I'd rather take my instruction from Christ's clear testimony than misinterpreted Pauline texts...
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Is Observing the 7th day Sabbath a Requirement for Salvation?
- Thread starter Bob S
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Hello, since Im responding to you...guess its ok...
Jesus fullfilled the law....and while I believe the law is not the source of salvation but the course......The source is Christ..Love is the key.....It is not about trying to keep the law from the flesh........but internally through the spirit becoming the type of people that naturally establish it...
The inside is made right ...then the outside....The law of love ....is key....For love seeks not its own, love holds no records of wrong, it boast not, It has hope for all things...etc...
Its; if by the spirit we put away the deeds of the flesh we shall live....
Live.
And we don't put away the deeds of the flesh...by the flesh but by heeding to the spirit...creating habits of the spirit that should define who we are more and more.....
............
P.s.
Paul did not have an "aversion" [dislike] to the law..you quoting Romans 7;6 shows that...
And just reading Romans itself shows that.
The letter of the law....leaves no room for grace.....
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I think if you ask Jesus....He would state whats in his word.
2. It states He is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe...
But what about for those who do not believe...?
But the law is still needed....for 1 it points out sin.
And...my other personal thought is that those that are not in Christ will be judged by the law; meaning death[seperation from God resides over them]
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."
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Shibolet
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Very good! I mean, if you are honest enough to mean what you say. A prime testimony of Jesus was that he came to fulfill and confirm the Law down to the letter and that all the commandments of the Law would remain until heaven and earth passed away. (Mat. 5:17-19) Are you ready to take that clear testimony of Jesus? And for instructions, he said that to achieve salvation, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. Nu! Are you ready to listen to those instructions of Jesus? (Luke 16:29-31)
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- Nov 21, 2008
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Nope. you are most welcomed here - we just don't get many Jews on this SDA forum section. Always glad to talk with you even if we differ on some things.
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You realize you are talking to a Seventh-day Adventist -- who believes in keeping the Sabbath, in not eating the unclean meats identified in Leviticus 11 etc -- right?
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Shibolet
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Jesus did not state that he was the end of the Law. Rather the opposite is true that the Law would end only after heaven and earth passed away. (Mat.
5:17-19) Paul was the one who declared that Jesus was the end of the Law if you read Romans 10:4. So, between Jesus and Paul, I don't think you have a better option than that of Jesus. Ain't I right?
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Shibolet
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Please Kori, no offense meant but, Jesus is no longer in the condition to be the source of any thing if you read Ecclesiastes 9:5,6.
Kori, love does not acknowledge laws. Love is an emotion and, emotions do
not respond to laws. If someone loves something or someone, there is no law in the world that will stop him or her. Don't worry, HaShem knows it.
Are you sure! The opposite is rather true that the Law was given to us as a result of God's grace. Now, as Paul is concerned, he relegated the Law to his mind only while serving sin in his flesh if you read Romans 7:25. This was akin to serving two masters if I must remind you of. Do you have any idea why?
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Eccl 9 argues against the modern concept of "immortal soul". So to that extent we do agree. However God is immortal as I think everyone agrees. The son of God in this case is not Adam who was fully human and not God incarnate - but in this case it is Jesus who is God-man -- fully God, fully man. "In him dwells all the fullness of the godhead in bodily form". Now it is certain that in Eccl 9 - Solomon is not talking about the God-man state of a person in death. Jesus said "I have power to lay down my life - and I have power to take it up again".
John 10:18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
Here is a claim that puts the one who makes it at risk being proven wrong - but He is saying that after His public execution... after he is in the tomb... on the third day... He will raise Himself from the dead. All they would have to do on the 4th day to prove Him wrong - is go to His tomb and say -- "see -- He is still there".
Notice that when Jesus was resurrected - both the Roman guards and the Jewish leaders opposed to Christ - agreed He was not in the tomb any longer on the 3rd day. And they both agreed that a Roman guard has stationed around the tomb to prevent that.
What is also clear is that his closes followers were 'hiding in the upper room for fear of the Jews" at this same time.
No human could raise himself. In the Tanakh (OT) you have Elisha raising people from the dead - but you don't have the dead raising themselves. That does not happen in all of scripture - except in the case of the God-man Jesus.
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In Romans 3 Paul says 'All have sinned' -- and both Jews and Christians agree with that.
In Romans 6 Paul says you are a slave of the one that you obey - either of sin resulting in death - or obedience to God and eternal life. Romans 6 ends with this "The wages of sin is death" -- but the "gift of God is eternal life".
In Romans 7 Paul addresses the case of the lost - married to the law - convicted of sin - and having no savior. Then Paul shows how such a person is convicted of the fact that the Law if God is good - but that they have sinned. He says in that chapter that the law of sin and death is in their members but with their mind once their eyes are opened - they choose the Law of God. But Paul ends the chapter saying that this is a horrible condition and that escape from it is needed.
ENTER - Romans 8 .
Paul says that the lost - the wicked "do not and indeed can not " submit to the Law of God - but those who are born-again and walk by the Spirit do walk in obedience not in rebellion.
Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
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Shibolet
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I agree with that too but because I have it from Ecclesiastes 7:20. "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned."
In that case, Paul was a slave of sin in his flesh if you read Romans 7:25. Obedience to God does not guarantee eternal life because the attribute of eternal life belongs with HaShem only. (Genesis 3:22,23; Psalm 118:1-4)
Whenever did Paul's eyes ever get open and he chose God's Law? I don't have that anywhere in the NT. BTW, Romans 7 is an allegory about the widow who got free of the law that subjected her to her late husband with his death. The allegory would point to freedom from the Law with the death of Jesus.
Obviously, the Law was given for the salvation of the sinner and not for the enjoyment of the righteous. If this were a world of righteous people, we would have no need of the Law.
The reason is obvious why Paul declared to have been released from the Law. (Romans 7:6) but, then again, how could he declare that he could not help but serve sin in the flesh? (Romans 7:25) It is only obvious that he had
his mind set on the flesh and was all his life hostile to God.
How could Paul have belonged to "Christ" if he could not have the spirit of "Christ?" Yes, because Jesus said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law according to Luke 16:29-31 and since Paul claimed to have been released from the Law, he had no further need to listen to "Moses" aka the Law.Was Jesus mistaken? HaShem did not raise Jesus from the dead against His decision to banish Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Genesis 3:22,23)
If that's true, how do you explain the fact that Paul live according to the flesh? (Romans 7:25)
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Shibolet
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To HaShem there is no difference between modern and ancient. Immortality belongs with HaShem only. I am aware that the Son of God was not Adam but Israel if HaShem was telling the truth when He said, "Israel is My Son." (Exodus 4:22,23) Jesus was fully human and he was himself aware that HaShem is of an absolute Oneness. So, Jesus could not be God. Then, if Jesus had the power to lay down his life, why would he pray thrice in the Gethsemane asking HaShem not to have him walk the Via Dolorosa?
An empty tomb is no proof of resurrection but of the fact that one had been raised from there. Now, how he was raised is the issue to discuss and I think I have told you how.
And did they prevent the removal of Jesus from there? If you ask me, they spent all their time watching an already empty tomb. Don't forget that hey were set there to watch Sabbath morning and not too late because Pilate was never caring enough to the requests of the Jewish authorities. IMHO, Jesus had been raised sometime in the curse of the night
What I know is that his disciples had deserted Jesus when he was arrested in the Gethsemane and kept on hiding until the women brought the news that Jesus had been raised from the tomb and that none of them believed them. They rather thought they were out of their minds with their nonsense.
(Luke 24:11) Why? Because they were Jewish and resurrection to the Jews was an alien event.
Elisha raised no one from the dead. What he did was resuscitation of a boy who had got a sunstroke. (II Kings 4:34) You guys, not me, are the ones who say that Jesus resurrected. What I say is that the same man aka Joseph of Arimathea who laid Jesus to rest, return to raise him from there with the help of Nicodemus who had brought with him 100 pounds of medications to band Jesus' wounds. (John 19:39) I wish you could stop referring to Jesus as a god-man because it only reminds me of the Greek myth of the demigod which was the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:18)[/QUOTE]
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I believe too, that when He says who will save us from this body of death...
It is a response to overcoming through the spirit.
And definitely if Christ didn't have the victory over death, there wouldn't be victory through him .
1 peter 3; 19-26...or so
Explains the Baptism that saves us now....And the Ark was A symbol of it....The answer to a clear conscience before God, found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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If one used your same logic above what you say they believed it to mean, then what about this example about the seed....about what seed the Pharasees thought the scripture was speaking about....we know they thought nothing about the "seed" meaning one...Jesus..of faith....
They thought because they were of Abraham's lineage they were set...for life.
So in many cases when it comes to interpretation...We can't look at it in terms of what they thought it meant...but through the revelation of what it was intended to mean.....
You can use that Even...with addressing the Melinnial kingdom....just because it was ..what they thought it meant doesn't mean that's what was meant...certain things may be meant to be stumbling blocks...
Even words have meaning and metephors then, that some take in their literal sense today........I'm ok with being wrong...for Im learning.....
Then too, some passages we are ever to quick to view because of our lenses....
As for the sabbath....I can say...I haven't studied much in view of old testament passages to have a full scope...but Im open to view why people believe we should keep it today?
My belief is Christ is our "sabbath" rest....
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You are right that there will be differences in POV - and each person will claim that God is leading them , guiding them in their own POV. So some external "objective" method is needed - as we see in the principles outlined for exegesis. It is a "remove your bias of tradition/preference/ and try to discover what the writer is saying" approach that by definition we are not going to 100% perfect at doing. And we recognize it.
True. almost every doctrinal statement is going to have objections from one group or another. It is like saying "diet and exercise is the key to good health and weight" ... we all know it... we all strive for it .. but we all do not get there. Rather we approximate it or we "improve" by staying focused on such discipline. We don't claim to be perfect at it.
The option "not reasonable" is to say 'forget diet and exercise and you will be healthy anyway'. So then we don't have "forget objective exegesis and you will be accurate anyway".
Let's take two examples -- Isaiah 56:1-8 where gentiles are specifically blessed for Bible Sabbath keeping
and
Isaiah 66;23 where we are told that for all eternity - after the cross... in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship".
The "Apparent meaning" of the text to the writer and to his contemporary readers is pretty obvious. He is talking about the real 7th day Sabbath of the Ten commandments and worship set on that cycle for all eternity -
This makes sense on the face of it - because it is doubtful that all the universe cancels all events every day - and just shows up before God for corp worship every day--- doing nothing else that day. Isaiah appears to be going for the 6 days you shall labor but the 7th day is the Sabbath idea - that we also see in exodus 20:11 pointing back to Genesis 2:1-4 for Adam and Eve before the fall,... before the entrance of sin.
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Yes 2 Cor 3 -- a chapter that appears to affirm the 'New Covenant' -- which we find in Jeremiah 31:31-33, God writing "My Law on their heart and mind". 2Cor 3 points out that instead of that law "external on stone" (which is where it is for the lost) it is in the place that the NEW Covenant puts it -- on the heart and mind "I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh" -
The moral law of God defines sin-vs-righteousness "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT. As we see in Romans 3:19-21
For for example - even though we have Exodus 20:7 "do no take God's name in vain" in the Old Covenant - written on tablets of stone -- yet even under the Jeremiah 31:31-33 "New Covenant" it remains true that the saints would be sinning if they were to take God's name in vain.
Even though we have the OT "Love God with all your heart" included in the LAW of God Deut 6:5 and also binding under the Old Covenant - yet it remains for the saints even in the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10 to obey that command. It did not get deleted - it got written on the heart and mind.
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