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Understanding Evolution [moved from P&LS]

TBDude65

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This topic is intended to do two things:
1) Figure out what people do and don't understand about the Theory of Evolution (what they accept as true vs what they don't accept)

&

2) Figure out what information people commonly use as source material for their views on evolution



So, for people who do not accept evolution (or who posit some additional supernatural element to it, like adding a creator/designer that "guides" or "directs" evolution), what is it about the Theory of Evolution you do not accept and why? In addition to this, what resources do you (or have you) explored with respect to the science? (books, journals, classes, degrees, blogs, news sites, etc).


In addition to the latter question, what do you think the reliability is of the sources people choose? Are all sources equal? Are only sources that agree with your opinion reliable? What makes one source better than another source?
 

John Hyperspace

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This topic is intended to do two things:
1) Figure out what people do and don't understand about the Theory of Evolution (what they accept as true vs what they don't accept)
&
2) Figure out what information people commonly use as source material for their views on evolution

So, for people who do not accept evolution (or who posit some additional supernatural element to it, like adding a creator/designer that "guides" or "directs" evolution), what is it about the Theory of Evolution you do not accept and why? In addition to this, what resources do you (or have you) explored with respect to the science? (books, journals, classes, degrees, blogs, news sites, etc).

The reason I don't accept the Theory of Evolution is because I cannot actually verify any of it since it happened outside of common experience. To accept the theory means that I have to fully rely on the abilities of other men to evaluate evidence without bias, and to operate with fully competent reasoning. I see no reason whatsoever to do this. I am fully experienced with the abysmally deficient ability of men to reason with any basic form of competency, and am fully aware that bias runs rampant through all investigation. Note that this is not to say that no man can reason competently, or that all men are consumed with bias: but that both of these are a consuming disease in all fields of investigation; thus drowning out any men who may be unbiased and competent.

This is why I do not accept the Theory of Evolution.

In addition to the latter question, what do you think the reliability is of the sources people choose? Are all sources equal? Are only sources that agree with your opinion reliable? What makes one source better than another source?

This is an excellent question, and the crux of why I reject all forms of theoretic science; there is no objective way to determine any of these things, therefore all belief in all theoretic science is based solely on relative subjective perception of the investigator. Add into this that no approximation in any of these fields has any meaningful substance to contribute to mankind, and all theoretical science becomes both impossible to verify in any meaningful way, and even useless in such verification.

I am willing only to say of all theoretic models "It is possible" but in the end "I neither know nor care": note this is in relation to all such theoretic models, secular or otherwise: I do not accept "young earth/old earth creationism theory" for the same reasons. I view all debate on such subjects no different than the proverbial tale full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.
 
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TBDude65

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HI dude,

#1 - I understand the entire theory. I don't accept any of it as true.

#2 - God's word. (that's a period after that source)

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Wait, your "understanding" of the Scientific Theory of Evolution is from the Bible and you think that means you understand all of it? What sources OUTSIDE your religion have you considered?

I am a paleontologist and I would never claim to understand all of evolution because I haven't extensively studied all of it. So it is a pretty bold claim to say you do.
 
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TBDude65

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The reason I don't accept the Theory of Evolution is because I cannot actually verify any of it since it happened outside of common experience. To accept the theory means that I have to fully rely on the abilities of other men to evaluate evidence without bias, and to operate with fully competent reasoning. I see no reason whatsoever to do this. I am fully experienced with the abysmally deficient ability of men to reason with any basic form of competency, and am fully aware that bias runs rampant through all investigation. Note that this is not to say that no man can reason competently, or that all men are consumed with bias: but that both of these are a consuming disease in all fields of investigation; thus drowning out any men who may be unbiased and competent.

This is why I do not accept the Theory of Evolution.



This is an excellent question, and the crux of why I reject all forms of theoretic science; there is no objective way to determine any of these things, therefore all belief in all theoretic science is based solely on relative subjective perception of the investigator. Add into this that no approximation in any of these fields has any meaningful substance to contribute to mankind, and all theoretical science becomes both impossible to verify in any meaningful way, and even useless in such verification.

I am willing only to say of all theoretic models "It is possible" but in the end "I neither know nor care": note this is in relation to all such theoretic models, secular or otherwise: I do not accept "young earth/old earth creationism theory" for the same reasons. I view all debate on such subjects no different than the proverbial tale full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.

"The reason I don't accept the Theory of Evolution is because I cannot actually verify any of it since it happened outside of common experience."

So you only accept things as true if you have personally experienced it? Do you believe it is possible for an asteroid to hit the Earth and create a mass extinction like it did at the end of the Cretaceous with the dinosaurs, or do you think that it isn't possible because you have never personally experienced a large mass extinction causing asteroid impact? Do you believe physicists and chemists when they show models of the structures of molecules, or reject it since you can't personally see the actual individual molecules?

"To accept the theory means that I have to fully rely on the abilities of other men to evaluate evidence without bias, and to operate with fully competent reasoning."

I posit that you do this with many other things in your life (like going to the doctor when sick or an accountant when tax time rolls around or a mechanic when your car is in need of repair, etc), so why is it hard for you to accept a scientists opinion on evolution but not on another theory you do accept? (like gravity or the Periodic table, etc)

"I am fully experienced with the abysmally deficient ability of men to reason with any basic form of competency, and am fully aware that bias runs rampant through all investigation. Note that this is not to say that no man can reason competently, or that all men are consumed with bias: but that both of these are a consuming disease in all fields of investigation; thus drowning out any men who may be unbiased and competent."

Does this mean that you believe that you and your reasoning are better and more competent and free of biases when compared with that of a scientist's with respect to theory of evolution?

"

This is an excellent question, and the crux of why I reject all forms of theoretic science; there is no objective way to determine any of these things, therefore all belief in all theoretic science is based solely on relative subjective perception of the investigator. Add into this that no approximation in any of these fields has any meaningful substance to contribute to mankind, and all theoretical science becomes both impossible to verify in any meaningful way, and even useless in such verification."


There is "no objective way to determine any of these things" is quite a bold statement. How did you determine that this statement is objectively true?

(also, you seem to have completely skipped my question about where you get your source information from)

"I am willing only to say of all theoretic models "It is possible" but in the end "I neither know nor care": note this is in relation to all such theoretic models, secular or otherwise: I do not accept "young earth/old earth creationism theory" for the same reasons. I view all debate on such subjects no different than the proverbial tale full of sound and fury; signifying nothing."

Curious. So you reject "theoretic models" because they can't be (in your mind) verified? So you don't accept the model of the atom or models of molecules or models of the solar system or models of the Earth? I mean, every map you have ever used is a model of the Earth in essence. The way the map is constructed is based on a theoretical scientific framework. So why does a model that tells you how to get from point A to point B become valid, but a scientific model on the diversity and relationships among living and fossil taxa is invalid?
 
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Subduction Zone

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The reason I don't accept the Theory of Evolution is because I cannot actually verify any of it since it happened outside of common experience. To accept the theory means that I have to fully rely on the abilities of other men to evaluate evidence without bias, and to operate with fully competent reasoning. I see no reason whatsoever to do this. I am fully experienced with the abysmally deficient ability of men to reason with any basic form of competency, and am fully aware that bias runs rampant through all investigation. Note that this is not to say that no man can reason competently, or that all men are consumed with bias: but that both of these are a consuming disease in all fields of investigation; thus drowning out any men who may be unbiased and competent.

This is why I do not accept the Theory of Evolution.



This is an excellent question, and the crux of why I reject all forms of theoretic science; there is no objective way to determine any of these things, therefore all belief in all theoretic science is based solely on relative subjective perception of the investigator. Add into this that no approximation in any of these fields has any meaningful substance to contribute to mankind, and all theoretical science becomes both impossible to verify in any meaningful way, and even useless in such verification.

I am willing only to say of all theoretic models "It is possible" but in the end "I neither know nor care": note this is in relation to all such theoretic models, secular or otherwise: I do not accept "young earth/old earth creationism theory" for the same reasons. I view all debate on such subjects no different than the proverbial tale full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.

Though it is impossible for one man to check out all of the scientific evidence for the theory of evolution it is possible for you to thoroughly check out any one claim. It may require a bit of education on your part, but you could do so over and over again until you had convinced yourself. The scientific method works because we are not going merely on the claims of men. It is based upon the claims of men that have been tested time after time by many other men (and women of course). Whenever a scientist comes up with something new and interesting he publishes an article on it. That article is checked for basic errors by his peers. If it is at all important the claims themselves will be checked out by other scientists. No new idea in science comes on the scene full blown these days.

To deny the theory of evolution you have to deny reality.
 
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miamited

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Hi dude,

No, my understanding of the scientific theory of evolution is from the works of science. What I believe to be the truth is God's word.

Those who belong to the Lord can make bold claims. They know the truth.

You claim to be an atheist. Friend, God's word says that it is a fool who says in his heart that there is no God. Now, you can believe that or not, but that is what God says about you. You are a fool according to God. Now, you want to carry on a discussion about evolution, but I agree with God.

So, let's start this discussion with you understanding that I believe that God has told me the truth about you.

Have you ever studied the Scriptures? I was once like you. I believed in evolution. It's what most school districts teach these days so it's hard to get out of high school without having some knowledge about the science. However, at the age of forty, I was born again. Born of the Spirit of the living God. My entire worldview changed. Yes, I've kept abreast of a lot of the 'new and improved' scientific findings regarding evolution, but unfortunately, God already has my heart and has given me some of the wisdom, knowledge and discernment that is his to give.

Jesus said that it is the Holy Spirits job to lead those who are his into 'all' truth. You believe that you know the truth without the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Friend, if you ever decide to really study the Scriptures, you'll find out some very amazing things about God and what He has created and His purpose in creating.

The Scriptures start out explaining that God created this realm. He merely spoke and things that were not, became. Now, let me encourage you, if you are so inclined to really know the truth or would even just entertain ideas that oppose your own, to read Chapter one in Genesis and then turn all the way to the back of the Scriptures to chapter 21 in the Revelation. Merely ten minutes of reading for most people. Surely you wouldn't begrudge an old man ten minutes of your precious lifetime.

Genesis 1 tells us that God created all things in this realm and Revelation 21 tells us why God created all things in this realm. Between those two pieces of Scripture is life upon the earth and all that God has done to make Himself known to you so that you will be a part of God's ultimate purpose.

The Scriptures tell us that God raised up a man by the name of Abraham, through whom He would raise up a nation of people who would do His bidding upon the earth. Yes, they failed miserably and often, but they were mere humans in the hand of a loving God and despite their often failing, they did accomplish God's task for them. They brought into the world the Scriptures. Paul confirms this for us in his letter to the Romans. He begins chapter 3 in telling us that the greatest value in being a Jew was that they were entrusted with the very words of God.

Throughout those same Scriptures can be found a plethora of prophecies, but the most important are the ones that speak about a Savior or Messiah to come. Someone that God is going to send, whose death would atone for our personal sins. The first and greatest law that we all break is the one about loving God with all that we are.

You, friend, have broken that law. I have also. However, God's justice says that if we will repent of our sin and turn back to Him, then we can be a part of those who God is speaking to in Revelation chapter 21.

However, God has also been quite clear that the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing. How does all that I've written above sound to you?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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John Hyperspace

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"The reason I don't accept the Theory of Evolution is because I cannot actually verify any of it since it happened outside of common experience."

So you only accept things as true if you have personally experienced it? Do you believe it is possible for an asteroid to hit the Earth and create a mass extinction like it did at the end of the Cretaceous with the dinosaurs, or do you think that it isn't possible because you have never personally experienced a large mass extinction causing asteroid impact?

Your statement "like it did at the end of the Cretaceous with the dinosaurs" is an example of bias. There is no way for you to verify this claim (it is even disputed in theoretic science) yet you seem to regard it as "fact": this is generally one of the problems, many like you in the field, consumed with bias, and speaking theoretic as fact. This is a prime example of why I do not accept the Theory of Evolution. There is no way to determine how deep this bias runs, and as such the entire enterprise is contaminated causing all theory to become highly questionable.

However, I would regard your hypothesis as "possible" in the same way I would regard "aliens crashed a saucer" as "possible" or "the cosmos is 6,000 years old" as "possible" or "elves carry raindrops down in magic handkerchiefs" as "possible": yet all without meaningful support, as are all untested hypotheses.

Do you believe physicists and chemists when they show models of the structures of molecules, or reject it since you can't personally see the actual individual molecules?

I do not accept the models of the structure of molecules; nor of any atomic or subatomic particles.

I posit that you do this with many other things in your life (like going to the doctor when sick or an accountant when tax time rolls around or a mechanic when your car is in need of repair, etc), so why is it hard for you to accept a scientists opinion on evolution but not on another theory you do accept? (like gravity or the Periodic table, etc)

I don't go to the doctor, pay no taxes and repair my own car. But you are confusing hypotheses with facts. Gravity is a fact and a theory. I accept the fact, as I witness it myself; I do not accept the theory. The periodic table is a categorizing which is true by self-definition much like any categorizing is done. A hypothesis is not the same as these things; but is a speculation without verifiable evidence to be evaluated with a specific procedure.

"I am fully experienced with the abysmally deficient ability of men to reason with any basic form of competency, and am fully aware that bias runs rampant through all investigation. Note that this is not to say that no man can reason competently, or that all men are consumed with bias: but that both of these are a consuming disease in all fields of investigation; thus drowning out any men who may be unbiased and competent."

Does this mean that you believe that you and your reasoning are better and more competent and free of biases when compared with that of a scientist's with respect to theory of evolution?

It's not possible for me to evaluate the hypothesis; I don't have access to the resources required. I trust my own abilities to reason correctly, but not others, unless demonstrated to be reliable in a meaningful manner. Even then, I would always evaluate their hypotheses and evidences before accepting any legitimacy of model.

This is an excellent question, and the crux of why I reject all forms of theoretic science; there is no objective way to determine any of these things, therefore all belief in all theoretic science is based solely on relative subjective perception of the investigator. Add into this that no approximation in any of these fields has any meaningful substance to contribute to mankind, and all theoretical science becomes both impossible to verify in any meaningful way, and even useless in such verification."

There is "no objective way to determine any of these things" is quite a bold statement. How did you determine that this statement is objectively true?

Self-experience.

(also, you seem to have completely skipped my question about where you get your source information from)

Source information for?

"I am willing only to say of all theoretic models "It is possible" but in the end "I neither know nor care": note this is in relation to all such theoretic models, secular or otherwise: I do not accept "young earth/old earth creationism theory" for the same reasons. I view all debate on such subjects no different than the proverbial tale full of sound and fury; signifying nothing."

Curious. So you reject "theoretic models" because they can't be (in your mind) verified? So you don't accept the model of the atom or models of molecules or models of the solar system of models of the Earth? I mean, every map you have ever used is a model of the Earth in essence. The way the map is constructed is based on a theoretical scientific framework. So why does a model that tells you how to get from point A to point B become valid, but a scientific model on the diversity and relationships among living and fossil taxa is invalid?

The veracity of the map is able to be verified. It is a representation of the present, and not the distant past. I accept that men are able to competently see what is in front of their eyes in the present. No reasoning is involved, and bias is impossible. It is not man's ability to use his senses in the present that I call into question; it is man's ability to competently reason (and without bias) concerning things that cannot be reproduced and which happen/ed outside of common experience.

As well, I draw a clear distinction between theoretic science, and, applied science. Rigorous repetition in a laboratory environment is a good way to strip away incompetent reasoning and emotional bias which are free to run rampant outside of the ability to rigorously repeat; as someone once said, "Science without contact with the laboratory is an enterprise likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjecture" (though my acceptance of even this rigorous pursuit will be on a case by case basis but has a chance of acceptance)
 
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miamited

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Hi SZ,

You wrote:
To deny the theory of evolution you have to deny reality.

Now, I'm sure that you believe that to be a true statement. I don't. I fully deny the theory of evolution and yet I have a firm grasp on reality. What you really mean to say is that to deny the theory of evolution, you have to deny that many current scientific models that attempt to explain it are wrong.

How you somehow are able to tie denying an explanation of 'how and why' things upon the earth are as we see them today, to denying reality,
is a bit out of my comprehension.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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John Hyperspace

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Though it is impossible for one man to check out all of the scientific evidence for the theory of evolution it is possible for you to thoroughly check out any one claim.

The Theory of Evolution cannot be "checked out"; all that can be done is to produce "evidence" which may or may not support the theoretic which can never be verified. Give me an example even of an "evidence" of which I could "check out" and, what "evidence" you have "checked out" if you would.

To deny the theory of evolution you have to deny reality.

This is a completely unsupported and fantastical statement showing extreme bias and lack of regard for both logic and reason. Reality is that which I experience; not that which you hypothesize.
 
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expos4ever

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I am fully experienced with the abysmally deficient ability of men to reason with any basic form of competency, and am fully aware that bias runs rampant through all investigation.
Does this analysis square with the facts? If humans cannot "reason with any basic form of competency", how do you account for the following:

1. Many diseases have been defeated (e.g smallpox) and others are "on the run" (e.g. many forms of cancer);
2. We have landed a man on the moon;
3. We have two sophisticated, complex fundamental theories of physics that perform alarmingly well against observation;
4. We have understood DNA - the fundamental building block of life and have developed, or are developing, therapies that leverage this knowledge;
5. etc., etc.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Hi SZ,

You wrote:


Now, I'm sure that you believe that to be a true statement. I don't. I fully deny the theory of evolution and yet I have a firm grasp on reality. What you really mean to say is that to deny the theory of evolution, you have to deny that many current scientific models that attempt to explain it are wrong.

How you somehow are able to tie denying an explanation of 'how and why' things upon the earth are as we see them today, to denying reality,
is a bit out of my comprehension.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Like it or not denying evolution is on the same order as denying gravity. In fact many will point out that we have more scientific evidence supporting the theory of evolution than we have supporting the theory of gravity. I am fairly sure that you would say that a person denying gravity was denying reality.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Does this analysis square with the facts? If humans cannot "reason with any basic form of competency", how do you account for the following:

1. Many diseases have been defeated (e.g smallpox) and others are "on the run" (e.g. many forms of cancer);
3. We have two sophisticated, complex fundamental theories of physics that perform alarmingly well against observation;
4. We have understood DNA - the fundamental building block of life and have developed, or are developing, therapies that leverage this knowledge;
5. etc., etc.

These are not theoretic science; they are applied, and work in the present; can be analyzed, evaluated, repeated and tested in the present. Physics is a mathematical description of facts.

2. We have landed a man on the moon;

Hearsay. I neither accept nor reject your hearsay.
 
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Subduction Zone

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The Theory of Evolution cannot be "checked out"; all that can be done is to produce "evidence" which may or may not support the theoretic which can never be verified. Give me an example even of an "evidence" of which I could "check out" and, what "evidence" you have "checked out" if you would.

That is how one "checks out" a scientific theory. And please, no scare quotes are necessary on evidence. The evidence for evolution is very clear. An easy example that no creationist has an explanation for that has not been thoroughly refuted is the fossil record. Of course you can't confirm the entire fossil record by yourself but what you can do is to go to any location where there is an outcrop that has fossils in it, identify the fossils in that bed and overly and underlying beds and see if they agree with what the theory of evolution predicts.

This is a completely unsupported and fantastical statement showing extreme bias and lack of regard for both logic and reason. Reality is that which I experience; not that which you hypothesize.


No, it is a simple fact. You may not understand it but that does not change the fact itself. And if you take a vaccine of any sort odds are that you are dependent upon the theory of evolution when you do. That is a personal experience of yours.[/QUOTE]
 
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expos4ever

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Hearsay. I neither accept nor reject your hearsay.
Clear code for the conspiracy-theory belief that the moon-landings were faked. This speaks volumes as to the other views you have expressed.
 
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Subduction Zone

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These are not theoretic science; they are applied, and work in the present; can be analyzed, evaluated, repeated and tested in the present. Physics is a mathematical description of facts.

Wrong, physics is an observational science just as biology is. The numbers may be a bit "harder" but they are far from being mathematically perfect.

Hearsay. I neither accept nor reject your hearsay.

So you don't know what hearsay is either. At least you don't reject hearsay because if that were the case you would reject the Bible.
 
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John Hyperspace

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That is how one "checks out" a scientific theory. And please, no scare quotes are necessary on evidence. The evidence for evolution is very clear. An easy example that no creationist has an explanation for that has not been thoroughly refuted is the fossil record. Of course you can't confirm the entire fossil record by yourself but what you can do is to go to any location where there is an outcrop that has fossils in it, identify the fossils in that bed and overly and underlying beds and see if they agree with what the theory of evolution predicts.

This is baseless rhetoric. Finding an outcropping of fossils will not yield any data but inanimate objects. Finding inanimate objects does nothing. Am I to presume you've done nothing in the way of verification of that theory you accept?

My reasoning for not becoming involved with testing of the Theory of Evolution is: I do not care whether it is true or not, and its veracity has no meaning to me. Therefore there is no reason for me to engage in meaningless pursuits yielding empty theory.

No, it is a simple fact. You may not understand it but that does not change the fact itself. And if you take a vaccine of any sort odds are that you are dependent upon the theory of evolution when you do. That is a personal experience of yours.

You are confusing the Theory of Evolution with the fact. The original post is clearly speaking of the theory. I presume you understand the difference? The fact of evolution is summarily: things change. This is axiomatic and not in any way, shape or form a scientific theory. Facts are datum.
 
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Jane_Doe

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This topic is intended to do two things:
1) Figure out what people do and don't understand about the Theory of Evolution (what they accept as true vs what they don't accept)

&

2) Figure out what information people commonly use as source material for their views on evolution



So, for people who do not accept evolution (or who posit some additional supernatural element to it, like adding a creator/designer that "guides" or "directs" evolution), what is it about the Theory of Evolution you do not accept and why? In addition to this, what resources do you (or have you) explored with respect to the science? (books, journals, classes, degrees, blogs, news sites, etc).


In addition to the latter question, what do you think the reliability is of the sources people choose? Are all sources equal? Are only sources that agree with your opinion reliable? What makes one source better than another source?
#1 Understand and believe the entire thing. It does not conflict with God as a Creator, because evolution only tells us the "how" God works a few of His wonders. Even then, our understanding of it extremely poor.

#2 Scientific peer reviewed journals. This is the current top-notch scientific understanding, which has much still to learn (which is acknowledged in journals).
 
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John Hyperspace

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Clear code for the conspiracy-theory belief that the moon-landings were faked. This speaks volumes as to the other views you have expressed.

It would only "speak volumes" to an uncritical thinker who doesn't know the difference between hearsay and evaluation of proposed hypotheses and subsequent theory.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Wrong, physics is an observational science just as biology is. The numbers may be a bit "harder" but they are far from being mathematically perfect.

Physics is a description of facts. You don't understand the difference between theory and fact. Why have you suddenly abandoned the Theory of Evolution in this discussion?

So you don't know what hearsay is either.

Hearsay is witness apart from observation. What do you think it is?
 
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