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Hypothetical: Creationism becomes standard in science classes

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Larniavc

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And what would the course consist of? What are the specifics? And how would you get the other creationists (many of whom are staunchly anti-ID) to agree?
"If you will all turn to page one?

Goddidit.

There will be a test in May: good luck".
 
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Ken Behrens

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Oh my, no just no.

The theory of evolution is a scientific theory, creationism is not a theory, its a religious belief. They are in no way equal.
What level do you wish to discuss this at? How well trained in science are you?
 
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Ken Behrens

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Oh really , that's why billions of years are continually added to attempt to cover the improbability , maybe Ken knows the mathematical theory that states when a thing becomes so statistically improbable it becomes impossible ..
Perhaps you are referring to Plank's constant, which implies that when things get close enough together, even though they are still far enough apart to discuss the distance mathematically, they are indistinguishable physically.
 
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Ken Behrens

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Please show us your calculations that show this impossibility.
Mathematically, the issue is that in order to do any science before about 10k years ago, we must make assumptions about the physical forces int he universe. If the measurements then were different from the measurements now, then any computations could be wrong. And we have no way to check those measurement. Now, scientists argue that change of measurements would show in geology or various other ways, but this is wrong and they know it, as everyone agrees that time dilates as you go over the radius of a black hole, and that there is no way those on the space ship could know they are doing this.
 
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Ken Behrens

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Guys: Stop talking about evolution. For the purposes of this hypothetical, it's already been defeated. You've won. You get to teach an alternative. So what do you teach, and how do you get the entire creationist movement to agree on it?
I will teach the scientific evidence, and the various theories. Then, I would encourage each student to choose for himself based on scientific method, and present his thoughts as a class project. If you are correct that I cannot teach evolution as one of these theories, then this is no more science than the current situation where we cannot teach creationism.
 
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Skreeper

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Mathematically, the issue is that in order to do any science before about 10k years ago, we must make assumptions about the physical forces int he universe. If the measurements then were different from the measurements now, then any computations could be wrong. And we have no way to check those measurement. Now, scientists argue that change of measurements would show in geology or various other ways, but this is wrong and they know it, as everyone agrees that time dilates as you go over the radius of a black hole, and that there is no way those on the space ship could know they are doing this.

So are you claiming that life coming from natural processes is impossible or not? I don't really get the point of your post.
 
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Queller

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What are:
- 'Embedded Age' Creationism;
The world is 6,000 years old but looks older because God made it look that way.

For example, you see a tractor that has bald, cracked tires, leaks oil, is covered in rust, and won't start because the battery is dead. All of these things would appear to the reasonable person to indicate that the tractor is very old, but Embedded Age claims that the tractor was in fact created in that state yesterday by God.

- 'Past State' Creationism?
The physical forces and laws that we have today were different or non-existent in the past meaning that trying to measure the past using the physics of today is futile. This is dad's favorite.

For example fossils from at different rates in the different state past.
 
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Queller

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Evolution is a theory that tries to tell me that a finch with enough time could transform into a Galapagos Tortoise or vice/versa ^_^
Laugh all you want but evolutionary theory doesn't make any such claim.

Or that enough time DNA will form and function on it's own then change it's code and information on it's own ,then program its own death .. Sorry, I ain't buying
I wouldn't buy that either. Good thing evolution says no such thing.

ID can be seen in everything formed including the irreducible mouse trap or that the eye could ever be anything but designed ,useless unless whole and functional from the get-go ..
The reducible mousetrap

Every creature and plant serves it's purpose and is perfect in it's perfect environment . Some may adapt and breed out certain traits to become recessive or dominate but kinds remain kinds limited to unchanging information contained and well defined in their DNA ..But we all know these things, just can't discuss them without the Political Correct police rushing it to shout it down .. I will not be moved ..
What is a kind and what prevents it from becoming a new kind?
 
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Speedwell

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What level do you wish to discuss this at? How well trained in science are you?
Considering the OP question, as a practical matter, you can reasonably assume that the level will be appropriate to a unit (10-20 classroom hours) in a "pass" science class for non-college-bound high school sophomores taught by a PE coach.
 
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Ken Behrens

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So are you claiming that life coming from natural processes is impossible or not? I don't really get the point of your post.
My point is that we cannot know (as a scientist). We cannot be certain that the laws we use to make scientific inference were the same then as they are now.

As a believer, of course, I believe nothing happened except formlessness and void until God started things moving.
 
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Ken Behrens

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Considering the OP question, as a practical matter, you can reasonably assume that the level will be appropriate to a unit (10-20 classroom hours) in a "pass" science class for non-college-bound high school sophomores taught by a PE coach.
They aren't learning anything now in such classes. The PE coach can teach anything he wants, the result will be the same. They will have to wait until a better situation comes along to learn any science.
 
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4x4toy

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And what would the course consist of? What are the specifics? And how would you get the other creationists (many of whom are staunchly anti-ID) to agree?

I'd start here and work out , maybe start at the 13:00 mark for 5 or 6 minutes if your attention span is too short
 
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Speedwell

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I'd start here and work out , maybe start at the 13:00 mark for 5 or 6 minutes if your attention span is too short
Nothing substantive about ID theory in it--it's just the usual ignorant slanderous rant about how evolution is atheistic.
If you are going to teach ID, you have to actually teach ID.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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In your 3,000,000 post history have you actually ever made an argument that was not fallacious or nonsensical?

No he has not, and the vast, vast majority of those are in counting threads so don't be impressed by it.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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No, I'm a college math professor. I know what real teaching of science is.

I'm sorry, but that's akin to saying one is a professor of English or Law and therefore one is in a position to know what the "real teaching" of science is.

Evolution is, whether you like it or not, scientific and a fact. That is why is taught in college biology classrooms. Well, most college biology classrooms. I'm in a Facebook group where a student at Liberty University is describing his experience with his Origins 201 class. It's quite disturbing though morbidly fascinating.
 
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4x4toy

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Nothing substantive about ID theory in it--it's just the usual ignorant slanderous rant about how evolution is atheistic.
If you are going to teach ID, you have to actually teach ID.

I think you have no leg to stand on and you know it :oldthumbsup:
 
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