . . .

What will continue to go nowhere?

Your conversation and fellowship?

Or his fellowship with THE LORD?

What are you referring to?

 

[miknik5]

This is complete and utter nonsense.

Show me the verse that baptism is only "symbolic."
Jesus deems is a necessity (Mark 16:16, John 3:5).

1 Peter 3:20-21

By the way..."eight" and the "ark" were also symbolic

 

[MarysSon]

The discussion might progress more logically if you were to read my posts. Once again, my previous post.

​

I was not discussing παλιγγενεσια vs. βαπτίζω but λουτρόν vs. baptizo..
And παλιγγενεσία does not mean "new birth." The Greek word for new is καινός not πάλιν i.e. again.

παλιγγενεσία From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.​

​

WRONG.
Here is the passage from Strong's Greek Concordance:
Titus 3:4-5
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the BATH OF REBIRTH and renewal by the holy Spirit,

Titus 3:4-5
ὅτε δὲ ἡ χρηστότης καὶ ἡ φιλανθρωπίαἐπεφάνη τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν θεοῦ, οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων τῶν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ ἃ ἐποιήσαμεν ἡμεῖςἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς διὰ λουτροῦ (BATH) παλιγγενεσίας (NEW BIRTH)

You can continue to deny this but you'll STILL be wrong . .

You keep insisting on me reading the verses in-context but despite more than one post you have yet to address John 3:6.

What needs to be addressed?? We know by the preceding verses that Jesus wasn't talking about a physical rebirth.
HOWEVER, it still proves YOU wrong when you say that baptism is "ONLY" equated with death - which is completely false.

I wasn't talking about the Catholic interpretation but yours.

I ONLY gave you the Catholic interpretation.
I don't waste time posting my own opinions. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) - not me and certainly not YOU . . .

That the Holy Spirit was present at the Baptism of Jesus does not address the question before us. Was the presence of the Holy Spirit at Jesus' baptism a baptismal rebirth?

You keep forgetting that John wrote this and John is the only one who records the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.

It is blindingly clear to any honest person reading those first few chapters what Jesus is referring to in John 3 - and that is Baptism.

 

[MarysSon]

1 Peter 3:20-21

By the way..."eight" and the "ark" were also symbolic

Not only dies this verse NOT make the silly claim that baptism is only "symbolic" - it PROVES the point that it SAVES us:
1 Pet. 3:19-21
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

This prefigured baptism, which SAVES YOU now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[TheSeabass]

Just out of curiosity. If someone were locked in a prison somewhere and wanted to be saved, but were denied water baptism by his or her captors, would they also be denied salvation by God even if they repented & believed?

As far as what the bible says, yes. What if someone were locked in a prison somewhere and wanted to be saved, but was denied a bible to read and study to know what he needed to know to believe and be saved. Would he be denied salvation by God?

 

[MarysSon]

What will continue to go nowhere?
Your conversation and fellowship?
Or his fellowship with THE LORD?
What are you referring to?

His confusion.

 

[MarysSon]

One (possibly) out 19 million Americans that suffer was able to be baptized. But what if the others actually resist it?

There is no need for full immersion.
NOWHERE in all of the NT do we see explicit descriptions of full immersion being practices. All we read about are people coming "out of the water" - but nothing of dunking.

People can be baptized by pouring, which would solve the problem of those with aquaphobia. We read about this in the First Century document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles" which is the earliest catechism on record and written while they were still alive.

 

[TheSeabass]

That something was taught to prospective converts does not make it a requirement for salvation.

The fact baptism is commanded makes it essential to salvation, In Acts 16 the jailer was commanded to believe so belief was not a requirement for salvation anyway?

In this post you have cited John 3:5, five times but despite numerous requests to do so you have not addressed John 3:6.

All I have seen is people try and use John 3:6 to make changes to John 5:3. Verse 6 simply demonstrates the difference between the flesh and the Spirit and does not change verse 3.

.....You keep quoting Titus 3:5 out-of-context even after I have shown you it has nothing to do with baptism. If Paul had intended to say βαπτίζω/baptizo that is what he would have said but he didn't he said λουτρόν/loutron which never means baptism.
Titus 3:5
(5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing [λουτρόν/loutron] of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Jn 3:5--------Spirit+++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13----spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----Holy Spirit++++laver of water>>>>>saved

It's too obvious that "water" = "baptized" = "laver of water" that refers to a baptistery/baptismal font.
Nothing out of context with these three born again verses. Titus 3:5 has the exact same 2 elements that Christ spoke of in John 3:5: Spirit and water.

1 Corinthians 1:17
(17) For Christ sent me not to baptize [βαπτίζω/baptizo], but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
Colossians 2:12
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 6:3-4
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

"Buried with him in baptism," not born! "Baptized into his death," not born! "Buried with him by baptism into death,"" not born.

Water baptism is a burial from which one is "raised up from" Romans 6:4.
Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen..."

THe old man of sin is buried in water baptism and one is raised to walk in a newness life, born again

 

[TheSeabass]

correct, baptism is commanded.

but in a situation where a truly born again believer does not refuse water baptism but is not capable of receiving water baptism due to certain circumstances, do we then declare that this person will be denied salvation despite the fact that they're heart and mind was indeed changed by the LORD?

No circumstance can change what the bible says is required for salvation The bible commands men to believe. What if a person lives in a remote part of the world and never hears/reads a bible. The person, if given the opportunity to hear/read the bible would come to believe, will there be exceptions made? No.

Why is it that those who have been taught a theological bias against the necessity of baptism will not find exceptions to the command to believe but will look and look for exceptions to get around the command to be baptized when the bible makes both belief and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation?

 

[JohnKing67]

As far as what the bible says, yes. What if someone were locked in a prison somewhere and wanted to be saved, but was denied a bible to read and study to know what he needed to know to believe and be saved. Would he be denied salvation by God?

I wouldn't necessarily answer yes to that. They would at least need to prayer for it. If they don't have enough knowledge to know they need to pray then obviously they're not going to. As far as believing. God may work with the knowledge, or lack thereof, we have. My understanding is that "saving faith" comes from God. So that could be found through a prayer of repentance.