5 Challenges to Trump's Wall

[TLK Valentine]

your device is better than mine...I am constantly being corrected on words put in correctly the first time...

If your device doesn't know the word "patrol," you might want to consider an upgrade.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Right -- those are called "affirmative defenses" -- insanity and self-defense are the prime examples.

In both those cases, the facts of the case are not in dispute... Bob did kill Joe, but Bob either wasn't in his right mind, or was defending himself.

The defense of "It wasn't me; I didn't do it; you got the wrong guy" is not an affirmative defense... and that's the defense that they're going to bring up if you accuse them of coming into the country illegally.

We are not accusing them of any crime other than being here illegally. They can be convicted of one crime and serve their time, and then can deported if they cannot prove who they are.

 

[blackribbon]

Well, we cannot catch them all, but if they KNOW that any misstep could get them deported they will either be VERY careful or not come here. As for claiming to be born here there ARE ways of checking that out. One option would be making that a defense which the ACCUSED has to prove. In other words make them prove they were born here.

It is easy to prove that you were born in the US...the birth certificate. All babies get them...and all legal babies get a social security card so their parents can claim them on taxes. One of my kids was born at home and I still had no problem getting a birth certificate or copies when I needed extra.

 

[LoAmmi]

How much do we annually spend on supporting, putting illegals through the criminal justice system, and related crime? As for the borders, I suspect that like on public waterways, the US already owns a certain amount of footage from the border in so, no that isn't likely an expense.

There are miles and miles and miles of shore line in the United States and there will be no wall on them. No fence, nothing at all to stop someone from coming up in a small boat and getting out and walking into the country. Some kind of boarder wall isn't a viable solution.
If Trump is serious about this, he will be willing to hurt US businesses that hire illegals. My guess is that he won't be willing to do that because it's far easier to demonize a group of people that a lot don't already like than cost businesses millions of dollars.

 

[TLK Valentine]

We are not accusing them of any crime other than being here illegally.

You're accusing them of entering this country illegally. You need to prove they did that.

They can be convicted of one crime and serve their time, and then can deported if they cannot prove who they are.

Our country doesn't work that way -- when the government accuses you of a crime, they have to prove you did it.

"Innocent until presumed guilty in a court of law..." what else are you ready to throw out in the name of... what, exactly?

 

[blackribbon]

There are miles and miles and miles of shore line in the United States and there will be no wall on them. No fence, nothing at all to stop someone from coming up in a small boat and getting out and walking into the country. Some kind of boarder wall isn't a viable solution.
If Trump is serious about this, he will be willing to hurt US businesses that hire illegals. My guess is that he won't be willing to do that because it's far easier to demonize a group of people that a lot don't already like than cost businesses millions of dollars.

First of all, it is ILLEGAL to hire illegal immigrants...so yes, I would expect the government to hurt these businesses (and they already do go after businesses that do this).

Second, the Rio Grande has a river bank where a fence could be built. However, just because there are places that are harder to guard, doesn't mean we ignore the rest of the border? Luckily we live in a world where electronic surveillance is also a viable option in areas that just can't physically maintain a fence/wall.

Let me guess....you don't live anywhere near one of these borders, do you? I used to live in Texas but now live close enough to the Canadian border that I work with people that cross the border daily. I have never worried about any Canadian gangs moving into my neighborhood. Not a issue. They have the proper paperwork in place to go to school or work here.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You're accusing them of entering this country illegally. You need to prove they did that.



Our country doesn't work that way -- when the government accuses you of a crime, they have to prove you did it.

"Innocent until presumed guilty in a court of law..." what else are you ready to throw out in the name of... what, exactly?

If they are illegally here then they are breaking the law by BEING here. Any other crime takes some sort of action other than just standing there.

 

[LoAmmi]

First of all, it is ILLEGAL to hire illegal immigrants...so yes, I would expect the government to hurt these businesses (and they already do go after businesses that do this).

Second, the Rio Grande has a river bank where a fence could be built. However, just because there are places that are harder to guard, doesn't mean we ignore the rest of the border? Luckily we live in a world where electronic surveillance is also a viable option in areas that just can't physically maintain a fence/wall.

Let me guess....you don't live anywhere near one of these borders, do you? I used to live in Texas but now live close enough to the Canadian border that I work with people that cross the border daily. I have never worried about any Canadian gangs moving into my neighborhood. Not a issue. They have the proper paperwork in place to go to school or work here.

I'll just hang onto my "told you so" when the wall/fence doesn't work.

 

[blackribbon]

I'll just hang onto my "told you so" when the wall/fence doesn't work.

YOu do that. In the meantime, the statistics show that it has worked in the regions it was built. It will also help if we are allowed to actually enforce our laws against illegals who are here.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If they are illegally here then they are breaking the law by BEING here. Any other crime takes some sort of action other than just standing there.

You're claiming that their ACTION of crossing the border isn't a crime, but their very EXISTENCE on this side of it is?

Did you think this through?

 

[blackribbon]

You're claiming that their ACTION of crossing the border isn't a crime, but their very EXISTENCE on this side of it is?

Did you think this through?

Both are illegal activities...

 

[dogs4thewin]

You're claiming that their ACTION of crossing the border isn't a crime, but their very EXISTENCE on this side of it is?

Did you think this through?

The ACTION of crossing the border IS a crime, but the fact that they committed that crime means that no matter WHAT they are doing while here they are committing a crime as opposed to otherwise where simply being here is not in and of itself a criminal action.

 

[TLK Valentine]

First of all, it is ILLEGAL to hire illegal immigrants...so yes, I would expect the government to hurt these businesses (and they already do go after businesses that do this).

Its also ILLEGAL to shoot heroin between your toes... the government does a bang-up job of stopping it, don't they?

Second, the Rio Grande has a river bank where a fence could be built.

Funny thing about riverbanks, they have an annoying tendency to flood. And when they do, they tend to wash away stuff that was built on them... including fences.

However, just because there are places that are harder to guard, doesn't mean we ignore the rest of the border? Luckily we live in a world where electronic surveillance is also a viable option in areas that just can't physically maintain a fence/wall.

The "virtual fence" is already used in many locations along the border... who told you it wasn't?

Catch-22, chief -- either the virtual fence works, which makes a real one unnecessary, or it doesn't work, which means it still won't.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Its also ILLEGAL to shoot heroin between your toes... the government does a bang-up job of stopping it, don't they?



Funny thing about riverbanks, they have an annoying tendency to flood. And when they do, they tend to wash away stuff that was built on them... including fences.




The "virtual fence" is already used in many locations along the border... who told you it wasn't?

Catch-22, chief -- either the virtual fence works, which makes a real one unnecessary, or it doesn't work, which means it still won't.

but they also tend to be more dangerous to cross.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The ACTION of crossing the border IS a crime, but the fact that they committed that crime means that no matter WHAT they are doing while here they are committing a crime as opposed to otherwise where simply being here is not in and of itself a criminal action.

You're missing the point entirely... You have to prove the fact that they committed a crime in a court of law.

I can't stress this absurdly simple fact about the American legal system enough: The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the government to prove that the accused COMMITTED the crime.

 

[Armoured]

Well, paroles can also be added.

How much will that cost?

 

[TLK Valentine]

but they also tend to be more dangerous to cross.

"More dangerous" how? We're talking about cameras, not land mines.

...or is that the next step? (so to speak)

 

[Armoured]

Well, maybe if we had paroles that would shoot them if caught that would deter more, as well.

Did you seriously just suggest summary execution for illegal border crossing?

Wow.

 

[Armoured]

"More dangerous" how? We're talking about cameras, not land mines.

...or is that the next step? (so to speak)

Don't give ideas

 

[LoAmmi]

YOu do that. In tililt. It will also help if we are allowed to actually enforce our laws against illegals who are here.

You still have to account for people who come into the country legally and then just overstay. I think estimates are half of people here illegally have done just that. A wall doesn't fix them. The long term fix, in my opinion, are laws that nearly bankrupt a business for employing an illegal.

That, combined with efforts to stop the crazy "war on drugs" that helps create more crime than it stops, ease poverty, help with jobs training, and bring back jobs will fix many of the problems we face.

A wall, a fence won't. It will be a nice symbol for people while nothing changes. But it feels good so we go with it. I wish we'd move away from what feels good.

BTW: pointing out Israel doesn't necessarily work. Israel has different goals with securing that portion of its boarder.